scoutingagain

What a bunch of party animals! We'll probably catch the early fireworks show here in Beantown, head home and be in bed probably by 11:00. Happy New Year to all. SA

le Voyager, No argument from me. I sincerely find the information you and NJ have provided most informative. eisely, you said. "Whatever you may feel about our invasion of Iraq, similar observations could be made about non-Iraqis now being captured in Iraq. What business is this of theirs? They cannot be said to be trying to liberate their own territory since what they are trying to do is reinstate the former regime." I don't think the foreign fighters are trying to reinstate the former regime as much as just kill Americans and their allies. I agree though they would appear not to be a party to the original conflict and as you noted not provided POW status. Organized, Iraqi insurgents would be more likely to be able to make such a claim. Since there seems to be some consensus in not granting detained Al Queada members POW status, I have another question that is more relevant to the original article. Under what conditions or circumstances might civilian authorities be able to detain individuals without providing the detained individual access to his/her constitutional rights? i.e. due process, access to a lawyer, trial, etc. Are there such circumstances under out current legal system? SA

Thanks NJ for your thoughts and response. I find your posts quite educational. I hope you take pro bono(I think that's the correct term) credit for the time you spend educating us laymen on the board. SA

The two activities I enjoy the most are downhill skiing and sailing. In the winter, I ski when I can with my two boys and in the summer, sail with my wife. The big challenge is doing both as economically as possible and still pay a mortgage, car payment, show up for work, do home improvement projects, yada, yada, yada,... SA

le Voyager, Thank you for the information on the Geneva Convention. I don't pretend to be too much of a historian or legal genious and after many references to the Geneva Convention it is interesting to see some of the information you provided. Prehaps you or NJ, could comment on the phrase that appears several times in your reference, "... conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war." It would seem to me that members of an organization that takes over civilian airliners to target civilian populations, openly acknowledges such activity, trains others to perform similar acts and those governments and their agents that harbor such an organization do not conduct "..their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war." and lose their status as POWs. Just my admittedly uneducated and biased interpretation. (I don't mean to be sarcastic, I truely have little knowledge or experience in these matters, but it doesn't prevent me from forming an opinion.) SA

We have started doing a multi-day summer trip in addition to traditional summer camp. Last year we went to Gettysburg and all that went participated in, and earned the Gettysburg Heritage Trails award. This year we will be spending several days in northern Maine where a a whitewater raft trip and an assualt on Mt. Katahdin(Highest point in Maine and northern terminus of the Appalachian Trail) is on the itinerary. SA

Like some of the other poster's the most memorable thing I have was given by my father(who just celebrated his 80th birthday). After the war (WWII) the first job he had was working at a Scout Camp before he went off to college on the GI bill. He had never been a scout, but was impressed with the program and I guess that's why he had my brothers and I sign up when we were old enough. While at this camp he happened to buy an official Boy Scout pocket knife, with a pearl white handle. I have never seen another like it. I now have the knife and it will go to my son, if he makes Eagle. If not, it will get to him at some point. If you have something of sentimental value from your scouting career, passing it on to your son, as others have noted, is as good a suggestion as I can think of. Congradulations to you and your son. SA

It isn't exactly a present, since I had to pay for it, but I did get permission from She Who Must Be Obeyed to buy it, so in that sense it is a gift. One of the dads in our troop who is a welder, converted the back end of a relatively new pickup truck into a utility trailer. He also added a watertight compartment in front of the truck bed. He had it up for sale, just to get rid of what was left of the truck after an accident I guess, and I bought it. Now I can haul up to 6 scouts, myself and gear along on a trip, which is about the only use I will get out of this thing. So if you see late model converted pickup bed hauling down the road with a bunch of camping gear being pulled by an SUV with scouts in it, it's probably me... Scouting Again

Our troop has always gone to the council camp and frankly I don't think has ever considered going out of council. Personally I like the idea of the in council/out of council schedule every other year. SA

A couple of thoughts. As noted earlier, scouting I believe is perceived by the general public as associated with conservative social values and conservative religious institutions. Good, bad or neither, this association limits the pool of potential members. When I was a kid there was a commercial on TV that showed scouts camping, hiking and whitewater canoeing. The only time I see scouting in the media today is when it is involved with some social controversy like the Philly City Council. Bob White has noted the issue isn't the program it's leadership at the unit level. Participation in the Pack I was associated with and the Troop I am currently associated with has been directly related to the quality of adult leadership. Having said that, much has been made of the commitment requirements of youth to sports or other activities. What about the commitment expected by employers of adults/parents. Many adults/parents today are frankly overwelmed by their jobs. Employers expect a 24/7 commitment. I've been in the workforce for over 25 years and only in the last three have I been fortunate to be in a position and have an employer that allows me the time to support scouting. And if it's not the employer, overall commuting time to/from work is up substantially than when it was in the 60s. Not long ago a 1 hour commute would have been considered a long commute to a job, now it's routine for many. This significantly limits the pool of quality adult leadership and the quality of the adult leadership is the single greatest factor effecting the quality of the program that's delivered at the unit level. For some of us it might be tough to admit because we enjoy it so much, but scouting is not for everyone. Not all kids like to camp, hike, etc. Just like not all kids are into team sports. "No one gets kicked off the team." Correct. There is no starting line up, there is no second string, there are no cuts, there is no bench, everyone plays all the time. All they have to do is show up. This is the big diffence between scouting and sports and I think it's a positive difference. I'm not against sports or competition, but scouting gives a kid opportunities that they won't get anywhere else and that's a big part of the message we need to send. SA

Happy Holidays and wishes for a safe and prosperous scouting New Year for all. SA

Ok I'll come down off my horse. As a safety and health professional I'll admit to being a little sensitive towards attitudes towards safety. I need to develop a thicker skin. But I can tell you there are extremely dangerous activities conducted, resulting in few or no accidents that are the result of commitment on the part of leadership, commitment on the part of those executing the activity, planning, training and discipline. Rooster, I agree with your post. But "reasonable" cost/benefit or risk/benefit analysis must be done at both ends. It is my understanding the benefit of this cannon was to produce a loud, inspirational noise in ceremonies. The method chosen to achieve this involved a youth handling explosive material. Is this a reasonable benefit for the risks that are incurred? It appears others have examined this process and developed ways to achieve the same effect without the same level of risk. This is what safety is about. Not arbitrarily stopping work or activities but comming up with solutions to allow reasonable activities to proceed without undue risk. Let's use this tragic accident as a reminder to recommit to examining how we plan our activities and to conduct them as safely as possible. Sorry, didn't mean to get off the horse only to get on the soapbox. SA

"Maybe not, but the safery patrol likes to make their arbitrary rules. That's how the Ferrari F40 wound up with motorized "Mice" seatbelts instead of the standard Ferrari 5 point harness. " FOG, if you drive a Ferrari F40 and are disappointed with it's seatbelt system, you have my deepest sympathies. SA

"So you are in favor of the flag raisers wearing hard hats? " If it has the potential to save a life ... yes, in this instance though I'm not sure a hard hat was the answer. FOG, I'll admit I enjoy your somewhat acerbic wit now and then, but your attitude towards basic safety and health requirements really needs adjustment. Accident prevention is not about the enforcement of arbitrary rules. It's about examining an action or activity, identifying what could go wrong and taking precautions to prevent accidents. It's also about having the courage and persistende to bring safety issues to the attention of those that can make a difference. We will not know whose life may have been saved or injury prevented by Bob White's insistence of taking steps to correct actions he knew to be dangerous. May we all be so inspired and work towards a safer and healthier New Year. SA

NJ, I agree that this process is primarily "diplomatic" in the UN sense of the word. It seems all parties want a statement that is sufficiently vague so all can go back to their respective constituencies and say, "They agreed with us." and life can go on as before. SA

A lot of good advice. If one of the issues is advancement that is not consistent with BSA policies, I suggest one position you can take on or you will at the very least need an ally in, is the postion of advancement chair. This person should maintain advancement records and provide the official advancement record to your local Council. Others have indicated you proceed with patience and I concurr. The advancement chair can begin by correcting the merit badge process. I suggest you work with the boys, not the parents. Explain to them the process and what will be considered as acceptable evidence of completing requirements. If parents complain, for the most part, I would tell them, "Have your son talk to me and we'll work something out." Then explain to the boy the correct process to complete the MB requirements, and help make it happen for the boy. Initially you may have to do more than would typically be expected to get the boys to work with MB counselors, but it is important that the message be sent that MB counselors, not parents, sign off on MBs. Of course parents can register as MB counselors, but should be discouraged from signing requirements for their own son. One exception is usually when there is a group working on the MB. And be patient. Don't expect to change things overnight. But I would make the changes for the entire troop and not apply them to just the new scouts. Just some suggestions. SA

Just wishing you a Happy Birthday Dave and many more as a pro scouter. SA

Ok, I'll play. How many boys registered? 28 How many boys active? 20-22 How many Patrols? 3 Does your troop go to summer camp in or out of Council? In Does your troop go to Dist/Council Camporees? Yes Does your troop support FOS? Mildly Does your troop sell Popcorn? No If not, what are your fundraisers? Sell Christmas Wreaths Does your troop use NSP, (Yes) FCFY method? FC usually in 12-18 months Does your troop have a Venture Patrol? No Does your troop have a feeder pack? Yes How does your troop recruit non-Cub Scouts? Word of mouth among scouts. 5 current scouts were not Cubs. Has your troop seen your Unit Commissioner in the past 6 months? Not in the last 36 months Is your Unit Commissioner helpful or a pain? Never met him/her. Does your troop leaders attend Roundtable? Yes How many members are on your troop committee? 8 Active Is your troop boy led? The tough question. I would say yes, but they should be doing more. It's the adult's fault, not the scouts. But this would get into a long history lesson on the rise, fall, and rise of the troop based on recent(5 year) history. Good luck SA

Not that I agree with Mom packing stuff for camp, but which requirement for advancement does this relate to? It seems to me it would be appropriate to encourage the scout to do his own packing,(Mom can always check.)but I don't think it's a reason to hold back advancement if the requirements have been met. I thought we had a similar problem with one of our Star candidates. Not related to advancement, but on camping trips just quizing the guys in the parking lot on who had what equipment, this one lad's reponse was alway's, "It's in my Dad's truck." Dad an ASM was almost always on the trip. The last two trips Dad couldn't go. Guess what, the kid had everything he needed and did fine. My son wouldn't let my wife within 20 yds of his pack. She'd overload with so much stuff you'd need 3 Sherpas? to carry it. You should see her pack when we go on vacation. SA

In this instance I am afraid FOG is correct. Men only think with one organ at a time. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held acountable for what they do though. SA

How do we know your the real Sturgen if you all of a sudden you use punctuation in your posts?

"I don't know whether it is worse to be a racist or to pretend to be one for political gain. It's not good either way." This sentence could apply to anyone of a number of issues in politics today unfortunatly. Change racist to pro-choice, pro-life, fiscal conservative, pro-Iraq war, anti-Iraq war, or just about any issue your choose and it describes many of our elected officials. How many flip flops have been pointed out in the media of many politicians depending on where they are in their career or which audience they are talking to? We had one candidate for governor that when running for local office in the more conservative western part of our state state a strong pro-life message. When running for statewide office several years later, somehow had an epiphany and spoke of a woman's right to choose. I'm sure you can all think of your own examples. SA

I once got discount coupons for airfares on flights that never seemed to have seats available at the applicable airfare. What a deal! SA

DSteele, I too, am sure you will land on your feet somewhere and you and your wife will be stronger for the experience. All I can say is I've been where you are and everything that's been said about things will work out and there's always a market for quality turned out to be true for me and I'm sure it will for you also. It's been true for just about anyone that was worth anything that I've known in your situation. Hang in there and keep us posted. SA

I'm beginning to think nldscout might be right. In Sturgen's troop you have to wait until your 17 to get Eagle but they still have a 45 - 50 % Eagle rate? Something's fishy. SA