scoutmomma

Thanks to both Eamonn and Packsaddle. It's been a rough few weeks. Also, I broke my tailbone so I can't go snowboarding on the troop's annual ski trip this weekend, so I'm particularly cranky.

Hans Zieger does not live in southeastern Pennsylvania or anywhere near Philadelphia, and is not part of Cradle of Liberty Council. He can very comfortably take potshots at Philadelphia from out west in Washington state. He can stay out there, and can take his nose out of Philadelphia and CoL's business, as far as I'm concerned. Cradle of Liberty is my council, and as far as I'm concerned and as far as I can see, has done nothing but posture since BSA forced them to toe the line back in 2003 when CoL TRIED to invoke "local option" and adopt a non-discriminatory policy back then, till BSA threw them under the bus and threatened to revoke their charter unless they backed down. CoL backed down. National did not, as far as I'm aware, offer CoL any help to overcome the local funding lost from United Way of Southeastern Pennsylvania and others at the time, not to mention the nosedive that Friends of Scouting fundraising in COL has taken since then. [They also have taken a financial hit over the past three years at council summer camps, due to losing two entire summer seasons of camping at Treasure Island, due to severe flooding two years in a row, so that came at a particularly inopportune time. My troop has gone camping out of council for the past three years because of this, the first two years because of the flooding, last year due to popular demand of our Scouts. (We are going to an in-council summer camp this year.)] As for the comment about CoL finding another home: CoL ALREADY has another home -- in addition to its Philadelphia offices, it has a service center out in Valley Forge -- CoL was formed by the merger of Philadelphia and Valley Forge councils, so has had two offices ever since. The majority of CoL's operations has been based at the Firestone service center in Valley Forge, which is larger and also easier to maintain than the Marks center in Philadelphia. For all National's messing with CoL back in 2003, CoL has not needed much help shooting itself in the foot all by itself since then, in my opinion, and has not done a good job of communicating with local Scout leaders about the situation. We've been pretty much in the dark about what the heck's been going on -- Council's website links to "more information" has basically been links to editorials supporting the party line, and completely ignoring the fact that Philadelphia had plenty of legal reason to do what it did. I don't like the fact that CoL has basically fanned the flames of outrage against Philadelphia City Council instead of negotiating in good faith to reach a compromise. CoL was put on notice about the possibility of eviction in 2006, and as far as I can tell, pretty much ignored the city, no doubt hoping "it would all go away." The city doesn't really want to throw CoL out of the Marks center. But all we've heard from CoL for the past year is a lot of posturing and snappy sound bites about how the city is trying to evict a bunch of poor Scouts. CoL just had a "Scouter Summit" a couple of weeks ago and for the first time since 2003 FINALLY talked directly to local Scout leaders about what was going on. I had to miss the meeting due to a family emergency, so I can't tell you exactly what was said. But all I've seen is a lot of finger-pointing and blaming of the City of Philadelphia. I'm not happy with my council, but there seems very little that I can do about it. So I stay active with my troop and support THE TROOP for my son's sake. But I wish Zieger would just shut up already about Philadelphia and Cradle of Liberty Council. I DON'T CARE if he is an Eagle Scout and an Assistant Scoutmaster OUT IN WASHINGTON. He is NOT HELPING the situation by writing his inflammatory editorials about Philadelphia, and claiming that this situation will make crime in Philadelphia worse. I wish he would just go away.

There was a time, I think, when being a reporter was considered an honorable profession. Honor means, in part, self-restraint. Honor also means truthfulness and honesty, even if it means you sell less papers or your own personal point of view doesn't carry the day. Beavah, you are stereotyping too: local newspaper reporters are not the same as national news anchors and smalltown newspaper publishers are not the same as international media conglomerate corporations. What goes on in "the media" in terms of ratings and selling papers has nothing to do with the actions of individual reporters and everything to do with changes in the industry where stockholders must be appeased and shrinking markets with media monopolies holding sway. Those changes were effected by newspaper and broadcast media owners, with the help of the government that loosened the regulations on media acquisitions and mergers. To blame those changes on reporters is, again, an easy dodge. We have the media we allowed to develop. It's specious to blame the street reporters for what has happened at management's upper levels.

Perhaps not, but just as cops treat us all as potential criminals because it is safer, it is safer to assume that all reporters are biased and likely dishonest. You know what, I don't accept that all cops treat everyone as a potential criminal either.

Thank you, OGE, you articulate the case very well indeed

You created your own slant by editing out my followup sentence: Broadly stereotyping reporters is an easy dodge, the same as labeling all lawyers as rapacious ambulance-chasers, and I don't accept either stereotype. The examples you cite do not mean that all news is distorted nor that all reporters are dishonest.

Once one accepts that most "news" has been distorted, it's hard to get too bothered by whatever has been implicated. Well, other than FoxNews , I don't accept that most news is distorted. Broadly stereotyping reporters is an easy dodge, the same as labeling all lawyers as rapacious ambulance-chasers, and I don't accept either stereotype.

And in the article the Scoutmaster (I think) claims it was part of the original project Granted, which is why I said "It's still just 'he said, they said' as long as we don't know whether that rock was included in the original proposal or not."

The government didn't pay for the "God Rock" in the planetary walk. The government didn't even pay to host an exhibition. It simply allowed that expression. Well...to go back to the story that sparked the original thread whence this one came, the government denies having allowed that expression in the first place: ...city officials said the proposal they were given does not mention the "God stone." And that's still where we stand, when it comes to what we know. It's still just "he said, they said" as long as we don't know whether that rock was included in the original proposal or not. Am I the only one bothered by the implication that either the Scout or the government officials aren't telling the truth?

If, as some claim, a cross, Star of David, or even a Budhist Wheel somehow harms them or their children because they "may" respresent teachings they choose not to listen to, then they are not doing a very good job at supporting what they do believe, or want their children to understand. The power of a symbol is extremely compelling to those for whom it has meaning, whether positive or negative. The cross, the Star of David, and the Muslim crescent moon and star are just such symbols. Skeptic, I must be missing something -- I don't understand how you can seriously claim that those who feel harmed by the display of such symbols simply aren't doing a good job of supporting their own beliefs. Not when I read yet another story about the growing religious divisions not only in our country but around the world... Why not ignore it on a personal level, and use it as a teaching example for their children's understanding of their principles, beliefs, or spiritual challenges? Somehow I don't see this prevailing as an argument in one of those periodic controversies that erupt over the display of, say, the Confederate flag... How is the power of a religious symbol as potent as the cross, Star of David, or crescent moon and star any different? I'm just sayin'...

Our troop uses 2-man REI Halfdomes, lightweight and easily divided between two boys for backpacking, with interchangeable parts that can be replaced. In three years, we have had to replace parts, but not tents. We did add several new ones this year to accommodate growing troop interest in backpacking, though -- we used to have about 12-15 Scouts per trip, now it's more like 20-25.

Sorry, religious rights are too important to allow 98% dictate to the 2% what they ought to believe, even if you think the 2% are being uppity. Hear, hear.(This message has been edited by scoutmomma)

The pack my son came from is about that size as well, also pulling from 3 schools. The question that comes to my mind is how many dens do you have, and how big are the dens? Our local pack has, I believe, 6 or 7 dens.

We use troop tents, approximately 20 REI Halfdome tents purchased with money from troop fundraising events. It's not so that we look "uniform" -- in the three years my son has been in the troop, we have not yet attended a camporee -- but at our Scoutmaster's request, because they are lightweight and easily divided among two boys for backpacking. It also spares expense to parents of our crossovers each spring, who are already suffering from sticker shock for the cost of a decent sleeping bag, hiking boots and backpack. Plus there is the added benefit of interchangeable parts -- at least until REI changed the design of their Halfdome tent this past year. The adults generally use the troop tents as well. Scouts sometimes bring their own personal tents, but not often. As for drying out the tents, we are fortunate to have our own facility, so we have space to set up the tents after a trip. It's actually a pretty ingrained ritual that Scouts set up tents after returning from a trip on Sunday, then arrive early the next evening before our Monday night meeting to take down and put away the now-dry tents.

Never mind, I'm stepping out of this discussion.(This message has been edited by scoutmomma)

I always tell 'em that a COH is an act of service. They don't need it, but the community needs it. It's a way of providin' an example for younger scouts, and a way to thank the SM, ASMs, parents and parent volunteers for all their efforts over da years. Yeh say "thank you" to those people by giving them a chance to celebrate. I like this sentiment, and I can attest to the inspiration that seeing an Eagle Court of Honor can provide: about a month after my son crossed over, he was invited to an ECOH for a Scout he did not know. We went, and he was asked to be in the color guard. At age 10, he was suitably impressed. On the ride home, he said to me, "I want to be an Eagle." It's now 3-1/2 years later, and he is near to completing his Life rank, and recently told me that he was starting to think about what he might do for his Eagle project. He's been to Den Chief training and NYLT, he'll be eligible in the troop's next O/A election, and he's talking about applying to be a CIT next summer. Would he have done all this without that Eagle Court of Honor? Maybe. I don't think so, though. It wasn't even a particularly elaborate ceremony, but it was heartwarming, and my son felt it. Maybe your Eagle might not want to have all the hoopla, but it doesn't have to be over-the-top, and it doesn't really matter if your Eagle doesn't know the newer Scouts. It might not be a big deal for him, but I'm certain it will make a major impression on the young guys. For that reason alone, it's worth doing something. SSScout's description sounds like a nice compromise, marking the occasion with real sentiment without being overly ceremonial: Invited the Troop to a camp out on his grandparents farm. Invited Troop family to the campfire saturday night.(bring your own chair). SM and CC and all did the award thing in front of the fire under the Pine trees. Nice fall night. Very Scouty. Brownies not necessary. Hot cocoa and cider and hot dogs on sticks and all the fixins. Sing the Scout Vespers. Go to bed happy.

What is "SMC"? Scout Master Conference? (as opposed to Scoutmaster Conference)

Are you presuming that all UUs are atheists?

I'm interested in knowing this as well. Our troop is considering acquiring a trailer. Most of our trips now have 25-30 Scouts and 6-8 adults participating, and with each Scout year usually including at least one bike trip, one multi-sport trip (biking, hiking & canoeing), an annual family ski trip, as well as a week of summer camp, we find we need to rent a trailer several times a year, and collecting one the night before an early-morning departure or having to return one on a Sunday afternoon after a weekend trip can be a bit of a hassle. Our Scoutmaster has asked if the Troop Committee will consider funding the purchase of a troop trailer, and I suspect we very likely will be acquiring one by the end of the Scout year, but what to look for in terms of cost and features is a bit of an open question! Scoutmomma

I'd read about this a few weeks ago in a story that explained more about the process of retracing Sellers' Eagle paperwork in the Orangeburg (SC) Times and Democrat at http://www.thetandd.com/articles/2007/11/02/news/12806712.txt. This one has more emphasis on what Sellers got out of Scouting. Scoutmomma Sellers to receive Eagle Scout Award 45 years after earning it Better late than never, a Denmark man will receive his Eagle Scout Award 45 years after he earned it. Dr. Cleveland L. Sellers Jr., director of African American Studies at the University of South Carolina in Columbia, will receive the long overdue honor on Dec. 3 during a Court of Honor and luncheon at the Brookland Banquet and Conference Center in Columbia. Now married, with a doctorate degree and three grown children, Sellers' Court of Honor will not be your typical Eagle ceremony. Troop 137, chartered by Rome Baptist Church in Denmark, was then led by the late Timothy Smith as scoutmaster. Scouting consisted of trips to Camp Brownlee, the "blacks only" Boy Scout camp and a 1960 trip to the National Jamboree. After Sellers completed the requirements for Eagle, Assistant Scoutmaster Frank Staley turned in his documentation, but the Eagle award was lost in transit. In the meantime, Sellers was off to college - turbulent times during which he fought locally and nationally for racial equality. Sellers as the only man jailed in the aftermath of what came to be known as the "Orangeburg Massacre" in 1968 at South Carolina State University. Following the ordeal, Sellers and his family settled in Greensboro, N.C., never forgetting his Scouting ideals. He continued educating and advocating for civil rights there until his parents' poor health brought him back to South Carolina in 1990. Recently, Sellers decided it was time to catch up on the elusive Eagle paperwork. After all of these years, he says he feels the work that went into his Eagle was a strong inspiration for his success. After much digging and assistance from Sheila Dantzler, Council Scoutreach executive; Darrin Thomas, Council Board member and Dr. Frank Staley, who remains a Scout leader to this day and is a retired professor from South Carolina State University, the time has come for Sellers to receive his formal award. Upon learning of the Indian Waters Council's plan for a formal recognition ceremony, Sellers asked to use this opportunity to speak of the powerful, positive influence that Scouting has had on his life and, especially, on the need for Scouting for today's troubled youth. "Scouting helps channel young men, helping them develop principles, responsibility and goals," Sellers said. "Scouts are provided opportunities for community service that promote the development of a social conscience and build self-confidence. Thanks to the training and experiences, Scouting teaches self-reliance and instills the peace of mind to know that you can handle any situation." Sellers will speak to the community about the impact that Scouts can make on youth in the Midlands, imploring others to help provide this alternative to youth idleness and crime. Churches and other community organizations may become chartered organizations for Scouting units, offering space and coordinating adult volunteer leaders to run the programs. Those interested in helping expand the audience of Scouting can contact Larry Brown at the Indian Waters Council. For more information, visit the Council Web site at www.indianwaters.org or call 803-750-9868.

Scoutmomma, That conversation with your son will indeed be a classic. He sounds like he's developing great skills of critical thinking. We need more like him. He has that highly tuned BS meter that all 13-year-olds seem to have. You know, the one where they don't recognize when they're not making sense but can easily point out when anyone else is being illogical. :-) As my Thanksgiving coffee cup says, "Don't Let the Turkeys Get You Down". Thanks, Packsaddle. Scoutmomma

I was once a Girl Scout, but don't remember much in the way of learning outdoor or camping skills. Of course, this was many moons ago, when decorating bars of soap and making potholders and whistle lanyards passed for programming. :-p My son joined Cub Scouts when he was in second grade, the first organized extra-curricular activity he ever asked to be involved in. Over his Cub years, his interest waxed and waned, generally peaking at Pinewood Derby time -- he never went for speed, preferring creativity instead (he won design awards for his car four years in a row). He always said he was only going to go up through Webelos Patrol (as the pack here refers to Webelos II), and that was it -- until he saw the crossover ceremony at the Blue & Gold Banquet the spring of his Webelos I year. He was so impressed with the bridge the feeder troop built for the boys to cross over, and with the fuss made over the newly minted Boy Scouts that he announced on the spot that he was going to join the troop the following year because he wanted to cross that bridge too! I was not an active parent while he was a Cub, but once he became a Boy Scout, his dad made it clear that he was not interested in continuing to be the Scout support parent, so it fell to me to take on that role. My son saw his first Eagle Court of Honor that first spring after he crossed over, and was thrilled to be asked to be in the color guard -- so much so that on the drive home, he told me that he wanted to be an Eagle Scout. I'll admit I was skeptical that his interest would hold, particularly because this troop is heavily into camping, and his only camping experience as a Cub was a dismal failure, in which his dad brought him home early. But three years on, and I'm proud that my son is a Star Scout, well on his way to his Life rank. This fall he attended NYLT and is talking about applying to be a CIT at summer camp, and he's already talking about what he will need to do to make Eagle, and intends to go to Philmont in 2010. And the kid who used to hate the very idea of camping has amassed nearly 60 nights in the past two years! As for me: being the support parent while going through a divorce meant that taking him to the weekly troop meetings turned into one of my social outlets, and as I got to know the other parents better, I was asked to assist first with summer camp, and then with advancement. From there, I became summer camp coordinator, then advancement chair, and a year ago was asked to become the troop committee chair. If you'd asked me three years ago that I'd be this involved with the Scouts, or that my son would be so active (last night, he informed me that he'd never missed a weekly meeting since he joined, and he thought that was pretty cool), I never would have believed it. I have my issues with some of National's policies, but there is no denying that Boy Scouts has made a huge difference in my son's life, as well as mine. Scoutmomma

Unitarian Universalists are allowed to join so the "BSA is discriminating" line is a moot point. As my 13-year-old Star Scout son would say: Whatever. The conversation in which I explain to him why there are two UU emblems that he can earn, but BSA doesn't approve of the one sponsored by his church, and vice versa, is sure to be a classic. Scoutmomma

Not feeling welcome and not welcome are completely different A difference that makes no difference is no difference, to quote Mr. Spock. At any rate, what I was originally responding to was the question of what religions BSA discriminates against, and I contend that Unitarian Universalism is one. Saying that UUs are "welcome" except for their religious emblem (or "'religious' medal," as GW put it) doesn't tell me that they are not discriminated against by BSA. Scoutmomma

Unitarians are welcome in the BSA, it is just that their "religious" medal isn't recognized by BSA and so cannot be worn on the uniform. I don't think many Unitarian Universalists feel all that welcome when their church's religious emblem has been disallowed. The Unitarian Universalist Scouters' Association emblem, I understand, is accepted by BSA but not by UUA. Again, not a particularly welcoming feeling ensues. I'm not sure that Unitarianism is really a religion. All the Unitarians that I know tell me that Unitarian doctrine allows them to believe whatever they want including being an atheist. Unitarian Universalism is indeed a religion, but it does not have a "doctrine," and saying Unitarians can believe "whatever they want" is a vast oversimplification. From the UUA website: "If you're searching for a religious home that is guided by a quest for truth and meaning, not by a set creed or dogma, we invite you to discover Unitarian Universalism. We are a caring, openminded religious community that encourages you to seek your own spiritual path. Unitarian Universalist congregations are places where people gather to nurture their spirits and put their faith into action by helping to make our communitiesand the worlda better place. And from elsewhere on the UUA website: "There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote: * The inherent worth and dignity of every person; * Justice, equity and compassion in human relations; * Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations; * A free and responsible search for truth and meaning; * The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large; * The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; * Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." One of the funadmentals of a religion is that the adherents believe pretty much the same thing. However, Unitarians say that you can believe that life is a bowl of jell-o and I can believe that we live on the back on an ant. That's not a religion, that's a group of people with differing beliefs that just want to hang out together and get a tax break. Not a very polite statement, and more than a little insulting. Scoutmomma