scoutingagain

Ed, You may have a point. I agree, I believe there is an element of selective prosecution or enforcement in some of these cases. Unfortunately that does not change the Constitutional and legal basis on which these cases are decided. I think the BSA needs to do a better job of choosing when these cases should be defended rather than wasting money on legal fees when the issues seem pretty clear. Remember this is the same Contitution and Court system that decided the BSA, as a private organization, has a right to set it's own membership standards. What we don't have a right to, is the expectation that the Government should then provide support to us as a private organization beyond that available to others of similar status. Remember a Scout pays his own way. SA

For yuks I did a quick search to see if I could find any cases where the ACLU supported the BSA. I confess I didn't find any. I did find the following summary of supreme court cases brought by the ACLU. 1938 Lovell v. Griffin The Court held, in this case involving Jehovah's Witnesses, that a local ordinance in Georgia prohibiting the distribution of "literature of any kind" without a City Manager's permit, violated the First Amendment. 1939 Hague v. CIO An important First Amendment case in which the Court recognized a broad freedom to assemble in public forums, such as "streets and parks," by invalidating the repressive actions of Jersey City's anti-union Mayor, "Boss" Hague. 1944 Smith v. Allwright An early civil rights victory that invalidated, under the Fifteenth Amendment, the intentional exclusion of African Americans from Texas' "white primary" on the ground that primaries are central to the electoral process even though the Democratic Party is a private organization. 1948 Shelley v. Kraemer An important civil rights decision that invalidated restrictive covenants -- contractual agreements between white homeowners in a residential area barring the sale of houses to black people. 1954 Brown v. Board of Education In perhaps the most far-reaching decision of this century, the Court declared racially segregated schools unconstitutional and overruled the "separate but equal" doctrine announced in its infamous 1896 decision in Plessy v. Ferguson. 1965 Griswold v. Connecticut Among the 20th century's most influential decisions. It invalidated a Connecticut law forbidding the use of contraceptives on the ground that a right of "marital privacy," though not specifically guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, is protected by "several fundamental constitutional guarantees." 1971 Reed v. Reed A breakthrough women's rights decision that struck down a state law giving automatic preference to men over women as administrators of decedents' estates. For the first time, the Court ruled that sex-based -- like race-based -- classifactions violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. 1978 Smith v. Collin The peculiar facts of this, one of the ACLU's most controversial First Amendment lawsuits ever, attracted enormous attention: American Nazis wanted to march through a Chicago suburb, Skokie, where many Holocaust survivors lived. The ACLU's challenge to the village's ban on the march was ultimately upheld. Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks (06/03/2004) RICHMOND, VA -- Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, Falmouth Waterside Park Manager Brian Robinson has agreed not to prohibit baptisms in Stafford County, the ACLU announced today. Which of the above cases should the ACLU not have taken? Should we not allow African Americans the right to vote? What about women? Perhaps the government should be allowed to outlaw organized labor? Perhaps we should allow states to pass laws that prevent the use of contraceptives? Or maybe we shouldn't allow Christians access to public lands? All cases the ACLU has brought to protect civil rights. The ACLU primarily takes on cases that protect civil rights. I agree with OGE, it's not the ACLU that's the issue, they simply ask the questions, the COURTS decide the cases based on their interpretation of the CONSTITUTION and LAW. The issue of preferential treatment of the BSA has been taken up by several courts in many jurisdictions. The problem seems to me is not the Judges, they all seem to agree on their interpretation of the Constitution and the Law. It's not like it's one or two activist Judges. So the problem is that darned Constitution that protects the rights of those in the minority. I guess we'll need to change that. What changes should be made in the Constitution to allow the Government to support organizations that practice lawful religious discrimination? Be careful what you wish for. You may get it. SA

CK, Check the Camping & High Adventure threads. Gettysburg has been discussed extensively in that section. We did a Troop trip in August, 2 years ago. It was a four day trip and our itinerary that allowed us to complete the Historic Trails award was something like: Day 1 - Travel 8 hrs, arrive 2-3pm. Set up camp & go to last show of Electric Map and Visitor Center. Dinner, Evening walk/hike through downtown Gettysburg. Day 2 - 9 Mile Hike, Swim & Shower at YWCA in Evening IPhysically this was the toughest day, it was 90+ degrees and we all felt it at the end of the day. Amazing how the kids perked up in the pool though. Most of the adults relaxed in the hugh Hot Tub Spa they had at the Y.) Day 3 - The Shorter Hike(Johnie Reb Trail?), CycleRama(sp?) in the morning, Eisenhower Farm in the afternoon. Evening was an optional Ghost walk through town. (Don't know what the occaision was, but we were also treated to an awesome fireworks display that went off almost directly over MacMillan Woods that night.) Day 4 - Travel home to Massachusetts. We did this with a group of about 22. As you can see it is busy, but can be done. Good luck, this trip was considered one of the best outings we had done upto that point and all that went had a great time. SA

I've followed this thread for a while and agree with Acco, Hunt and NJ. The issue seems quite straight foward to me. A private group, which practices lawful discrimnation against certain segments of society should not expect to recieve preferential treatment from the government which is expected to represent and protect the rights of all in society. I'm not against the BSA, and fully support the concept that it is a private organization with the right to determine it's own membership criteria, although I may not entirely agree with it. But as a private organization we should be prepared to pay our own way and not ask for favors from the rest of society as represented by our government whether it be the military, school districts or other agencies that are not available to other private organizations. It seems like the ruling will have little effect on the lives of individual scouts. Units will still be sponsored by non-governmental organizations and will enjoy the same rights of access to military facilities or public lands that any other private group has. It's Me asks, "Why is a youth group such as the BSA such a target for Gay and atheists groups?" Well, it might have something to do with the fact that the BSA has stated homosexuals lack the moral character to be leaders and practices lawful discrimination against both groups. I could be wrong though. Having said the above, it has seemed to me at times there has been selective enforcement against or prosecution of the BSA. SA

As a scout and family camping I spent many nights in the Jersey Pine Baron and Wharton State Forest. It is an unsual ecology. The closest thing we have in New England is parts of the Cape. I still make it back to the Garden State once in a while, either travelling for business or to visit relatives. My family knows, I always que up "Born to Run", the unofficial state song, as we cross the border in NY and head south on the Garden State Parkway... Turn up the volume... "In the day we sweat it out in the streets of a runaway American dream At night we ride through mansions of glory in suicide machines Sprung from cages out on highway 9, Chrome wheeled, fuel injected and steppin' out over the line Baby this town rips the bones from your back It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap We gotta get out while we're young 'Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run Wendy let me in I wanna be your friend I want to guard your dreams and visions Just wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims and strap your hands across my engines Together we could break this trap We'll run till we drop, baby we'll never go back Will you walk with me out on the wire 'Cause baby I'm just a scared and lonely rider But I gotta find out how it feels I want to know if love is wild girl I want to know if love is real Beyond the Palace hemi-powered drones scream down the boulevard The girls comb their hair in rearview mirrors And the boys try to look so hard The amusement park rises bold and stark Kids are huddled on the beach in a mist I wanna die with you Wendy on the streets tonight In an everlasting kiss The highway's jammed with broken heroes on a last chance power drive Everybody's out on the run tonight but there's no place left to hide Together Wendy we'll live with the sadness I'll love you with all the madness in my soul Someday girl I don't know when we're gonna get to that place Where we really want to go and we'll walk in the sun But till then tramps like us baby we were born to run" With respect to The Boss and all the other Jerseyans out there. SA

I'm hesitant to resurect this thread but here goes. I read through it and on the way home thought of what does tolerance mean. From Dictionary.com 8 entries found for tolerance. tolerance ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tlr-ns) n. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others. Leeway for variation from a standard. The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent. The capacity to endure hardship or pain. Medicine. Physiological resistance to a poison. The capacity to absorb a drug continuously or in large doses without adverse effect; diminution in the response to a drug after prolonged use. Acceptance of a tissue graft or transplant without immunological rejection. Unresponsiveness to an antigen that normally produces an immunological reaction. The ability of an organism to resist or survive infection by a parasitic or pathogenic organism. Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. tolerance (tlr-ns) n. Decreased responsiveness to a stimulus, especially over a period of continued exposure. The capacity to absorb a drug continuously or in large doses without adverse effect; diminution in the response to a drug after prolonged use. Physiological resistance to a poison. Acceptance of a tissue graft or transplant without immunological rejection. Unresponsiveness to an antigen that normally produces an immunological reaction. The ability of an organism to resist or survive infection by a parasitic or pathogenic organism. tolerant adj. Source: The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary Copyright 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. Main Entry: tolerance Pronunciation: 'tl(-&)-r&n(t)s Function: noun : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (as a drug) or a physiological insult with repeated use or exposure

With all due respect to Mr. White, can someone point to documentation that says that youth must join a unit within the geographic boundries of the district that they live or go to school in? As far as I'm concerned, if you can deliver a quality program and want to introduce it to boys that can benefit from it, regardless of where they wish to travel from, I agree with those that say go for it. However, you might want to do some research on units that do serve the area they live in and let the boys know that in addition to your unit, they can look into joining those units that may be closer to home. May the unit that is best able to serve the individual youth member, get the youth to join. (Note: not "win", it's not a contest.) Just my 2 cents. SA

Hmm, "Portable" water. I never would have thought of that. Does that mean I don't need a water bottle? Sorry, couldn't resist again. SA

Guess that leaves the Easy Bake Ovens out too. Couldn't resist either. SA

Well I've been out of town for a few days and havn't had time to review this thread for a while. Spent a few days in W. Virginia & Western PA. Jeepers we live in a beautiful country. Back to politics as this thread seems have evolved to. My take on George W. is that he's not as conservative as he's been made out to be. He's as much a pandering politician as any other candidate. He needed the conservative religious vote to win and that's the way the Republicans played the election. I give them credit, it worked. However, now that he is in his second term and doesn't have to worry as much about re-election he will be free to pursue his own agenda rather than one that will get him re-elected. I still think he will promote business friendly and upper-income tax policies, try to reduce environmental regulations that his business friends tell him hinder US competitiveness, promote liberal immigration laws so his business buddies can have access to cheap labor. Foreign policy wise his proposed approach wasn't all that much different than Kerry's but I don't think he'll be as successful as Kerry might have been. (Face it, no one's going to step into the mess in Iraq to help.) We're stuck with this Iraq mess and I think he will do his best to get us out of there and even George W. realizes we're in no shape to take on much else until the Iraq situation stablizes. Finally on the social front, here's some things I don't think he'll do. He won't appoint Judges that will over turn Roe v. Wade. His mother would be very upset with him. He won't pursue a constitutional amendment to define marriage. He has said the State's already have this authority. We'll just have to wait and see. My reference to Hillary running was not meant to slight her personally. I think she is a very intelligent and ambitious women and see nothing wrong with that. It's just I don't think she would have a prayer of winning. There's some doubt she'll be able to keep her seat in Congress when she comes up for re-election, depending on who runs against her. Maybe Rudi would consider being a Senator? Just some of my ramblings. SA

Well if that doesn't qualify for an attaboy from one scouter to another, I don't know what does. Way to go Foto. SA

"So, in 06 we start with a bunch of hopefuls from both sides of the aisle and we start to winnow it down to two opponets who will most likely be shaped by the choices of new hampshire and Iowa. I wonder if we can scheule all the primaries on the same day, any thoughts? " I guess I agree that I would like to see more folks involved in the primary process than just those that vote early. I could see a series of regional primaries. As far as '08 goes. Good question. Some of my immediate thoughts after the election were: The Democratic Party leadership really are out of touch with much of the American midwest and were suprised by the turn out of the conservative vote in Ohio and Florida. (So was I) I read that there were over 9 million first time voters over the age of 40 in this election. Many, including myself, assumed those folks were already voting. The Republicans run better campaigns, hands down. The Massachusetts Supreme Court may have lost Kerry the election by energizing just enough of the conservatives that hadn't voted before to get out and vote for the candidate they believed would support their values. I wonder who the Republicans will begin grooming for President in '08. I think they have a number of good potential candidates in John McCain, Rudi Guliani, or Mitt Romney, however none of those seem to be groomable the way President Bush was although all (even McCain) went out to their way not to do anything that would annoy the Republican Party leadership. The Democrats don't even seem to have anyone that could potentially win available. Hillary? Give me a break. Kerry again? Highly doubtful. With the near sweep of Republican candidates in the south, the Dems don't even have much to offer in the form of a southern Democrat. I think they're in real trouble. My hope is that George Bush, in a second term, will be the compasionate conservative I voted for in '00 and begin to heal the divisions within the country. The Republicans have their shot. I can't recall in my lifetime when one political party held so much power. SA

OGE, Your absolutely right. Lo and behold it was obvious the scouts had picked the organizational skills to pull off an outing. And yes, we need to channel those skills to a more scoutlike activity. SA Sorry to interupt the tweaking/nontweaking discussion. I havn't had time to express my thoughts on the discussion at length, but in following this thread and the others, there seems to be much more common ground among the participants than I think they realize. It has been interesting to follow though. SA

I'm not sure it this little story fits here or in Fling1's laser tag thread or threads on paintball but here goes. At one recent PLC meeting ideas were kicked around for outings. Usually the SM or ASM will make suggestions and the PLs will pick one and begin planning and I confess, while the boys do much of the planning we still have more adult involvement than I would like to see. Until...one idea presented by the boys was paintball. Well it was explained to them this was against the G2SS and they couldn't do it as a Troop outing. They asked, well why can't they do it as just a bunch of friends. They were told they can do what they want, but couldn't imply this was a Troop or Scout function of any kind. Well to make a long story shorter, they planned the paintball outing outside Troop meetings or other Scout functions, made arrangements to collect $$, transportation from cooperative parents, arranged for all the forms to be signed and collected, and basically planned and executed the most boy run activity, the boys that happened to be in the Troop I'm associated with, have ever done and had a great time. SA

Well I voted last night at a public school, that does not sponsor one of those discrimanatory scouting units. I don't know how far away folks have to be from the polls here, I do know I had to drive through a guantlet of signs for local politicians as I entered the parking lot. No political signs outside the entrance door, but I did have to run another guantlet of organizations selling stuff for fundraising. The HS band had a raffle going, the Senior Class had a bake sale, another organization was selling coffee, another just begging for $$$. I didn't have to show an ID and I'm not married or related to anyone at the polling place. Well I voted and can live with the outcome. Hey, the Red Sox still won the Series right? They can't do a recall or protest on that can they? Someone told me there's some special rule that may require them to replay Game 4 with the Yankees. SA

I confess this is not a 50 miler comment. It is an adult award recognition comment though. When we went to Gettysburg and and did the historic trails activities we had more than the usual number of adults come along on the trip. A number of them were associated with a Cub Scout Pack because their sons had younger siblings still in Cub Scouts. All the adults that participated were presented with the historic trails award medal. I think some of the adults are prouder of that medal than the scouts. The Cub Scout Leaders proudly wear their medal on their uniform and it has been a great conversation/recruiting piece for us when the Cubs ask, "Gee Mr. W., what's that medal? How'd you get that?"

Dan, Let me make sure I have this straight first. Your son fulfilled his service hours requirement for Life by working on Eagle projects and other service projects. He also held the position of Troop Instructor for twelve months, which meets the Position of Responsibility requirement for the Life rank. In addition to the above, the scoutmaster assigned an additional service project that required a write up, thank you letters, pictures, etc. to receive his Life Rank. Is that correct? If so, I think the question is not whether it worked or not. We know such projects produce confidence and leadership in young men. That's why their expected for projects for the Eagle rank. The question to consider is, is it fair to require this for the rank of Life, when no one else requires it? Just asking. Oh, if my assumptions stated above are wrong, disreguard this post. SA

Nice work. I liked it. SA

1) Yes 2) Yes 3) No 4) Yes 5) Yes (I'd give 15 minutes worth) 6,7,8) Yes, Yes Yes I generally agree with Pack's interpretation regarding fundraising except in 2) the council specifically asked for volunteers and the work did not directly benefit the scout or or his unit. While it is preferable that a scout get prior approval, for the Star and Life ranks I don't feel it's required. Most of our scouts get service hours participating in Eagle projects. The Catholic Church in our town allows scouts to use scout service hours towards confirmation so we reciprocate. SA

Yes TP, we all know the heartwarming story of young GW Bush growing up the poor son of an oil executive and former government official. Making his own way through the failed oil executive trade and becoming a baseball team owner and Governor. It's always heartwarming to see how someone can overcome such humble beginnings and set backs and convince folks he's a regular guy by pretending to mispronounce nuclear and split wood. Can't say I'm a big fan of Mr. Kerry either. He is a Liberal, meaning there's not an organized labor group he doesn't like, hence the support from all those commi union guys. Me, I voted for McCain in the Republican primaries 4 years ago and hopefully will get to vote for either him or possibly, Mitt Romney, our Republican Governor four years from now, assuming we survive another four years of whoever we end up with. Come on over and come for a sail, I'm sure we'd have some fun. I'll even take you by the Kennedy Library where you can see JFK's yacht. If I do get out to MI, I'll give you a buzz as well. SA

TP, To respond to your question regarding a full keel boat. It's substantially heavier and will be more stable in waves than a centerboard boat. It also has a bit more room in the cabin than a compable length centerboard boat. It is slower in light wind though and you certainly would have difficulty trailering it. My offer of a daysail on Mass Bay stands. To stay sort of on topic, I sailed probably over a hundred miles this summer on day sails and used maybe a little more than 6 gallons of gas. Some of the larger motor vessels in the harbor can't even get out of the Marina without using that much fuel. But TP, why I thing President Bush may be in trouble. The last few weeks I've noticed Kerry stickers, not on your typical Cambridge grey haired, ponytailed professors driving Volvos or Saabs, but on pickups driven by ironworkers, carpenters, tunnel workers, etc. Four years ago, even here in Massachusetts, you wouldn't have seen those stickers on a construction worker's vehicle for a democratic presidential candidate. Time will tell. In the mean time I believe the free market will help solve our issues with oil consumption. Oil is over $54/barrel today. Twice what it was a year ago. At that price, conservation measures begin to look more attractive as do alternative energy sources. The great thing about a free market is you don't need Big Brother Government to step in to decide what to conserve or not, consumers will conserve and use efficiently those resources that cost more and move to those resources that cost less. Gee I love capitalism. SA

The issue of large family style tents for Webelos camping was brought up once before, (by me via a possible suggestion) and was rather abruptly dismissed by another poster as a violation of the Webelos tenting rules. i.e. No scout can sleep in a tent with an adult other than a parent or guardian. My question is this. How is a large family style tent with more than one adult and more than one scout different from cabin style camping where all parties sleep on bunks in the same small room, or the scenario on many ship board sleepovers where everyone sleeps in the same cabin, or museum sleepovers where everyone sleeps in the same area. This situation keeps comming up because like it or not, not all scouts have a parent or guardian available to camp with and while they may be assigned to another adult to supervise, this means the scout without a parent or guardian present only has the option to sleep with another scout. In some cases this may mean a young scout may not be comfortable at age 10 or 11 participating in a campout sleeping only with another young scout, when everyone else gets to tent with their parent or guardian. The family style tent seems to me to be reasonable accomodation to this situation, and poses no additional threat to the scouts than do the sleeping arrangements described above, except is does seem to be counter to the wording used in the Webelos Camping requirements. SA

"The problem is do we as a country favor action to inaction? " No disrespect, OGE, but I don't think the issue is action or inaction. I accept in this day and age, and the potential for terrorists to aquire WMD make the concept of pre-emptive war necessary. I agree that we cannot sit back and simply respond to attacks. The question is though, what threshold must be met before we put those who volunteer to protect us in harms way? At what point are we willing to sacrafice our sons, daughters, husbands or wives, fathers & mothers, fellow citizens? I've written and re-written lots of other thoughts but have decided to delete them for now. The question above I think still stands. In an age where we must consider pre-emptive war, what threshold must be met to take such action? And if a war is initiated based on information that turns out to be incorrect, who should be held accountable? Messengers, advisors or decision makers? SA

Well hello sailors! 24' Bahamian Islander with a 7.5 HP Johnson here. Built in '68 and still plying the waters off Boston and Massachusetts Bay. My wife and I have been sailing her as long as we've been together, over 20 years. It's the one place she's second in command. In past years we've sailed from Salem to Martha's Vinyard to Cuttyhunk Isand for 7 - 10 days at a time. Now we mostly daysail with an occaisional overnighter. The boat is a full keel boat and stands up to a heady sea. Just sailed her down the coast a bit to be hauled for the season. Great day on the outside with 3-5' swells, 10 - 15kt winds. Havn't had the scouts out yet other than my son and a friend. We have had a couple of scoutmaster sails though. Anyone gets to Beantown during the summer months, PM me and I'll be happy to take 'em on a daysail in Boston Harbor. The best thing about the price of fuel this year was a noticable drop in the amount of motorboat traffic. See ya on the high seas. SA

Welcome Starwolf, About the only thing I can think of beyond some of the other suggestions would be to invite the Webelos scouts directly. Either have a Den Chief from your troop give the invitation directly to the boys, or ask the Webelos leader if someone from the troop could visit a Webelos meeting to talk about the Troop's activities and invite the boys to some of them. Good Luck, SA