Scoutndad

Difficult spot but not unfamiliar. I liked your idea of assigning her the ADL. Although I don't think you were setting her up for failure, I don't think you are surprised at the results. I know it is not a lot of money, but you might be out if you offered to do all of that for her (chalk it up as a life lesson and I think we have all been down that path) but don't be afraid to request the money from her...the worse case scenario is that she says "no". Not sure if you really need an ADL or maybe a volunteer to help you track the scout advancements and activities. You may be "unorganized" (your words not mine and you may not be giving yourself enough credit), but you seem to assign tasks, plan meetings and prepare back-up plans...but in my book, you have 90% of DL job completed. Just ask a parent to help you track the scouts and maybe do some light typing (agendas, word search, internet surfing for ideas, etc.) and keep having a great time. You need to find a parent who shows up to your meetings consistently since it is that parent that is commited to their sons scouting and will look forward to becoming an active participant and quasi-ADL (soon to become full time ADL). You mentioned the tag issue a couple of times...boys will be boys and as long as they are not creating a distraction, hurting one another or are out of control, keep it going but start putting scouting into it (freeze tag with "safe" or "no tag zone" if they yell out a Tiger Scout requirement but can't repeat the last one mentioned). Keep up the great work and forget about the DM...you have just discovered someone more "unorganized" than you that will continue to have the same problems no matter where they go. Good Luck!

Anonymity more than security...hiding behind screen names drops the owners inhibitions and allows them to actively engage each other in forums without fear of reprecussion... And in the event someone does not agree with your theological or philosphical views, you won't expect them to show up on your next camping trip and knock over your tent... BriGuy?????Yeesh

Sorry...quitting is never an option...not now, not ever, especially if you have a scout involved. Semper has some great suggestions that I think you need to carefully consider. Don't compare one pack to the other...every pack has their own personality. Find your pack's "positive" personality and grow it. If the other Den Leaders or their spouses do not agree with your decisions, they were afforded the opportunity to step into the CM role and they declined...you stepped in, it is your Pack and you need to lead it with confidence and conviction. If anyone calls and complains, assign them the new task of resolving their complaints within BSA guidelines - ie if they do not like awards at Pack meetings and they want to hand them out every day of the week, then that person needs to be your Awards Leader and track every den and every scout - if they have time to complain, they have more than enough time to resolve. Out of 40 families, you aren't able to garner any additional support??? At your next Pack meeting, get some Boy Scouts to hold an outdoor or separate activity that will move all of the scouts to another spot in the building or outside and request the parents to stay behind and have a quick "town hall" discussion complete with AGENDA! No complaints, just important topics (volunteer leadership, training, awards, etc.) that need to be discussed and resolutions found. You will quickly find out that you have more allies than adversaries than you think, but be ready with your thick epidermis. If all else fails and you simply can not take it anymore, think of your son and the example you would set by quitting now, rather than finishing the year. Then simply announce two months prior to the last Pack meeting that you will need to step aside as CM to fulfill family obligations and that someone - anyone should approach you to fill your position. Offer to be asst CM if you still want to be involved. I applaud your efforts in stepping up into this role and I am sorry to hear that you have some leaders and parents that think they can push, bully and manipulate the Pack in to doing things their way...but hold your ground, keep doing the great job you are doing, and DON'T QUIT! Gauge your success on the scouts actions and not the parents reactions.

Thanks for the imagery CM Jerry...and the nightmares. Great quote full quiver... My wife feels the same way about the uniform and I might be trying to recapture what I was not part of as a youth...but in my eyes, the uniform is inherently geeky...not the scout... And yes, my wife sounds just like fleetfooteds wife...and yes, I speak to my wife and yes, she is an athlete and a collegiate national honor society member...so what! For as many scouts and geeks you can put on a roster for important achievements, there are just as many non-scouts and athletes that have accomplished just as much. I probably end up doing the same thing fleetfooted does and put on my uniform whenever the occasion presents itself and do my scouting thing...regardless. The uniform does not make the man, the man makes the uniform...

I agree with the overall tone of the responses...stop the segregation. My Webe II's consist of one home-school/special needs, 4 public school and 4 parochial school boys. IMHO regardless if the boys are home schooled, public school or parochial, if you segregate them (not due to Den size), you will ultimately end up with achievement rate difference that will be perceived as unfair or unjust regardless of who is in the group. If the Den sizes are a contributing factor, then maybe the Den's should mix it up - the boys can get used to this idea since they will need to make the same decision about which path to follow when they sign up for Boy Scouts.

well said packsaddle... watching the old ufc matches was extremely brutal but a strong testament to "grappling" arts or as we say in the BSA - "soft" arts - yeouch! BTW..i enjoyed the uncleguinea's beltloop on the black belt remark...you "out did" the Mr Myogi (sp?)response from the Karate Kid's question "What kind of belt do you have?" -

The quality of the activity needs to be investigated more than the "stereotype" of the activity but this still does not give subject proof. In this forum, there are separate views on one form v another so what other standard would you have BSA investigate in order to permit other forms of martial arts? Qualitative or Quantitative?

Rather than argue who has the softer or more aggressive form of martial arts, IMHO fleetfootedfox has the most relevant argument and BSA needs to reconsider their stance (no martial arts pun intended). Although I shy away from the softer arts (I prefer full contact-you learn more quickly), I have studied Judo and Aikido and can tell you that they are just as painful as a good pop in the head at a TKD tournament. However, after just having watched my WebeII's last soccer match, I may have to also think that youth soccer may be characterized as a "hard" art...and I see rugby was mentioned as well-anyone here been part of a scrum... I think that we need to have BSA reconsider martial arts classifications for all of the reasons fleetfooted cited.

Also sounds like a family camping deal that went seriously wrong. Shame on the Pack (agreed that it sounds like Cubs)that offers movies at a campground. As for the pop ups, fifth wheels or diesel pushers, unless you are a scout, get used to this method of camping. It gets carried away, but it's nice to have family involvement with the scouts. I really enjoyed reading the rv'ers responses which were less than sympathetic. As a self-serving note, we encountered the same rowdy kid problems (sans movies and chair stealing) and this year we have found a camp site that is in the shape of a bowl with one central fire pit for our family camping. (Having individual sites with their own fires became such a headache-too decentralized.) To make matters better, the camp owners let scouts and their families work at the camp prior to their stay, to reduce the fees. However, I will keep everyone posted after our Spring experience to see how things turn out. Hope the rv poster is at our campground at the same time so they can see how some Pack's are able to "behave".

Let's set aside the reasons that the scouts should wear the uniforms and look at any other extracurricular activity that these boys are engaged in... Soccer-regulated games do NOT start unless the players have on the correct protective guards and shoes. Hockey-good luck trying to get on the ice without having the right equipment and talking about expensive...don't get me started... Football-same as hockey Lacrosse, Baseball, Basketball (shoes are outrageous), Golf - Same Even non athletic clubs still require a certain degree of equipment investments - ever price out a musical instrument or marching uniform or how about hunting equipment including proper clothing and a bow or firearm or even a chess club member (price out a chess set lately or your sons/daughter own chess pieces with carrying bag for tournaments including travel expenses)... The BSA is no different and any parent that coughs at the price tags, I use the above arguments... Like it or not the scout and parents need to commit to the organization and not the fallacy to "come as you are" - sporting practices and other venues that the group agrees not to come in full uniform or practice apparel are far and few in between. If managed properly and informed correctly, these scouts (and leaders) should have no excuse for not showing up in full uniform. (DNFN - done ranting for now)

Although you can't just "let go" of decades of oppression or repression...IMHO your efforts to educate is the best representation of what we can do to correct an inaccurate portrayal of ceremonies and heritage. I think becoming PC has way too many drawbacks and Akaluga's namesake and methods to help us better understand this is the best way to approach how we portray Native Americans. Good luck. interesting forum name so I had to look it up and found this short description -http://cadvisor.com/akaluga/description.htm

Imitation is the highest form of flattery-or something to that affect. Great subject, but doubtful if there will be any conclusions. Take a look back at Ellis Island and the early immigration done in the US and you will undoubtedly find discrimination and hurtful phrases that people continue to use without understanding the roots and what these cultures and races endured on US soil. Unfortunately, the Native American population was subject to the same treatment, but at an earlier time. I'm not sure why we feel the need to be PC when just about every ethnicity, religion and culture has been subject to scrutiny, stereotypes and defammatory comments. As the author of the quote from the "stereo typed board" indicated, he is half Cree - you can't tell me his mother and fathers relationship was condoned within his tribe and if it was - why doesnt he mention what the other half was. We are an ethnically diluted nation of people with their own beliefs and mantras...we need to shed ourselves of these stigmas and continue to find ways to work at a harmonious relationship. BSA consulting with a Native American delegation IS the right thing to do...but banning the use of names because it is considered "disrespectful" without finding the reason for the name in the first place is just ignorant. Here in Michigan, we have quite a few towns and cities with Native American names and derivatives...do we start changing those names next...or how about GM changing their car line name - Pontiac > How about the Hoosiers? or the Dakotas? Stop...just stop!

I believe it was LyndaJ in another thread that spurred me to action. I am trying to locate any transplanted families within our area through the Red Cross and asking my District and Council to help in the process. If we can identify any of the kids, we can adopt those individuals into our Pack, Troop, District, Council to help them continue their efforts in Scouting(I pledged a uniform and book for any Cub Scout). But I asked to expand the search to find out Girl Scouts and Campfire folk as well. If there are any kids out there that need a stable group to part of, I want to make sure we can do what we can and should do locally - think globally act locally.

I have had 11 boys for the last 4 years (some have dropped off while others have dropped in)the program for 11 boys definitely can work, but I attribute this to "responsible" leadership (as I am sure others who posted to this thread will attest) The most important part about this thread is the DL - does he WANT a large group??? If not, don't try and force it or he will burn out and you will be left with NO DL. Sure it CAN work, but make sure the DL is up for it (not just going to try). Sounds like the CM is a "can do" person but they can not be a "do it all" person. If he can't, let the new scout parents know that they will need to find another DL otherwise, they will not be able to continue. No threats..just practical reasoning... Otherwise, if the DL is ready to make a go of the large group, the info from the other replies has worked for me. (including a Den Chief and a fantastic Asst DL and cooperative parent group) YIS Brian

I am waiting for someone to point the finger at the French for selling us Louisiana to begin with...(yes that was an attempt at levity) no insensitivity here...there were some unfortunate circumstances edified by posters within this thread that clearly show some of the residents were not unwilling but not aware of just how much danger they were in and to compound it, the lack of opportunity to move out of the path. But back to Kahuna's original post...can't help but agree with everything except the corruption and scandal (don't know enough about it to say) I know we heard about the police force scattering before, during and after the storm...but I wonder just how well these officers were able to handle the evacuation of their families if they were mandated to serve the city...tough call...but also noted was the apparent fortitude of the fire fighters...none have left or quit...what was the difference...or did we hear the whole story? IMHO FEMA should never have been brought under the DHS umbrella. My prayers go out to those who had to bear this disaster and to those children that had to endure this for many of us will never know the hardships that were presented in a time and day that thought only third world nations succumbed to nature.(off my soap box now...whew)

You guys scare me when you think alike and post the same darned thing within minutes of each other...lol I was wondering about ideas myself for parade floats when I read kittles idea...that sounds GREAT!!! I was thinking about School Night for Scouting and the race car theme...but I would think more people would associate cubs and bsa with camping. Any other ideas I can mooch off of....

Pretty good rant scoutldr and I'm with you except both genders and all age brackets are fair game... And believe it or not, those silly 4 bangers that are tuned up and running 6" diesel exhaust pipes, still get better mileage than my good ole American Suburban - Now here is my problem, oh sure gas is going up, but if you had a deal on a Ford Excursion that will never come along again in a life time, would you trade the 14-18mpg Chevy for a 10-14mpg Ford??? By the way, I WANT (not need) the room for my kids and the many miles that we drive...and there is no sense in talking about minivans or station wagons...

My Webelos II is getting excited about the 2010 Jamboree despite the press... Like Fscouter said, he you can provide the water, but you can't make the scouts drink.. With Jambo so near to a military installation, I would have surmised that someone knows how to supply water in vast quantities...but then again, some scouts/adult volunteers have never known this type of climate or heat and need to be educated accordingly... I can't help think that many of the boys who attended will have sought after patches and stories for the rest of their lives and be a GREAT source of inspiration and guidance for other scouts who did not attend... Many lessons learned...many more to be learned...

Stop me if you have heard this one... Just got back from camp (Webelos Adventureland) and could not believe how many adults had cell phones and were allowing the boys to check in with their parents at home on a DAILY basis... Put me on the list of banning cell phones from all non-leader personnel at camps...and especially at ALL cub scout and Webelos camps... Leaders need them for emergencies (if you have cell coverage) But with technology today, you don't need to talk on a cell phone...games aren't the only option with text messaging (which could be done all night without waking any of the other scouts) and now sending pictures. Obviously, we are all sensitive to YP training and cell phones that have camera capabilities are a reality and before an abuse or "mistaken" picture is transmitted intentionally or by accident...well I would hate to see what happens.. If you are going to have them at camp, then devise a way to check the cellphones in with the head of the camp and allow use during certain periods in one area of the camp or tent and have certain hours that the phones may be used and limit the amount of time. Just a thought, but you will not find my son with a cellphone next year camping with his new troop, but he will always have money and the ability to use the payphone if the need arises. BTW..Camp Gerber, Twin Lakes, MI both the Webelos and Boy Scout camps are fantastic and well run (despite the not-quite-as-hot-but-close-to-JAMBO heat).

While on the topic of shoulder loops, do the Webelos that choose to wear the tan shirt, need to don the blue shoulder loops to signify Cub Scouting?

Madkins- the "ladder" reference was from cubbingcarol or the post prior to your 3 volume posting at the beginning of this thread in which I agreed with your post... and it was my reference to your ladder, not BW's... Scoutndad

Without making this sound like us v. them...I am with SR540 on this... Juris lent no evidence or credibility in his postings. His questions and statements were very skewed and one was unable to ascertain if he was truly involved with the BSA or just enjoyed evoking responses from members. While I agree with free speech, one must always look at the source and determine the intent of the orator...in this case, and without making this personal, I agree with Terry on the suspension of Juris. Incidentally, Juris sent a personal email message (through scouter.com) to me that he was being booted...did anyone else receive this?

Nicely said Madkins and I would gladly hold the step ladder for you...lol

IMHO... Greatest priority for any 10-11 year old boy is to have fun. Greatest priority for any leader is to offer exposure to those events that allow the family and boy to make the best informed decision.

Great idea with the den chief - it could really make a huge impact depending on the boy... I know I am stating the obvious - but the den chief must be a GOOD den chief and not just going through the motions - I have had two bad experiences so far but I am looking at getting another den chief for this year - I won't give up... We have 4 troops from our immediate area and unfortunately none of them are "brother" troops which I think would make a huge difference for the boys...but I'm working on it...