scoutingagain

Church, Methodist to be precise. SA

" don't know how you grew up but I was taught if someones throws a punch at you you have every right to defend yourself" So when does one turn the other cheek? SA

"Too bad that's not their agenda though. If it were they would not be against so many religious concerns." Jason, do you mean the case where the ACLU defended the rights of Christians to conduct Baptisms in a public park? SA

SR540BEAV, I'm well aware some COs have little involvement. I'm a member of a unit whose CO is somewhat involved but not to the degree they should be. Those COs that choose to be more vocal members, particularly at the national level, would seem to be able to influence the policiy agenda more so than those that are less vocal. Or a group of COs or franchisees of like mind, as in NielUp's example. SA

BobW, again thanks for the explanation. I think I have a better picture now. The Charter Organizations appoint representatives (COR) that do have some say in how their particular organization is represented at the national level. However the BSA, as a private organization, can choose to accept or reject those organizations it wishes to grant a charter to, exercising it's right to associate with those organizations is wishes to associate with. So while the BSA is not governed by representatives of it's membership, it is governed to some degree by representatives of those chartered organizations that are accepted by the BSA. I can see where this would be confusing to the membership though, since many of us are members of organizations where we have direct input to the leadership of the organization we are members of. Not so with the BSA. We are told what the program is and can choose to be a member or not based on where we might fall on Hunt's scale of dissent. (On THE issue, I would probably be a 3 as well.) SA

We could always bring the stars back! SA

"These people are selected for what they bring as an individual, their skills, knowledge and experience. If the task requires feedback from the field then the committee will search that out. But you cannot run a programs this size through consensus." With all due respect Bob W.,( and I do mean that,) I am a member of professional societies, investor in some large corporations, and a citizen of the US. All these organizations seem to be able to govern themselves quite nicely using a relatively open and democratic system where members, or shareholders, get to elect their leadership. This is also true of many religious organizations. Some are larger and older than the BSA. I have been associated with scouting for over 20 of my 47 years. I can't ever recall being asked to send a vote in for anyone seeking a position at the national level. I can't even recall ever being told a local person that might be elected to a leadership position in an OA lodge would have a say in who might be selected to a national leadership position. I fully support the BSA and probably agree with 90 - 99% of their policies and positions. I fully support their goals. I just find it ironic that the BSA teaches democracy to our youth but does not appear practice it at a level other private organizations seem to be able to. SA

This issue seems to come up every spring. Delusional, well meaning adults seem to take the attitude that kids will drink anyway and they may as well provide a safe place for them to do it. Massachusetts has a social host law as well, and several adult homeowners in nearby towns are charged every year with hosting such events. The law seems to have had some effect the last year or so. Ironically, these events seem to occur in the more affluent towns around us. (My bias I admit.) I can assure those from other parts of the country, anyone from Nahant, MA with a house on a lake in NH, is doing OK financially. And Hop's observation is correct. Those charged never seem to get the idea they were doing anything wrong. SA

I believe manufacture of the lyme disease vaccine has been discontinued. From the CDC Website: " Lyme Disease Vaccine A safe and efficacious vaccine was, until recently, available for protection from Lyme disease in endemic areas of the United States. However, the vaccine was withdrawn from the market by the manufacturer in February 2002 because of low sales and is no longer commercially available. " SA

I see nothing wrong with the concept of one believing that their's is the one true faith, as long as they accept and respect that someone of another faith may have the same conviction about their faith or belief. SA

Note: My last post should have a at the end. SA

Hunt, I tend to agree with you, but it seems as if TP has a point. If some are free to disagree on membership requirements, merit badge couselors, uniforms or whatever, those that disagree with the BSA's policy of tolerance of dissent are also free to express their opinion as well, although I would suggest they are free to form their own organization that does not tolerate dissent if they wish. SA

I thought I had remembered such a requirement but could not find it quickly, hence my post, which was inspired by my subway ride. SA

I didn't know where else to put this so I started this. Riding to work on the subway yesterday I was approached by a young man, I'd guess in his late teens. He was resonably well dressed, slacks, clean shirt. He asked if I could tie his tie for him. (I was one of the few on the train in a shirt and tie.) Now the only way I can tie a Windsor knot is to put the tie around my neck, tie the knot and adjust it. Which is what I did, loosened the knot, lifted it over my head and gave it back to the young man. He put it on and the woman next to us helped him adjust his collar. Apparently he was off to a summer job in an office and had never been taught how to tie a tie. Since we are in the business of preparing young folks and in Boy Scouts, young men, I suggest making the Windsor knot a Tenderfoor requirement. My own son does quite well with his knots and knows all the knots required for First Class, but doesn't know how to tie a Windsor knot. Just a suggestion. For those younger members that may be in the same situation as my son, you can check out http://www.tieanecktie.com/WindsorKnot.php . SA

Thanks Bob, and a wish that all the other Dads had a day as nice as mine. Got to spend the whole day with two teenage sons & their mom. Great weather outside all day. The boys at this stage are usually out and about with their buddies on a weekend. I also got to talk to my Dad, who is my biggest hero. In his 80's he still plays a better golf game than I do, but I can finally beat him at tennis. SA

Having sat on a jury that aquitted an accused child molester I caution against a rush to judgement. In the case I sat on through testimony and cross examination it became pretty obvious a disturbed young man wanted to cause trouble for quiet older gentlemen that lived in his neighborhood. I don't know the facts in this case but based on the article so far there is only one alleged victim. In most cases there are usually multiple victims. I'll wait and see. Any one of us could end up in this man's shoes if a 12, 13 or 14 year old wants to make a beef with local authorities. Some local prosecutors know this type of case will make headlines. Sure YP guidelines could help defend us, but that might not come out until after an article such as this is published and we have our day in court. How would your employer, friends and family react? I see the man's wife supports him. Like I said, I'll wait and see. Should he excuse himself from scouting activities until this is resolved? Absolutely. If found guilty, I would have no problem finding a special place of incarcernation for the man. SA

Goodkidsmom, Well I'm glad your son made the effort to call the SM. Good for him. It may be trivial to others but for him, I'm sure it took a lot of guts. Sorry the outcome wasn't better. As far as summer camp goes, you might want to look into having your son attend with a provisional troop, or look into another scout camp or High Adventure activity on a provisional basis, even with Dad. Sometimes there are last minute cancellations and I wouldn't be suprised if you could find room someplace. I tend to agree with the others, seems like it's time to at least look at other troops in the area. Goodluck to you and your son. SA

Ed, You said, "If one doesn't repent from one's sins then one will spend eternity in hell." Do you imply that anyone that doesn't believe this or accept this as fact should not be in scouting? SA

One other thing. I believe Requirement 2, listed earlier is looking for more than just meeting the membership requirements. Meeting the membership requirements will earn Scout. The Scout agrees to do his best to live up to the Scout Oath and Law. The Eagle Candidate and Candidates for other ranks should be able to show evidence of their efforts to do. SA

BW, Thanks for the explanation. If I understand things correctly, the Religious Reference is just that. Someone, anyone, who can attest to the scout's efforts to do his duty to God, (and respect the beliefs of others or others who have different beliefs, but that's the other thread.) not necessarily a Pastor, Rabbi, Minister or other Religious Leader, although I can see how those would be prefered. SA

FScouter suggests "If he is going to be a stinker about this, I'd challenge him to point to the specific pages in the Scout Handbook that your boy needs to work on to meet the listed requirements. And challenge him to point to the pages that say the Scoutmaster conference is a subjective test that must be passed. " I agree 100%, doing so a politely as possible. But, I think if you could get your son to make this challenge, it would demonstrate the "assertiveness" your SM is looking for. That might be all he's looking for. It could start out something like, " Excuse me Mr. SM, do you mind if I ask you a question?" This may be a learning opportunity for your son. He has fulfilled the requirements. He knows he is right. An authority figure is wrong. This will happen in life. He can choose to step forward and assert his right to his rank advancement, have Mom and Dad come to the rescue again or forego the rank advancement. And Goodkidsmom, I understand. My older son(17) making a bank transaction yesterday, called his mom on the cell phone to ask how to fill out a form instead of asking a teller!(He's one step away from Blackbelt himself.) My younger son, our scout, probably would have shouted out in the lobby, "Does anyone know how to fill this thing out?" Again, Best of Luck. SA

Hunt, You asked "What exactly is the value that is being embodied? " I'm going to take a stab here, I think the value the BSA is promoting here in the 12th point is Faith and Reverence towards that Faith. Faith in a power or something that can't be proven scientifically. Not just the logic of good over bad or ethical behavior versus unethical. As I understand the BSA's concept of reverence, reverence could refer to God or however the individual perceives God. I believe one council indicated they would accept Faith in Mother Nature. It could even be the "Force", as in "Mmay the Force be with you." But, the difference between all of these and atheism as I understand it, is the element of Faith or Belief, without proof. Just my thought. SA

Goodkidsmom, Glad to hear your son is as active as he is. I guess I was projecting the image of the two scouts I've described onto your son based on your intial post. My appologies. I'm curious about what the SM would consider as "more assertiveness" ? Not that I believe it's a requirement. As far as I'm concerned it sounds like your son has met the requirements to advance, except the BOR that he has tried to schedule. Good luck. SA

Goodkidsmom, I'm sure your son is a good kid. I would probably like him and have a couple of scouts that might be a lot like him. They are very eager to earn merit badges, attend all the meetings, quickly sign up for merit badge universities, attend parades etc. They are advancing relatively quickly. They excel at the more academic merit badges have earned quite a few. They have achieved the rank of Star and are working their way towards Life. One wanted a SM review and BOR for Life, and I had to remind him that there was a time requirement for participation between the Star and Life Ranks and he would have to wait until the fall. They don't sign up for campouts, unless they are basic car camping and then most of the time when their dads can attend. They don't hike, canoe or sign up for any of the more rigorous physical activities. To be frank, I like these kids. They are courtious, kind, and obedient. For their own sake I would like to see them be more active. One is fairly overwieght and even his dad says, gets little or no physical activity. The other, while not overwieght, is... well not very athletic to say the least. Both scouts will likely earn Life next year. But unless they become more physically active I'm not sure they'll get to Eagle. Neither has started to work on Personal Fitness MB, both have a long way to go to get to the required number of nights for Camping MB and frankly right now, I'm not sure either could do the Bicycling, Hiking or Swimming MBs, not to mention having the assertiveness needed to lead an Eagle project. I am the advancement chair and not their scoutmaster, but would like to see both scouts be more well rounded in their approach to life, for their own sake. Our SM would not do what your SM has done though. If the boys have met the requirements they have earned the ranks. I think the advice provided by Mike F and FScouter are right on the mark for now. However, a scout also promises to "keep myself physically strong..." It sounds to me that while lacking tact, the SM is trying to get your son to challenge himself in other ways. This is no different than a SM trying to encourage a very physically active scout that has trouble with having the discipline to work through some of the more academic aspects of scouting. It sounds to me like the SM is trying to help. Given some information from your Doctor or other professional, maybe he can do a better job. I think if you approach him in the right way, he can help your son develop other aspects of his life. If your son has aspirations towards Eagle, he will need not only strong academic performance, but physical skills, and assertivness to be able to develop, lead and carryout his Eagle project and some of the more physically demanding MBs. I sincerely wish you and your son the best of luck. SA

WcdD.., Congradulations on being an Eagle. As a fellow Eagle I can tell you from experience that being an Eagle gets you a nice patch and a medal. All the other things, college acceptance, job prospects, interviews etc. come from the qualities that you have that enabled you to earn your Eagle rank, not the rank itself. Some of those qualities include persistance and determination. All I can tell you is to keep trying. You will get a job and an opportunity. Learn from every rejection. If possible, go back to a prospective employer and ask why you were not considered. Ask them to be honest so you can learn and improve. Also, another observation I have had with some younger folks looking for employment is many seem to feel they don't need to start at the bottom. They seem to think they should be given a chance at a mid or upper level job even if they lack experience. Lower level jobs were for other people not them. Well, you didn't start out on the trail to Eagle at Star did you? Take a job, any job, to get started. You get work experience, learn to work with others, demonstrate a history of job responsibility and when ready move on to a better job. It is difficult providing suggestions to someone we know so little about. You may want to discuss the issue with an adult that you know welll and trust. Good luck, and keep at it. Something will turn up. SA