scoutingagain

Rooster, Thanks for starting this thread. I saw this on the news last week, and like all was saddened and awed. I was reminded of a statment I believe was attributed to Admiral Nimitz. While watching flight operations on a carrier deck during the Battle of Midway, sending off a squadron of planes that was nearly certain not to return, the Admiral was heard to say something like, "My God, where do we find men(and today women) such as these?" Rooster, like you I am not a particularly outgoing or demonstrative person. But at our company Chrismas Party this year we had two Marines in dress blues collecting Toys for Tots. I normally just drop a gift, smile and move on. This year I made a point of talking to the two young men, one was from a working class town in Massachusetts, the other from central New Jersey. I thanked them both for their service and shook their hands. It was a private moment, and I had to turn away quickly because I didn't want the Marines to see the tears welling up in my eyes. As Mrs. Smith said this is something we can all agree on. We have an all volunteer service and while not all give up what Pat Tillman did, they all give up years of their youth, a chance to live in peace and other opportunities their peers that do not join enjoy. God Bless them all. SA

Hello again, Good to see other new participants. I've lurked at this site for over a year and started a more active participation last fall. My Scouting Story, My Dad had never been in scouts but, when he got out of the service after WWII one of the first jobs he had was at a Scout Camp for a summer before he went on to college on the GI bill. He must have been impressed with the program because when he had sons, all three of us were signed up as Cubs as soon as we were eligible. I spent over 10 years in scouting as a youth from Cubs to Boy Scouts. Went to Philmont with a provisional group from New Jersey in 1970. Earned my Eagle in 1971, and also have my card and certificate with Richard M. Nixon's signature. One of my brothers also earned his Eagle and the other earned Life. While not officially in scouting in college, I did a lot of outdoor activity. Turned out there were 6 Eagle scouts on my wing in the dorm where I went to college. We planned and did alot of activities and managed to graduate. Fast forward another 10 years or so and I have my own two sons. We get involved with Cub Scouting and both earn their Arrow of Light. Unfortunately my older son, decides Boy Scouting is not for him and drops out to take up other activities. My younger son is still very much involved and has his sights on Eagle. I am currently Advancement Chair for the Troop I serve and am also active in the outdoor program. I am doing my best to help provide these scouts the experience I had as a youth. Like others, I find this site a great source of knowledge, inspiration and occaisonally a laugh or two. SA

I was a Flaming Arrow. When we've consolidated patrols, they have always been with those closest in age/rank. It's never been an issue. I generally concurr with Eamonn. Our Troop is similar in size and we have 4 patrols. A NSP, 2 regular patrols of 7th & 8th graders and 1 Senior Patrol of High Schoolers. I am curious as to why the Mom would want her 12/13 year old in with the older scouts?. SA

OGE, I read through the list and even before I finished I had problems with the greatest loss. To me the greatest loss would be one's integrity. I see this is addressed in the most prized possesion. I would reverse these two. Only because once lost, it is nearly impossible to regains ones integrity, at least in the sense as it is perceived by others. I think it is possible to regain one's self respect as that is an internal assessment. Very minor but a subtle difference. SA

During the summer the Cub Pack that is the feeder Pack for our Troop typically holds two local family campouts. Very informal. Families of both the Pack and Troop are invited to attend. The Troop does a week at the Council Summer Camp and starting last summer, does one other multi-day trip. Last year we went to Gettysburg for 4 days, this year we will go to Maine for some Whitewater Rafting and hiking. We have been getting a strong turnout for these trips with 80% of the troop and more than the usual number of adults and parents participating. SA

Put me in the "I don't squelch camp." SA

I've been monitoring this thread but havn't had the time to respond until now. "Take him with a grain of salt, and look for the good. " This statement from KS pretty much sums up my thoughts on FOG and several others on the forum. The only real issue I would have with FOG is the level of personal comments regarding another poster. Other than that, while his comments can be direct, they are frequently insightful. Ironically I could apply the same statement to BW. I enjoy the exchange here in the forums, even those I disagree with. An organized campaign to squelch a user seems rather extreme to me. Frankly, I would prefer not to comment on the specifics of personalities because I don't think we get enough info from just the posts here to judge people and will admit I'm uncomfortable with this response. SA

Shell, I appologize, I did not mean to imply anything about all Moms, just this one. Her heart is in the right place and she has been associated with scouting for nearly 15 years, has raised 2 Eagles and will likely have a third by the end of next year. She is usually more involved with committee activities but when working with the scouts just can't seem to let them go. I'll give her alot of credit because she is one the few Moms that will actually come camping. SA

SPL - Just turned 17, finishing up his Eagle project and will be ready for EAGLE BOR probably in late spring or early fall. ASPLS - 15, 16 Both Star Instructors - 17, Life & 15, Star Regular PLs, 12,2nd Class, 14, 1st Class & 15, Star. Our patrols are generally grouped by age. SA

I am not a junior leader either but the following two statments by OGE and Shell pretty much describes how our troop sets up camp. "Our troop generally sets up by patrol in a cluster. Thats a technical term for having a myriad of different tent types close together. They tend to cluster around where the patrol chuck box and fly is, although we do let members of different patrols "tent" together, they cook by patrols." & "Usually, from an adult's perspective, it "looks" kaotic but eventually, you start to see a pattern to their madness and tents will start to pop up and kitchens are formed, etc. Usually it depends on how the site is as to where and how the sites are set up. But I've noticed that no one in our troop likes things "all in a row." The only time I've seen them do that is if we are at Camporee or something like that." All I know is unless we have one specific mom along on a campout there is essentially no adult input on how the scouts set up camp. SA

I'll admit that since their novelty has worn off, I don't see how they add much. It would not bother me to see them go away. SA

"I'm sure that if a 400 lb man waved a million dollar check at National, Philmont would let him go on a trek and have a Medivac helicopter on standby. " As I said, as a private camp, Philmont is free to set it's own criteria for participation. They are also free to change the criteria when they wish and they are free to change them back again. SA

Let me add my welcome as well, Billr. As usual lots of good advice from the usual knowledgeable participants. I'll just add my two cents. I share your idea that scouting is more than just advancement. I would be inclined to have a conference with the scout and his parents and explain the total picture of scouting and how you as scoutmaster deliver scouting to the troop you serve. I would let them know they are welcome to participate and as long as the prespective scout meets the requirements for advancement, including the scout spirit, participation, service projects and leadership requirements there is no reason the scout could not reach the goal of Eagle. However, I would be clear that if all the scout is interested in is advancement, he may want to reconsider membership, because without the level of participation you expect to meet all of the advancement criteria, it is not likely he would complete all the requirements for Eagle. As an aside, we recently had a scout earn his Eagle Rank after joining the troop when he was in 8th grade. However, he was very active. Went to summer camp every summer, participated in most troop meetings and campouts, was elected and served as SPL last year. Scouting was a big part of his life, as he did not partipate in Varsity sports and devoted much of his free time to scouting and the troop. He is now a staff member at summer camp. Good luck, SA

I don't know if it's discrimination but it is certainly age/physique profiling. But as a private camp Philmont, like the BSA, is free to set it's own criteria for participation. As noted in the thread, the criteria does not appear to be arbitrary and seems to be based on at least some level of logic. SA

For those that wonder why somone might join or remain a member of the BSA even though they disagree with their current membership policies. I can only answer for myself, but first and foremost I joined with my son. To my son scouting is fun. Sure he gets much more out of it but to him it's primarily fun. I joined to help him and his troop mates get as much out of scouting as I did. On a day to day basis at the youth level the gay membership issue is not discussed. It is not an issue. I expect scouting in those councils and districts that disagree with the national membership policy goes on much as it does in those councils and districts that do agree. Secondly, as Acco indicates it's a matter of picking ones battles. The gay membership issue is not so great an issue for me that I would deny my son his opportunity to be a part of scouting or my opportunity to share that with him. I see it as no different than those who may believe homosexuality as immoral still taking their family to Disney World inspite of the support the Disney organization gives to the gay community. Sure there are some that refuse to go based on principal, but many others go because they want to enjoy the experience with their families. I also do not disagree with the values of scouting or the Scout Oath and Law. I am also satisfied that the BSA as a private organization can set it's own membership standards. I do disagree with how Oath and Law have been interpreted by the current leadership that sets the membership requirements. My preference would be to leave the issue up to the local CO as the BSA does with many other decisions. This difference of opinion is not sufficient for me to quit an organization I have been associated with and highly regard for nearly 20 years of my life and provides the best opportunity for my son to experience outdoor activities and learn the values of scouting and leadership. While we may thoughtfully discuss the issue as adults, the issue is not discussed with the youth members of the Troop I serve. I would hope that in discussions of the meaning of the Scout Oath and Law, adults are not teaching scouts that gay people are immoral and that's why they can't join scouting as leaders. SA

My own observation is an unsolicited compliment or pat on the back for a job well done is worth much more than a standard certificate or group thank you. BW provides some good examples. It doesn't cost anything and can be given by anyone. SA

eisely, I wish your son well. I pray he gets his job done and gets home safe. You have every right to be a proud Dad. SA

Whya not a chicken?

Round and round we go. The gay debate goes on and on. For now I have just one observation to add. In many threads there are discussions regarding BSA Policies. Be it a ban on certain activities such as martial arts, the fact the uniforms are not a requirement, what can or can't be counted as an overnight campout, whether women should be allowed as leaders, that advancement requirements have been made too easy, the issue of gay membership and other topics. Why is it that I have only seen those that disagree with the gay membership issue asked to leave and start their own organization? SA

"BSA doesn't allow discrimination based on race, so presumably would not allow a church that discriminated on the basis of race to be a CO" The BSA also does not discriminate based on religion, as long as one is willing to abide by the scout oath and law. However, some religious COs limit membership to their troops only to those that are members of their church, temple, mosque or whatever. So while the BSA does not discriminate based on religion, it does allow it's COs to do so. Individuals not belonging to a specific religious entity are not barred from scouting, just some individual units. They are free to seek membership in other units in the area or the lone scout program. In some areas, ie. sexual orientation, the BSA requires that COs discriminate against those who avow their homosexuality, with religion, the BSA allows COs to discriminate. With respect to race, I doubt the BSA would openly condone such discrimination, but as FOG pointed out, I could see how it could happen as a practical matter through the allowance of religious discrimination, and I can think of situations where all races could be discriminated against membership of specific units, not just one. As noted frequently. The BSA is a private organization free to set it's own membership criteria. It is not open to all that wish to join. And as Hunt points out, current national leadership makes those decisions. Not all members agree and those criteria may change. SA

I am well aware the participating in paintball is not a sanctioned BSA activity and is specifically excluded under the GSS. I am also aware that many scouts and scouters occaisionally participate in paintball on their own. With that in mind I am simply passing this link from the Consumer Product Safety Commission on to anyone that does participate in paintball. The referenced article describes a recall of certain paintball guns and describes fatalities that have resulted from equipment failure associated with the equipment. http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml04/04105.html SA

Just to interject: In it's friend of the court brief submitted by the US Justice Department in support of the BSA in the Fiesta Island case, the US Justice Department specifically makes the statment, " The Boy Scouts is Not a Religious Institution under the Establishment Clause." The Brief goes on to make the argument, "More over, a scouts religious beliefs are left to him and his family and are in no way dictated by the Boy Scouts." "At it's heart, the Boy Scouts is a social and recreational organization dedicated to promoting good character, citizenship and personal fitness in boys." "The Departments brief makes clear that the Boy Scouts is not a religious institution, but rather achieves its objectives of developing good character, citizenship, and personal fitness in young boys by focusing on a vigorous program of outdoor activities. " The statments above reflect how the US Justice Department views the Boy Scouts. The full brief can be read from the BSA's legal issues website. I think both foto and Bob White are correct. The BSA is not a religious institution. The US government in it's brief makes a pretty persuasive argument against the idea that the BSA is a religious organization. However, individual troops may be chartered through religious organizations and those religious organizations are free to use scouting as an outreach to their youth members and include more of a religious element in their program if they wish, as long as they don't conflict with the values of the BSA. Other charter organizations may choose to have less of a religious element in the troop's activities, again, as long as they are consistent with the values of the BSA. SA

Be that as it may, at the end of the day, I for one am happy we are no longer discussing issues in Greek. SA

Well I'm no more qualified to respond to this inquiry as any other that I respond to so here goes... My perception, and that's all it is, is that not only are costs up, but consumption is up as well. So if oil companies were selling say 1 million gallons of gas a year ago and making a profit of $1 per gallon they make $1 million. Now, even with higher prices, they are selling say 1.2 million gallons so they make $1.2 million. A very simplified response, and I'm sure they're are other factors. But over the last 5 years or so we have totally forgotten energy conservation. When I got out of school, in the late 70's the first car I owned had a 2.2 liter engine and got 30 mpg. When I got married I bought a minivan with a 2.4 liter engine that got 25 mpg. The next car I got, had a 3.0 liter engine and got 22 mpg. The last vehicle I purchased has a 5.2 liter engine and gets 16 mpg at best. I suspect I'm not alone based on the number of larger SUVs, pickups and other vehicles on the road. In general it seems that when the Texas economy is doing well, the rest of us seem to struggle. When energy is cheap, and oil profits are down, Texas sort of bumps along and the rest of us do better. Remember $0.99/gallon gas and Houstonians were complaining about the economy? The rest of us were in the middle of the dot.com economic orgy. I'm sure once a puppet ..er I mean democratic government is established in Iraq and Iraqi oil is back on the market in significant quantities prices will stablize. The good news here is that with a puppet...pardon me, friendly democratic government in Iraq, there should be less of a reason to be looking for oil in domestic wilderness areas. How's that for a domestic environmental policy. It also wouldn't hurt to build a new refinery or two. There has not been a major refinery built or expansion in this country in quite a while. Sorry, I've become politically pretty cynical lately. The democrats are solving this problem by coming to my town in July and shutting the city down for a week. Since the major expressway going through town will be closed and the largest commuter rail center will be closed for the week of the DNC, no one in Boston will be going anywhere. That should free up enough gas so we can take a summer road trip. OGE you asked and got just some of my ramblings on gas prices etc. Can't wait to see other ideas. SA

For those that have concerns related to using DEET as an insect repellant, you may want to review this article published by the New England Journal of Medicine. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/347/1/13?hits=10&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=nejm&sortspec=PUBDATE_SORTDATE+desc+Score+desc&searchid=1029161136857_11633&fulltext=DEET&HITS=10&searchid=1080594601041_12404&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=nejm In this article 16 different commerically available repellants were tested, including those based on various plant extracts, skin so soft, and another chemical based repellant other than DEET. Among the conclusions in this article: "Currently available non-DEET repellents do not provide protection for durations similar to those of DEET-based repellents and cannot be relied on to provide prolonged protection in environments where mosquito-borne diseases are a substantial threat. " and "Despite the substantial attention paid by the lay press every year to the safety of DEET, this repellent has been subjected to more scientific and toxicologic scrutiny than any other repellent substance. The extensive accumulated toxicologic data on DEET have been reviewed elsewhere.17,35,36,37,38,39 DEET has a remarkable safety profile after 40 years of use and nearly 8 billion human applications.35 Fewer than 50 cases of serious toxic effects have been documented in the medical literature since 1960, and three quarters of them resolved without sequelae.35,37 Many of these cases of toxic effects involved long-term, heavy, frequent, or whole-body application of DEET. No correlation has been found between the concentration of DEET used and the risk of toxic effects. As part of the Reregistration Eligibility Decision on DEET, released in 1998, the Environmental Protection Agency reviewed the accumulated data on the toxicity of DEET and concluded that "normal use of DEET does not present a health concern to the general U.S. population."40 When applied with common sense, DEET-based repellents can be expected to provide a safe as well as a long-lasting repellent effect. Until a better repellent becomes available, DEET-based repellents remain the gold standard of protection under circumstances in which it is crucial to be protected against arthropod bites that might transmit disease. " I have no special interest in promoting the use of DEET products. I do have an interest in promoting healthy outdoor activity. DEET containing products are among the most effective insect repellants available and when used as directed do not pose a health concern. Just passing this information on so folks can make their own determinations as to the risks associated with DEET and whether or not they want to use DEET containing products. SA