scoutingagain

Thought this would be of interest to members of the forum. Ironically, the girls described in the Texas GSTroop in the article are probaly more aligned with the "values" of the BSA, but are ineligible for membership. Anyway I found it interesting that the BSA's female counterparts have their own morality issues to deal with. I'm not taking a position pro or con. SA Some Texans Boycott Girl Scout Cookies By ANGELA K. BROWN, Associated Press Writer CRAWFORD, Texas - Some families are boycotting Thin Mints and Do-Si-Dos and other Girl Scout cookies. Troop 7527 is down to just two members after the other girls were withdrawn by their parents. And Brownie Troop 7087 is no more. Related Links Girl Scout Cookies (Girl Scouts) Why are folks in this conservative Texas town where President Bush has his ranch so mad at the Girl Scout organization? Planned Parenthood (news - web sites) and sex education. The furor was started a few weeks ago by the leader of the anti-abortion group Pro-Life Waco, who sent out e-mails and ran ads on a Christian radio station urging people to boycott Girl Scout cookies because of the "cozy relationship" between the Girl Scouts and Planned Parenthood. Parents were upset to learn that the local Girl Scout organization had given a "woman of distinction award" last year to a Planned Parenthood executive. And they were disturbed to find out that the Girl Scout organization has been giving its endorsement for years to a Planned Parenthood sex-ed program in which girls and boys are given literature on homosexuality, masturbation and condoms. "It's not that we're a bunch of activists. We're just a bunch of moms who care about their kids," said Lisa Aguilar, who took her 10-year-old daughter out of her eight-member Girl Scout troop. "For us, it's the morality. Where is Girl Scouts going?" The two troops in Crawford, population 700, decided not to deliver the cookie orders that they had already taken. But cookie sales have skyrocketed this year as many people bought cases just to show their support for the Girl Scouts, said Becky Parker, a troop leader who is the cookie distributor for Waco-area troops. "People thought the boycott was ridiculous and was one man's extremist views," Parker said. While the cookie boycott may have backfired, the furor prompted the parent leaders of the two Crawford troops to quit. "You're telling these girls to raise their fingers up to pledge to honor God and country, and yet you're handing out materials saying homosexuality is OK," said Brownie leader Donna Coody, who disbanded her five-member troop. Because of the uproar, the Bluebonnet Council of Girl Scouts, which oversees troops in the Waco area and 13 other counties, announced last week that it would not be affiliated with Planned Parenthood sex-education programs this year. In an editorial in Friday's Waco Tribune-Herald, Pam Smallwood, the Planned Parenthood of Central Texas executive director who was honored by the Girl Scouts last year, complained that Girl Scouts had thereby demonstrated that "bullying tactics are more effective than an informed democracy." The Waco-area Girl Scout organization has been putting its name and logo on brochures for the Planned Parenthood sex-education programs but said it does not contribute any money and does not send girls to attend. Some 400 to 700 fifth- through ninth-graders attend the half-day Nobody's Fool conference in Waco each July. The program never mentions abortion, according to Planned Parenthood. The youngsters receive a book with chapters on homosexuality and masturbation, as well as illustrations of couples having sex, people examining their naked bodies and a boy putting on a condom. Some Girl Scout mothers called it soft-core porn. "It embarrassed me to look at it with my husband," said parent Shannon Donaldson. Pro-Life Waco director John Pisciotta, an economics professor at Baylor, the world's largest Baptist university, said his call for a cookie boycott "was a way to bring attention to the issue and wasn't really about cookies." The Girl Scouts national organization, which is based in New York and has 2.9 million girl members and 986,000 adult members, takes no position on sex education or abortion and has no national relationship with Planned Parenthood, according to the Bluebonnet Council. The Crawford mothers are forming their own girls organization and will use a Christian-based curriculum. Beth Vivio, director of the Bluebonnett Council, declined to say if parents in any other troops had taken their daughters out. Some parents decided to explain abortion to their girls. Others gave only a vague explanation about the uproar. "Our girls have been through a lot these past three weeks," said Jennifer Smith, who quit as leader of Girl Scout Troop 7527 and removed her daughter. "After I told my 10-year-old daughter that they are supporting some things that are not morally right, she understood."

Gee Rooster, I saw the headline of this thread and I thought you were going to discuss President Busch. I was all excited about a possible topic that didn't start with Wheeler. I share your pain. I too have seen my ratings slashed. I guess I don't know enough Greek. SA

One thought I had while reading this thread was, if the boys get significant experience camping in Cub Scouts, what's to offer them in Boy Scouts? We already see some of this in our Troop on the Klondike Derby. Most of the older scouts have no interest. They have been doing Klondikes since they were First Year Webelos. There seems to be some value in drawing out the experiences in scouting. I like this aspect of scouting. In others areas of life everyone seems to want to push younger kids into doing more and at an earlier age. At some point do we want to be the first Den Leader to take a Wolf Den to Philmont? I'm not against Cub Camping. But the way the program currently has it set up seems to be right to me. Outdoor activities as Cubs, Family camping as Webelos and letting the boys camp on their own(with adult oversight) as they become Boy Scouts. Sure some kids could handle things at faster pace, and parents are free to take their own kids camping, backpacking or up Mt. Everest if they think the program slows them down. The BSA camping program is aimed at meeting the needs of many different individuals and skill levels. SA

So is everyone busy counting the references above to confirm or disprove their authenticity? Or should I consider it "Truth" or just Wheeler's knowledge? See, if we all would be willing to give up our materialist lifestyles and stop spending time earning money, we too can come to know these things. Although then I would not have a vehicle and would not have been able to take a group of scouts along on a snowshoe trip this past weekend. I'm so confused. SA

I've been on the road the past few weeks and havn't had time to respond or post much, but have been lurking some. Given some of the current topics I don't now where I'd begin and question if it's worth the effort. OGE's caveat to those that don't read these posts regularly is well timed and gets another thumbs up. SA

How could I have been so stupid? Of course "A Man Needs A Maid" Neil Young My life is changing in so many ways I don't know who to trust anymore There's a shadow running thru my days Like a beggar going from door to door. I was thinking that maybe I'd get a maid Find a place nearby for her to stay. Just someone to keep my house clean, Fix my meals and go away. A maid. A man needs a maid. A maid. It's hard to make that change When life and love turns strange. And old. To give a love, you gotta live a love. To live a love, you gotta be "part of" When will I see you again? A while ago somewhere I don't know when I was watching a movie with a friend. I fell in love with the actress. She was playing a part that I could understand. A maid. A man needs a maid. A maid. When will I see you again? And then there is always "Old Man" SA

OGE, I appreciate your reminder of Loudon's one hit wonder. But we're discussing great philosophers and men. To truly appreciate Loudon Wainwright's understanding of the male psyche I would refer you to his writings in " Bein' a Dad", "Conversations with a Son" and "Grown Man". However few can argue that there is a contemporary writer/musician that understands the teenage male pysche better than Brian Wilson. In addition to "When I Grow Up", I refer the reader to "In My Room" and "Surfer Girl". I'm sure somewhere Neil Young had something to say about manhood, I just can't recall and his lyrics are as cryptic as Wheeler. (What is a cowgirl in the sand?) For those who truely wish to raise men, I suggest moving to New Hampsire. In refering to the great Granite State's icon of the Old Man in the Mountain, a rock formation with a rugged facial profile, Daniel Webster once said, ..."Men hang out their signs indicative of their respective trades; shoe makers hang out a gigantic shoe; jewelers a monster watch, and the dentist hangs out a gold tooth; but up in the Mountains of New Hampshire, God Almighty has hung out a sign to show that there He makes men." SA

"Wheelists" study "Wheelism". SA

When I grow up to be a man Will I dig the same things that turn me on as a kid? Will I look back and say that I wish I hadn't done what I did? Will I joke around and still dig those sounds When I grow up to be a man? Will I look for the same things in a woman that I dig in a girl? (fourteen fifteen) Will I settle down fast or will I first wanna travel the world? (sixteen seventeen) Now I'm young and free, but how will it be When I grow up to be a man? Oooooo Ooooooo Oooooooo Will my kids be proud or think their old man is really a square? (eighteen nineteen) When they're out having fun yeah, will I still wanna have my share? (twenty twenty-one) Will I love my wife for the rest of my life When I grow up to be a man? What will I be when I grow up to be a man? (twenty-two twenty-three) Won't last forever (twenty-four twenty-five) It's kind of sad (twenty-six twenty-seven) Won't last forever (twenty-eight twenty-nine) It's kind of sad (thirty thirty-one) Won't last forever (thirty-two . . .) Brian Wilson Men Loudon Wainwright III Copyright 1992 Snowden Music, Inc. When a ship is sinking and they lower the lifeboats And hand out the life jackets, the men keep on their coats The women and the children are the ones who must go first And the men who try to save their skins are cowards and are cursed Every man's a captain, men know how to drown Man the lifeboats if there's room, otherwise go down And it's the same when there's a war on: it's the men who go to fight Women and children are civilians, when they're killed it's not right Men kill men in uniform, its the way war goes When they run they're cowards, when they stay they are heroes Every man's a general, men go off to war The battlefields a man's world, cannon fodders what they're for It's the men who have the power, it's the men who have the might And the world's a place of horror because each man thinks he's right A man's home is his castle so the family let him in But what's important in that kingdom is the women and the children A husband and a father, every man's a king But he's really just a drone, gathers no honey, has no sting Have pity on the general, the king, and the captain They know they're expendable, after all they're men I can cut & paste from great philosophers too. SA

OK, all together... Happy birthday to you Happy birthday to you Happy birthday Hops Scout Happy birthday tooo youuuu! Me, Born in the mid-fifties in Central New Jersey on a typical hot, steamy mid-atlantic July day. SA

"When a man has a serious outlook, he participates in serious things. When a man has an "I want to be amused outlook", then that is what he searches for. " "My joy is in reading and learning and not making money, so I have to trade off. " Wheeler, I'm curious as to how you reconcile your current condition of poverty with the above statements. You are obviously intelligent, yet choose to work odd jobs and are clearly capable of more intellectually challenging work that would pay more. You complain that some young men avoid serious work and you scold them for their laziness. Yet you avoid serious work yourself. It is easy to avoid a responsible job with deadlines, responsiblities, accountability etc. and hide from real life in a series of low level positions. Yes life is tough. One of the things scouting teaches us though is to live up to responsibilities and one's potential. You can sit in libraries, read, quote numerous philosophers, but how do you contribute to society? How do you improve it? I suspect you work enough so you do not collect government assistance, but you strike me as someone who could contribute much more than just not being a burden to society and having us read through your intellectual musings. It is not about seeking monetary wealth, but contributing to society as effectively as you can. I've read through much of what you posted and find little that appears coherent or is of much value to me. I have learned a thing or two, but it has not been worth the effort to wade through your lengthy posts. All are welcome here in these forums as long as you respect the rules. I will continue to read your posts. I would like to hear how you, as a healthy adult man, can contribute to society and help make it better. Your service as a Marine is certainly a big contribution. I don't wish to sound rude, but I think you have it in you to do more than take up cyberspace. SA

Wheeler said: "I am a creation of God. God made a form from the mud, and BREATHED into it spirit. All men are reproductions of this first man. We have differentiated into races but we are all created." Firstpusk responded" "So it appears that you accept the creation story in Genesis chapter 2. What scientific evidence do you have to support your view that this is historically and scientifically correct? May I also take it that you then believe that the account in Genesis chapter 1 is not accurate? What scientific evidence do you have to support this conclusion?" I have to disagree Firstpusk. After discussing creation, Wheeler than stated, "Human reasoning can not know this; only divine revelation, 'revealed' it to us. " Seems to me he acknowledges creation as described in the Bible is not science but faith and cannot be proven. SA

I agree that an axe and saw can be used safely. As noted, they are tools and if cared for and used properly should not be an issue. I'm with those that find a saw a more useful tool on a camping trip than an axe. We usually go through the totin' chip with the new scouts in the first month or so in the fall. There is also a session we hold just before summer camp so new scouts can get a totin' chip before camp. In the past three years we have had two minor injuries associated with knives. Small cuts, nothing so serious as requiring stitches even. They have been used as learning experiences. The trading post at our council camp will not sell a knife to a scout or adult unless they present a totin' chip card. SA

This is actually a good question Eisley. This is about a group that wishes to impose their idea of morality on the rest of us through government legislation. I assume all those that support a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage or otherwise have the government regulate their own interpretation of morality would also support this effort. The days of duck livers in California may be limited. Personally I don't eat livers of anything and am already in a heterosexual marriage so how will this effect me? SA

My thoughts on the uniform. The pants should be replaced with a different style/type. As noted in other threads, many troops do not use the pants. They have spoken with their actions and wallets. A non-CAMO BDU style pant, would have much more acceptance, if the price can be maintained at a reasonable level. I also like FOG's idea of a Field Jacket that would go with the pants. SA

Sturgen, Your ongoing commitment to scouting is to be commended. And I agree with you that there are many young people with knowledge, skill and leadership capabilities. I've been very impressed with some of the postings in this forum of some of it's younger members. Outdoor Thinker and Hops come to mind. There are a couple of others as well. But I challenge you to keep your initial post in this thread for 10 or 20 years. Re-read it and see if you don't believe you have more "wisdom" then than you do now. The funny thing about the wisdom that comes with age, is you don't appeciate it until you've experienced some of it yourself. A piece of wisdom you may not appreciate for another 10 or 20 years. I'll admit I didn't appreciate as much when I was younger either. SA

I figured it would not take long for Republicans to respond with their own allegations. In the paper this morning there are allegations that Kerry had an affair with an intern and somewhere a 30+ year old photograph of Kerry in the same frame as Jane Fonda has shown up. The Democrats for their part continue to pick apart any little inconsistancy they can find in GWB's military record and yes the Republicans now sound like the Democrats did when Clinton ran. The Republicans have also prepared the electorate with the warning that the Democrats are preparing to wage one of the dirtiest campaigns in recent memory. I guess they have learned something from the Republicans. I expect a continued campaign by both sides avoiding discussion of issues and continued accusations. My personal opinion is if the Republicans really thought character counted John McCain would have been their nominee 4 years ago. But I guess they figured if the North Vietnamese couldn't get him to dance he wouldn't dance for the Republican National Committee either. I expect a continued campaign by both sides avoiding discussion of issues and continued accusations. In the end many of us will be disgusted with either candidate and end up holding our nose again in the voting booth. SA

FOG, I agree with you. Last time around the Democrats had not much better evidence of military service for their guy than GWB so they didn't make it an issue. This time they will. The OpEd piece specifically acused Kerry of making it an issue. I figured if that were so something would be on his website. I have no doubt both sides will sling more stuff at their opponent before the election. The dirtier the accusation, the source will be further removed from the actual candidate. After several losses I suspect the Democrats have learned quite abit about campaigning from the Republicans. I'm not expecting the high road from either side based on past campaigns. SA

Some suggestions: Get a decent supply of those disposable hand/foot warmers. They are light and do put out a fair amount of warmth even if they get a little damp. Keep the scouts moving. Keep 'em dry as best you can. Warm soup or hot chocolate is easy to make and warms 'em up quick. If you are somewhere you can start a fire, keeping a fire going is great. While frostbite doesn't sound like too much of a concern based on the weather forcast, don't underestimate the possibility of hypothermia. Watch for kids who are shivering. Don't count on the boys to come up to you to tell you they're cold. Some will not want to seem like a wimp if they admit it, so you will need to keep an eye on them. Cheer up. It's going back below zero around here for the weekend. SA

Now that I'm up to 5 stars I feel I can comment. I'm not worthy. Someone's gotta be yankin my chain here. SA

Both George W. Bush and John Kerry were sons of relatively wealthy families. Both graduated from Yale. George W. Bush volunteered to serve his country in the military in the Air National Guard. Perhaps he was inspired by his father. I don't know enough to make a judgement regarding his service. I know some have asked questions and Mr. Bush is trying to answer those questions. I checked www.johnkerry.com and could find no references to Mr. Bush's service record or questions regarding his service. Doesn't mean it's not there, I just didn't find it. I did find the following: "John Kerry volunteered for service in the Navy during the Vietnam War, where he served as skipper of a swift boat that patrolled the Mekong Delta. Lt. Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, the Bronze Star with Combat V, three Purple Hearts, the Presidential Unit Citation for Extraordinary Heroism, the National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, three Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medals, and the Combat Action Ribbon. He is a cofounder of the Vietnam Veterans of America and a life member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. In the United States Senate, he has led the fight to investigate the fate of POW/MIAs in Vietnam, treat and compensate victims of Agent Orange and study the cause of war-related illnesses in Gulf War veterans. " I'm sure if there is something in the above that is inaccurate, somewhere there is a Republican that will be happy to point it out. SA

We have a close relationship with one Pack. We perform a crossover ceremony for all the Webelos II in the spring. Most start with the troop, some do not. The point of having them all participate is to let the Webelos know they are all welcome to join the troop and they don't need to make a decision at any one point. SA

Good post Zahnada. I agree. In scouting I make a conscious effort to be nonpolitical around scouts and leaders. Occaisionally an issue might come up but it is not discussed for long. I do enjoy a spirited discussion though. Maybe it's my New Jersey upbringing. When my family gets together it's not uncommon for us to have spirited "discussions" on politics, scouting, sports or other subjects. It's how we interact. I may disagree with my father or one of my brothers over an issue but it doesn't diminish my love for them. The "discussions" drive my wife nuts though. She doesn't get how we can be so spirited in our arguments, yet still get along. I see some of that in these forums. People with widely different viewpoints on subjects, yet for the most part there is a high level of respect among participants. There have been good points made on differents sides of many positions. There have been some silly ones as well. All keep the grey matter active. I've mainly picked up some great scouting knowledge. The Issues & Politics threads are just a bonus. SA

Bob White responded to NJ: "According to Webster, nonsectarian means " not affiliated with or restricted to a particular religious group", does NJ now classify homosexuality as a religion? " I don't mean to respond for NJ, but the BSA excludes, does not permit membership, discriminates against avowed homosexuals in leadership positions based on the premise that homosexuals are immoral and do not provide a proper role model for scouts. Assuming morality is part of religious beliefs or teachings I think NJ is getting at the notion that not all religions or religious leaders teach or accept that homosexuality is immoral and that by dicriminating against homosexuals based on moral issues the BSA is not acting in a "nonsectarian" way. NJ can probaly make the point better than I can. In today's Boston Globe for example there are full page adds by various religious groups, Rabbis, Catholic groups, Priests, Protestants, both for and against Gay marriage. If you think the Gay debate rages on in these forums, try spending some time in Bean town this week. We have adds, print & television, thousands of demonstrators on both sides and politicians hoping the whole issue would just go away. When I said that after the Superbowl the papers would be full of the Red Sox I didn't know this was comming. SA

"I have been searching a long time for the BSA message board and I found this. " Man, are we lucky or what? SA