Scoutndad

Good luck KLC...glad to hear your son still has faith in scouting. It sounds as if one of your leaders is trying to do the right thing. Scoutndad

Lisabob stole my thunder about this occurring at an OA ordeal...nevertheless, Devil's advocate or not, if the boy was able to point a "gun" at another boy (scout or not), no quarter asked or granted. Expel the boy immediately and as an earlier message suggested, contact the local authorities (including the necessary scout execs) especially if this appears to be a family trait...any ideas if the "victim" actually stood up for himself and had the "bully" go looking for his "piece" to even the score...no way...BTW, I'm guessing that using an airsoft gun to commit a felony is still a felony even if it is not a "real" gun...and Scouts to boot...man SR540...I hate to admit it, but I laughed when you said you shot yourself...I would have done the same thing...not too bright, but you get immediate results...

Nice CA... Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all "accident" due to a lack of focus... run into a stationary tree instead....yikes, I've pulled apart too many wrecks to recommend that course of action even if I was paying attention... But back to the thread...as some have suggested, there are right ways and wrong ways to go hunting...My personal take was that Dick was going for a public service announcement by pointing out an example to hunters out there that if you go out without the correct bird stamp, you are hunting illegally and may even end up shooting somebody that you are hunting with... BTW, anybody know if he actually KILLED the quail...just curious... As for solidifying impressions of our countries VP....what exactly did you know about our last 3 or 4 VP's compared to this one, that makes his impression more lasting as cold hearted???? Don't bore me with political party propaganda.... Just imagine how you would counsel one of your scouts or friends if this accident happened to occur while they were out hunting....run to the media and exploit the accident???? Hardly, without fully knowing what it feels like to accidentally shoot someone, I am guessing that Dick is probably doing a little soul searching and trying to find his way back in to the mainstream...but because he holds a public office, he does not have ability to afford time...so people label according to their media informed impressions....oh well....still want to know about that quail....

Tongue in cheek or night, I echo UZ's comments. Can you just imagine his black suit guys hitting the dirt when he was bringing his gun to bear on target? I feel badly for his friend, but I seem to recall an article from yesterday that described another incident where one friend shot another friend in the elbow because he thought the friend's elbow peeking out from behind a tree was a squirrel... Now more than ever, we need hunter safety courses to ensure safe hunting... I couldn't stay awake last night, how well did Leno, Leterman and all other late night shows do lampooning Dick?

Good thread JD... Our Pack is finally progressing...we finally moved the B&G to Feb instead of May and moved all other Pack/Scout awards to our monthly Pack meetings. I agree with most others here and we award based on when the boy achieves his award...although this year we have done some pretty awesome ceremonies and the boys intentionally hold off so they can do it together and get the ceremony together. However, our AOL and Crossover will still be held at the Blue and Gold. We use it as a once a year potluck dinner where all of the FAMILIES of scouts get together and enjoy themselves. All in all, isn't it toe-may-toe / toe-mah-toe - whether you hold the B&G as a birthday celebration and have a separate awards ceremony or hold the B&G as an award ceremony and have a separate birthday party???. Both are intended to be a celebration of scouting in their own way. I'm not sure about all of your Pack parents, but our parents tend not to bleed blue and gold and are quickly distracted with scout siblings. The AOL and Crossover tends to be a way for the parents and siblings to focus and see what the "pay off" is all about...IMHO Scoutndad

Well....I respectfully hate each one of you that helped gshafer find the On My Honor song... I have been trying to find a proper way to send my Webelos II to Boy Scouts during their crossover ceremony (all 7 will have their AOL)and I cried like a big sissy when I heard that song and now know what I am going to play... I'll miss those guys... Scuse the tears on the screen... Scoutndad

SR540, Sorry that you misunderstood my last post due to syntax. I was not pointing out that you took his quote out of context, I was trying to point out that there was nothing to misunderstand...it was a black and white statement. And although there is an inherent contradiction("original post did not allude to religion" vs. "ID IS religion") in your last post, I agree with ID v pig analogy and the general tone of your explanation. I have no problem with the ruling on the latest ID trial...as I said before, the judge had no choice to rule the way he did and would expect nothing less with false testimony in any case.

SR540, I can appreciate your line of reasoning on distinguishing the two lines of thought...however, you can not read the quote out of context. The statement was clearly made...if no experimental or observational methods are used, your result is based upon ignorance...in this case religion/faith. This is not a disagreement...if they choose not to teach ID in public school science classes, that's fine...but do not equate faith to ignorance. What I find most alarming is that this same battle with most of the same posting participants has been occurring and reoccurring over 3+ years under this forum...disturbing to say the least.

Even worse than trying to one up each other is stating that religious beliefs are based on ignorance... Poor excuse and stance for anyone involved with or leading a youth group Kahuna, I did watch the movie with my scout (those parts that were age appropriate) and he was clueless - but he did watch the Kingdom of Heaven regarding the religious crusades in the Middle East and was fascinated - I guess it depends on how it is presented...go figure...

On the surface I will agree with your statements and yes, Creationists (sp) will use the "were you there" argument to try and validate their stance since it validates their (my) belief regardless of "evidence". However, it only brings us back to the idea that while the theory of Evolution may have all of the "empirical evidence" to support it, this all started from somewhere by someone...in my case, God started it and whether he allowed us to formulate our theories on evolution as part of that process, I will continue to accept both regardless of how a loose bunch of ID people started a fight that they had no hope of winning. Bottomline, it still does not make the other side "good guys" and it was a poor term used in this forum. Especially in a BSA forum where faith and religious beliefs are promoted - regardless of beliefs of others who post within this forum. I am as candid as possible with my scouts but I fail to see how this ID case can be used in a practical setting with scouts until someone decides that the BSA organization is wrong and changes the rules (like GSA). What benefit is derived from demoralizing the underlying religious values of the boys within BSA? (I presume we post to this website since we share a common intetest in the BSA) I may not have appreciated how the previous pages and postings that are used to subjugate the beliefs of others, but I would personally toss any adult leader out with the trash if they tried to used these bully tactics to help my son understand the world around them!

Fantastic post packsaddle and I look forward to sitting down with your suggested reading. I especially enjoyed the unfortunate truth at the end that both sides will continue to mar their credibility but as long as we do not use a bigoted slant on an issue larger than we are (ID case)I still believe that our kids can continue to be challenged with the idea that both ideas can coexist and that a well researched and well informed decision is the best education. Let them rule to keep ID out of school science classes and give them the ability to use this ruling to support their future cases (Moore did a tremendous job in covering all of his bases). I will continue to pay to have my children start the day with a prayer, learn about God along with all of their other critical and necessary academic subjects, and pledge allegiance to their flag.

Disturbing to read FirstPusks last 3 sentences...coherent logic up to that point. The Judge did what he had to do...no case...rule against...open and shut. ID dead...doubtful...but maybe by that name. PC has been the death of many of those that believe they can fight their spiritual beliefs under neutral name tags, but it simply does not work. As was mentioned previously, those that believe God as the Divine Creator should not call it ID. Only one thing still disturbs me about the scientific discussions: Before any serious scientist can speak of Evolution of life, they must prove the start from nothingness... Don't talk about certainty of confidence...the scientific crowd has none and will never have it until they develop a time machine (neither will the ID crowd) so is it so abstract to recognize both? By the way, the scientific community sure took a hit with stem cell research scandal. It seems that even scientific data can stumble sometimes...

Firstpusk, the question was not directed to you individually, but a great response nonetheless. And no pun intended, but I was not fishing, Fishsqueezer. I believed my question to be neutral and not intended to dichomotize this discussion. (Otherwise we would be back in to the "he said - she said" debate) From some of the postings (not just this forum), would you not agree that there may be serious religious differences that exist between leaders and scouts (especially given the title-anyone want to explain that to a scout that is reading this thread)? My question is related to the extent that the BSA promotes a faith based program and the adverserial beliefs of some of the people involved with the program. To further the neutrality, how would a leader portray their preference of tying a square knot when a bowline would be more appropriate? Both may work fundamentally, but if the court struck down the usage of the bowline knot being taught to everyone, how would the leader then approach the subject that knots are knots no matter what you do or what a court rules or opines. And that no knots are "superior" to others but an understanding of other knots are paramont to understanding "Why" the scout feels his knot is the best one for him. whew....no more knot analogies.

Ahhhh, back to the meat of the issue... I referenced poor testimony (you provided the gory details of the sordid lies and inaccuracies) I referenced that the judge was only able to draw one logical conclusion based on how the case was presented (and you once again provided the obsequious nature of the ruling). My comment was not directed towards an improper ruling, but towards the very poor work done by the ID crowd...kinda like the OJ prosecution team...doh! And by the way, I will not be as easily drawn into the anti-creationism and anti-Moore rhetoric that others expound upon within this forum for the sake of my last comment from my previous thread. Faith (specifically my faith) will not be decided in the courtroom. I guess my ultimate question would be how do Scoutmasters/adult leaders in BSA that do not believe in God/a Divine entity, provide a well rounded perspective for leadership to the boys within their Troops? I realize ID may have taken a blow with this case, but how would you explain it to the boys you lead without ignoring the respect for the scouts underlying religious values - regardless of your stance on ID?

Ed, you are absolutely right that we don't have to read the forum or your postings...however, as much as I admire your stance (and agree with most of what you state), the distraction is still there with the constant bickering. While I may be addressing you directly on this, I am not singling you out. I'm at a loss as to what is won or lost by the "back and forth" mentality. But honestly, CAScouter does have a point.... Any reason why we can't have a separate forum TOPIC entitled RELIGION....then you could "duke" it out all day with those who oppose what BSA tries to promote. And finally, my $.02 worth on this thread... One poorly run proceeding that causes a judge to rule unfavorably, does not mean that the issue is dead. This was a bad case from the start with very poor testimony. This is not dead by a long shot - anyone hear of Roe v Wade (rhetorical)? Politcal careers are won and lost based on this case as I imagine other careers will be determined on their religious value stance. Faith certainly is not decided in the courtroom...

Hey Meech.... How about your first project is a Boy Scout video game? Don't tell me you couldn't find a way to use ropes, knots, camping gear for a fantasy game huh? (Dodging lightning strikes on open ground, safely rapelling(sp) off of cliffs with correct gear, not to mention being able to travel world wide to other international scout troops and deal with different climates, conditions, topography)Need to tie certain knots for certain situations, need to cook meals in order for your "scout" to stay alive, find water, GPS navigation, etc... I could see a real need for an E rated game for younger scouts if Gaming night becomes a predominant scout activity and could obviously incorporate scouting functions. I also agree with GWD's scout...my son goes into video mentality when playing more "extreme" (HALO type) games and is more easily frustrated, more prone to outbursts, and becomes overall more agitated. I would not agree to an all-nighter with HALO or any realistic combat games (which may weed out a few scouts) but think the idea is pretty cool. Although I COMPLETELY BAN all video games at my Cub functions, my son and I enjoy battling each other on his PS2 when we get home...helps me understand the games he plays and make better game purchases in the future, but it is also a forum that my son and I enjoy where he can beat me at something and I won't yell, scream, kick and cry....much... It also makes him feel more comfortable since we are equal, and allows him to ask more questions about the world that is unfolding around his 11 year old mind.

Sorry to chime in late when it sounds that you have made up your mind... The only item about your post that I noticed is the attempt to justify your job change. I could care less about the bar environment, but why are you trying so hard to justify this? It is obvious that this is weighing heavily on your mind and I can appreciate your cautious approach, but as a Junior in college and in the working world, why are you consulting a priest, your mom and a scouting forum over a bartending job??? Wait until you graduate and get the "real" job to consult with your team...I'm sure we will be here waiting... BTW, not sure of your college major or life aspirations, but have you had any consideration on how this will appear on your resume (kinda like the business grad who lists Hooters on her resume-doesn't take away from her intellect but does speak for her life choices-good or bad)? Not being critical...it sounds as if you have your head on straight...best of luck in whatever you do.

Although I prefer Merry Christmas, IMHO it is completely acceptable to address your party as a Holiday party if you are unaware of the attendees religious values. No reason you can not decorate for all holidays (Kwanzaa, Hanukah, etc.) as part of the party theme. Offended parents are too sensitized to this issue and need to be more open to the understanding of other practices. Decorate each wall with a different holiday theme and colors with a scout researched paragrpah explaining the holiday. And I agree with some of the other replies...you have spent TOO much time dwelling on the reply of one adult and this is your party...have fun! If he is that offended, he gets the party next year.. Merry Christmas!

Can't speak for the aluminum track but I am part of a small team for our Pack that is looking at purchasing an integrated track timer and the Micro Wizard was highly recommended. It is able to interface with our existing Derby Assistant software and will let us race more heats (always great for the boys)in the same amount of time without manually tabulating or trying to figure the heat winners. Our District PWD guy uses the Fast Track and his lap top and I have witnessed this software in action and it seems to work very nicely. Good luck!

IMHO...you only have a few months left...there is little left for you to do. The meeting with the parents should have been a long time ago (similar to progress reports in school) but speaking with them now to let them know where he is in Cub Scouts and where he needs to be in Boy Scouts will not be an easy discussion and I would bet that the parents will not be surprised about what you have to say. The other ideas are great ideas, but now there is simply no incentive left for the WEBEII to do anything and he knows it. I have a feeling that even if you give him the responsibility to lead an activity or the group, he will not step up (just a hunch)but you might try it. I wish there was an easy answer, but with a few months left, there is not much you can do. Leaders are not trained counselors nor babysitters and this boy is obviously a distracted youth with authority issues. What I would do is require one or both parents to stay in the room for the remaining den meetings that you have. If they can not commit, then little Johnnie should not be allowed to attend the meetings. If he does not want to earn the Webelos badge OR contribute, not sure why he is there in the first place. Make it enjoyable for your remaining scouts who have thrived, contributed and reaped from the program and let little Johnnie get professional help that he desparately needs. You have had a tough issue to contend with and my prayers are with you on this.

While we are on the topic of respect... How about "please", "thank you" and "you're welcome" or even the elusive "excuse me" ? For most of the time, the scouts now know that in order to gain my attention, they need to use the above words along with Mr. And the response to "thank you" is not "uh huh" or "it's OK" or "sure"...it is "you're welcome"... And when they want attention, how many of your scouts use the words "excuse me" to gain your attention? Anybody running into the lost(or found) art of P's and Q's?

I have never insisted, but for the last 5 years they use Mr.... However, I ALWAYS insist that they refer to parents or guests by Mr, Mrs or Ms...if it is a tough last name then I confirm w/ the adult if ok to refer to the adult by the last initial, and then ask my scouts to refer to the person as such. Good question and would be curious to hear if anyone uses first names....

packsaddle, you made my day with the obscure Trekkie reference and would still answer the Foxworthy question the same way regardless if it was a policy in my household or not... I agree with you on the other thread and read it with great interest... To all, Have a Great (and safe) Thanksgiving!

dan, The BSA is a private club that has the constitutional right (your citing) to exclude those members that do not meet its standards. They do indeed have the right to exclude those that do not believe in God and although there are case citings for the exclusion of agnostics, these agnositcs were atheistic agnostics (refusing to pray or acknowledging God) or just plain athiestic. There is no case law that shows where a theistic agnostic has been excluding from the BSA for not doing their duty to God. Why? For the simple fact that by definition alone, they believe in God but they can not comprehend the magnitude of that belief and because of this, they can still do their duty to God and be reverent. I am a bit sensitive to the nature of this posting and have done quite a bit of investigation, but my point and the question at hand is the ignorace of upholding policy and lying...no need to dwell on semantics when it is a broad scope question. Do you believe lying and/or ignoring a known policy is right? I guess I would agree with Trevorum...lying is always wrong. Does that mean that I don't do it...nope, unfortunately I try to refrain from lying at all but it is inevitable in some cases.

dan, before you respond again, please review agnosticism. BSA does not prohibit ALL agnostics, only those that do not believe in a diety. There is no flat prohibition no matter how many times you post that the BSA does not allow agnostics. Interesting forum...just wish there was a point. Being hypocritical is part of the grand scheme...ignoring laws and rules sometimes occurs but then the intent needs to be investigated not the number of occurences. Not a right or wrong thing, more of a moral and ethical dilemma... Please continue the sparring....