scoutldr

My point was that the Scout Oath and Law are not a "cafeteria plan", picking and choosing what you like and ignoring the rest because they are inconvenient or more "socially acceptable". So why are we choosing to enforce duty to God, but not the other duties with equal vigor? In my opinion, Darell Lambert was no more a hypocrite than the rest of us...just on different subjects.

Yes, there is a correlation! More than a few have thrown in the towel after a run-in with the Council/District staff, both professional and volunteer. That's how I got the training job...the last guy showed up at the Council office and turned in his "training kit" and said, "I quit." And he quit everything, even his Unit position. Now I understand. Seems to me that the volunteer Scouter cadre should be catered to and made to feel valued and appreciated...not as additional "staff" to be dictated to and ordered around like low-level employees. I get enough of that at work, and I'm NOT going to tolerate it as a volunteer.

One of the posts in this thread referred to "YP Facilitator Training". Can anyone provide more information on this? Is this a formal training program, or just a Council or District thing? I am the new District Training Chair, and asked the question "who can teach YP"...all I got from my DE, district commissioner and district chairman were blank stares....the procedure has been "anyone can teach it who wants to...all they need to do is check out the video and make sure they are putting out the proper policy." Seems to me if we are all supposed to be on the same sheet music, there needs to be a more formal, Nationally-enforced policy.

To carry this logic a step further...I am a BSA Lifeguard Counsellor and Aquatics Instructor...in every BSALG class I have ever taught, scouts show up who can't demonstrate a proper breast stroke, side stroke, etc...some can't even swim a length of the 25 yard pool. Should they not have their Swimming and Lifesaving Merit Badges revoked and bust them back to Tenderfoot until they can prove they can meet the requirements properly???? Now that we've purged our ranks of queers and atheists, who can we go after next? Philanderers? Wife beaters? Alcoholics? Anyone who's ever cheated on an exam? Cheated on their income tax? Had premarital sex? How about all us fat guys ...should we get our Eagle square knots publicly ripped off our shirts too? God and morality aren't the only criteria in the Oath and Law, you know...The line forms here. Go ahead, guys...cast the first stone. Let's see who's left standing to "Deliver the Promise". "When they came after the Jews, I remained silent because I wasn't a Jew....and then they came after me and there was no one left to speak out."

As a trainer, I don't advocate openly anything but full BSA uniforming. If asked, I will quote BSA policy. However, I did recently purchase a pair of new OD green BDU pants from www.military.com for $18.99. For district/Council meetings, Courts of Honor, camporee opening and closing ceremonies, and training sessions, I'll gladly wear my $40 pair of cheaply made official BSA trousers...for troop meeetings, camping, hiking, and other things, I'll stick to my $20 BDUs or $12 blue jeans (Costco), so I won't have a fit if I rip out a knee or splatter bacon grease on them. The BSA needs to get real. $43 for a shirt (XXL at the local Scout Shop) and $38 for pants is ridiculous. And for those who don't know, there is officially no such thing as a "Class A" or "Class B" uniform. As far as BSA is concerned, you are either in uniform, or not. BY the way, I attended the Council Trainer Development Conference yesterday, and we were sternly and rudely lectured by the senior staff guy present (6 rows of square knots, including a "Silver Antelope") for wearing "half a uniform" (some had blue jeans on, in accordance with their unit custom or policy). Having spent a great deal of time reading the "Insignia Guide", I then started looking for a Council or District rep on the course staff who had all of their stuff in the right place...guess what, I didn't find one. What did I find? Wearing troop numbers with a Council or District position patch...position patches in the wrong positions (should be touching CSP - Position 2, if there are no unit numbers), wearing the "trained" strip for the wrong position, adults wearing unapproved patrol patches, too many Quality Unit patches (only the latest one earned may be worn and then only by unit scouters, not district or council scouters), OA lodge "trader flaps" on the pocket flap, Brotherhood and Vigil members wearing an Ordeal flap (different color borders), no service stars, wrong color shoulder loops, no OA pocket ribbons, "Proud Parent" ribbons, etc, etc, etc. The moral of this diatribe is two-fold: make sure your own uniform is perfect (check a uniform inspection sheet and the Insignia Guide if you don't know) before you dare to criticize others, and 2) the way uniforming is currently done, I will need 4 different shirts, costing almost $200 (with patches)depending on which meeting I'm going to, to be considered "properly uniformed"....that's unreasonable, and it ain't gonna happen.

Yes, my tongue was firmly planted in cheek. The reality is, it's extremely difficult to fill all the volunteer positions that "the book" says we should have ... especially in a "new" district such as ours (a 3 for 1 split). At the District meeting, the Chairman was lamenting the fact that we didn't have enough commissioners...but he was preaching to the choir...the few of us who showed up for the District meeting (and not a COR among us!) already are holding down 3-4 registered positions apiece. I do have a full time job and family, which more often than not, gets in the way of my Scouting career, so I have found myself increasingly sitting on my hands when the call goes out for help. Before I get too long-winded, perhaps it's time for the BSA to take a hard look at how best to use the shrinking pool of volunteer time that people are willing to donate. Do we really still need Unit Commissioners, or should we convert them into a mobile team of "Training Commissioners" or "mentors", so that Unit leaders are more confident and better trained? When we schedule formal training sessions, a typical turnout is 10-15 leaders...a mere fraction of those who need it; again the time demands on leaders are preventing them from giving up a weekend or a series of evenings to listen to a canned presentation which insults their adult intelligence. My concept is to handle "New Leader Essentials" and Youth Protection at the unit level (which I hear is the plan for "Pack Trainers", but hasn't been fully implemented), and then assigning each new leader a "mentor" (experienced leader) for one on one Leader Specific training who can be a phone call away to answer questions, offer encouragement, and share experiences of what works and what doesn't. Then, next year, that leader becomes a "mentor" for another new leader.

Interesting reading...being a "right-coaster" for all my life, I have never heard of Mic-O-Say until I read about it here. I am amazed that the BSA allows an unofficial organization with such similar themes compete with the officially sanctioned Order of the Arrow, which has been an official program of the BSA since 1948. By the way, I have personally been acquainted with two pedophiles in my life. One was my OA Lodge Advisor and the other was hired by the Council to be the Camp Director. Both were convicted and served prison terms and generated tons of nasty publicity that permanently damaged our program. They were both Eagle scouts and OA Vigil Honor recipients. The Advisor was a Silver Beaver. Pedophiles are probably still walking among our ranks, maybe even reading these posts to get a better understanding of our programs and procedures. Only by being vigilant and rigorously enforcing Youth Protection and the G2SS rules, even when they are inconvenient or you think you are among trustworthy and honorable people, can we deny them of their prey.

I've been a Cubmaster, Committee Chairman and Scoutmaster for 20 years. What's a Unit Commissioner???

I'm not a Mormon, but we have some LDS units in our Council. The most obvious difference is at Camporees they all pack up and leave on Saturday night, because apparently they are not allowed to do anything on a Sunday, except go to church. I also recently taught CS Leader training and a brand new CM told me that his religious leader had "ordered" him to be the Cubmaster and go to training as his "job" within the church. Also, I think by BSA policy, all units have to be open to all boys regardless of race or religion, but in practice I don't think that happens...non-LDS boys are not actively excluded, but I don't think they are actively recruited, either (such as at school night Roundups). These are just my observations, and I'm sure if I'm wrong, you know who will set us straight.

I'm new to this site and these forums but am finding them infinitely more stimulating than the Yahoo group I subscribe to!!! I perhaps have a unique perspective. I joined Cub Scouts in 1963 and have been in the program ever since, except for a brief hiatus to go to college, get married and produce two Scouts of my own. I was a Cub for 2 years, a Scout for 3 and then joined an Explorer Post at age 14. Due to my parents' and Explorer Advisor's encouragement, I was the Post's first Eagle in 1970. These were also the first years that Exploring became co-ed...the fore-runner of Venturing. Looking back, our Advisors were either Saints or insane! Things went on during camping trips that would make national news headlines today! There was no "youth protection" or official policies about separate facilities. Our Post was sponsored by a Rescue Squad, so we all got the same training as the Squad members, and when our members reached age 18, they were invited to become official Squad members. The Squad gave us our own ambulance (which our Advisor was licensed to operate), and we were the "first aid" staff at all council functions. It was a great program, and I'm sorry it's not as viable as it once was. Were girls a disadvantage? Well, it depends on what you want to teach the kids. On the one hand, we guys were a little restrained when it came to doing "guy stuff" (you guys know what I mean). On the other hand, we learned to see girls, not as "the opposite sex", but as co-workers on the first aid team. And, I might add, most of the girls were also registered Girl Scouts, but preferred our program (or maybe the boys!). Fast forward to today. Guess what, the GOB network is alive and well, even for us guys. I tried to volunteer to go to the last Jambo...I said, "I have lots of vacation time and I'll drive the trash truck if I need to, I just want to go." I was told, "Sorry, we have everyone we need. You're welcome to come for the day as a visitor if you want". Seems like the same old names show up all the time whether it's Silver Beaver, Jamboree Staff, Philmont, OA, you name it. Even the Youth have their own Good Ol' Youth network when it comes to OA, Philmont, and Jambo. What really causes heartburn is to see a female sign up as a leader, get in the OA a year later, and wearing a Vigil Sash a year after that. The guys don't seem to be so fortunate. So the moral is, it's more important to volunteer for a few highly visible "staff" jobs than it is to work your butt off at the Unit level where the rubber meets the road. So I agree with your statement that the males and females are not treated equally. It works both ways. And I hope that your research shows that the BSA dynamics are no different from any other organization...it is merely a microcosm of society with the same biases, flaws and imperfections. It's up to us to make a difference.

YES we need a new uniform!!!! The current uniform is very poor quality in both fabric and construction, not to mention it costs twice as much as it should for what you get. I refuse to pay $43 for a shirt!!! First of all, design a shirt that doesn't shrink around the middle and put buttons at the belly that will stay buttoned! ;-) I was a Scout in the 60s and the uniforms then were ideal, in my opinion. The winter shirt was long sleeved and of a heavier gabardine fabric. It had a placket front and pleated shirt pockets. The summer shirt was a lighter poly/cotton blend that didn't "pill". There was no collar, so it really looked ridiculous and incomplete without a neckerchief. No epaulets, so those with multiple positions weren't constantly conflicted over which color to wear. Overall, the uniform design was sharper, with a more "tailored" look. Adults wore a tie for all but the most casual occasions. And the "overseas" cap was comfortable and easy to store tucked in your belt. I recently purchased a used shirt on eBay and when it arrived, I was pleasantly surprised to find it was 100% cotton, so it must have been a special order. It really looks good and feels good when it's pressed and starched. But it is a pain! One other thing I would like to see...eliminate those patches that have to be replaced periodically, like the Quality Unit patch. How about a special shoulder loop with gold trim and/or the current year to denote a QU??? Easy and cheap!

Our District has recently been "forced" to split into three. Apparently that was a CE decision, and our perception as volunteers it is a thinly disguised attempt at "Empire Building". The decision was made and dumped in the laps of the volunteers, who are struggling mightily to keep things running. Suddenly we need 75 new District volunteer positions...only 30 of which are filled after 6 months. Many of us are registered in 3-4 positions because there is no one else to do it. The OA chapter, once the pride of the Lodge, is also struggling...now we don't even have enough youth to fill all of the offices and committee positions. Several of the "old timers" have thrown up their hands and walked away. Our DE is great, but is clearly struggling to "meet the numbers" as well. This is clearly unfair. I want to put in a good word for DEs, because this one is able to roll his sleeves up and work along side us. I have seen him doing all kinds of things, from giving FOS presentations, to teaching a new Tiger Cub how to hold a bow and arrow. I have even seen him splitting wood at the Council Camp for the firewood sale on a Sunday afternoon. He just announced to us that he will be the Summer Camp Director for 03. Too bad he may soon be history because he has to tell his boss we didn't meet our "numbers", even though they were unrealistic. Notice I said "we". While the DE's job is to support the volunteers in providing the program, the reality is that when it comes time for annual appraisal time, the boss says "show me the numbers." Perhaps the system needs to be changed...what do the DE's "customers" think of the job he is doing? That's what the boss should care about.