scoutingagain

Just following up on what I believe are some incorrect assumptions regarding the ACLU legal actions that effect scouts. 1. The ACLU legal action is targeted at the government, not the BSA. Unfortunately individual scout units suffer the consequences of the illegal actions of government, either federal or local. 2. There is nothing in the ACLU lawsuits that prevent scout units from meeting in public schools, camping at public parks or having access to government facilities. Also, just curious, For those that feel that the government should be allowed to charter, (i.e. Own and operate) scout units, would you be willing to allow the government to set membership standards for those units? If they are owned and operated by the government, any argument that they are private, and free to set their own membership standards is lost. In fact I could see government chartering of scout units as a way to evetually provide a "local option" on membership in a similar way that Learning for Life has different membership standards than the BSA does. As I said, be careful what you wish for? SA

Is a "make over" the same as "tweaking" ? I'll confess that the Troop I serve has stalled in it's progress towards being a better boy lead troop. Last year we had a great SPL and made some really good progress. This year the SPL is not quite as strong or as organized as last year's and it's kind of taken a while for that realization to set in. It was easy last year, with such a great SPL. The adult leaders will have to start coaching our new SPL a little more, trying to be carefull not to start doing things he should be doing. It won't be easy because some of the newer adults see some of the disorganization and are ready to jump in. SA

Well if he's out there, I can say I've learned as much about the workings of the BSA program from his posts as I have from any other "official" document I've read or training I've taken. I hope he has a great Christmas and returns next year. SA

Noticed this tidbit in mmhardy's note, "the group's Biennial Conference in July." I still think the DOD should offer to host a large scale camping event for the ACLU for their meeting. The BSA could solicit local units to offer to cook for them. SA

CO - Methodist Church (Ironically I think all the scouts in the troop are Catholic.) They provide a decent place to meet, but other than that have no direct involvement with the troop. I've never met the Pastor, although our CC has indicated she(the Pastor), has asked about the Troop and whether or not we were happy and were getting everything we needed from them. We don't ask for much, other than a place to meet. We usually do at least one annual service project for the Church. I'd rate them a 7, maybe an 8. COR, - Decent guy, former Scoutmaster. Lead the Troop for several years as a Boy Lead into the Ground Troop and we're still recovering. He stops by maybe, twice a year and an occasional Court of Honor. I'd give him an 8 as well. SA

Great story! It might help the ACLU's public image if they were to donate to the scouts as one private civic minded organization composed of adults, to another, whose members are children. While they may be winning in court, they are losing the battle of public opinion. I'm glad the scouts earned some $$$ and hope they use it to create some great opportunities for themselves and their community. Sounds like they had quite a day! SA

I got started in scouting as a Cub Scout in New Jersey in the mid-sixties. I remember many of the typical Cub Scout activities we did as a den, at a the Den Mom's house down the street. One of the ealiest activities I can recall is a trip to see the then, brand new New York Jets, formerly the Titans of the fledgling American Football League. The stands were half full, more typical of a current American Professional Soccer Game. One of my most vivid early scout memories is my first campout as a tenderfoot scout. We were in mixed age patrols then and I thought it was really cool to be camping with the older scouts. My patrol leader told me I was really lucky to be in the Flaming Arrows because we were the best patrol in the troop. The campout was in late September, temperatures were in the low forties. There was a river nearby with a large rope swing. It had to swing our 50 - 60 feet over the river. Boys being boys, several thought it would be cool to ride the rope swing out across the river and then back. There was no intention to go in the river. About half the kids made the ride without falling in, the other half that tried ended up soaking wet, shivering cold after a good 15 ft drop into the river. Don't ask me where the adults were as this was going on, as I have no idea. As the new kid and somewhat shy, I was content to stand back and watch. Then one of the other scouts in my patrol mentioned that everyone in the patrol had taken a turn except me. With all eyes on me I kind of gulped and said OK I'd give it a try. The older scouts lifted me up and pulled back the rope so I had one heck of a ride. It seemed like forever, swooping down over the water, up into the air and then down again, to be safely caught by my patrol leader on the bank of the river. I had made it and didn't get wet. My PL, who was in high school and who I figured had to be the coolest kid in town told me it was neat that I tried the swing because we were the only patrol that had all it's members give it a try. It was great to be a Flaming Arrow! Now of course if I were to find the scouts in the troop I now serve engaged in such hijinks, with no safe swim plan, or means of rescue, I read them the riot act, turn my back and smile. Thanks for letting me dig up a great memory. SA

On our last outing we had a great time playing touch football. Adults against the Scouts. The Adults won of course, (but not by much!) and we all paid for it for the next three days. I'm reminded of the line by Mr. T in one of the Rocky movies. " I predict pain." The scouts wanted a rematch the next day, but most of the adults could barely walk. I'm with those that feel your CC has gone a little to far. He/She needs a polite correction. Just for information, we play a modified version of touch football. The main modification is there is no limit on the number of forward passes a team can make. Play stops when the player with the ball is touched or the ball touches the ground. The unlimited forward passes allows everyone on the team to be a potential reciever or quarterback on any play and makes for a wide open, razzle dazzle style game and keeps everyone involved. Give it a try. Good Luck. SA

Proud Eagle, No I'm not in favor of the BSA or GSUSA being denied access to government facilities and that is not the issue that the ACLU has threatened to sue over. The BSA, GSUSA or any other youth group has every right to expect the same access to government facilities offered to any other private youth organization. As an independant conservative I see no need for the government to be in the business of sponsoring private organizations, be it BSA units or others. Particularly those that wish to set their own membership standards. In fact, as I understand it, Exploring units that are sponsored by government organizations under the Learning for Life programs, are not allowed to have the same membership requirements as those BSA units lawfully sponsored by private organizations. Those that wish to maintain the BSA's right to set it's own membership standards should be very careful about encouraging government sponsorship of BSA units. Hunt's point regarding the difference between sponsorship and access is well taken. SA

This is a wonderful bill for the Boy and Girls Scouts. But I'm wondering what other private organizations are worthy of government sponsorship. I'm thinking 4H, Boys and Girls Clubs, Junior Achievement, Religious Youth Groups, Little League, Pop Warner Football, all other youth sports programs, drum and bugle corps, private dance and youth theater groups, heck there must be alot more. Why stop at private youth groups. What about adult civic and professional associations, the Kiwanis Club, Knights of Columbus, the American Medical Society, The Association of Trial Lawyers, the American Society of Safety Engineers, the American Society of all the other engineers, nurses, teachers, firefighters, police officers, on down the line. We can keep going put your thinking caps on. What other private organizations should the Federal Government Sponsor? What about ExxonMobil, General Motors, Dupont, heck the Fortune 500. I can think of nothing more un-American. Warning: the above three paragraphs are meant as sarcasm. As an Eagle Scout and with a son in scouting, I believe the BSA has a lot to offer. I support the BSA's right to set it's own membership policies. As an independant conservative I don't want the government involved in areas it doesn't need to be. I'm suprised at the number of scouters argueing for illegal, unconstitutional sponsorship of private scout units. I believe the BSA and it's units do not need unconstitutional government sponsorship and everything I've read seems to bears this out. I see a lot of conservatives that don't want government involvement in private affairs except when it seems to specifically benefit them or regulate others lives to be in more conformance with their own religious beliefs. In my mind these conservatives, are just another group of special interests looking for government handouts and favors, no better than tax and spend Democrats or tax cut and spend more Republicans. Scouts are better than this. SA

We(the troop I serve) used to give the Webelos a handbook a crossover but frankly a good percentage never showed up to troop meetings, so we now give them a handbook when they show up and register in the fall. A good item to give instead of a knife might be one of those multi-use signal/survival whistles. The ones with a compass, whistle, matchholder, etc. My 2 cents. SA

Just wanted to let folks know that others are just soaking in the wisdom being shown in this discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas. Many hit home with my experiences and help me keep things in perspective. SA

In concept, the idea has merit. In practice I think it would be challenging to administer to say the least. I tend to agree with those that say let's look at some of the tools we have, that may be broken or we are not using as well as we could. I think the idea of raising the expectations and documentation requirements to achieve Quality Unit status might be the way to go. Interesting idea though. SA

Talk about ironic.

I have no objection to the DOD supporting the National Jamboree, not because I think the BSA deserves or needs a special service, but because is serves as a legitimate training and exercise opportunity for the military to set up and support a large scale encampment for thousands of personnel and the associated logistics needed to do this. To be fair though, the DOD should offer this service to any organization that wants to hold a periodic large scale encampment. Perhaps the ACLU would like to hold one of it's National meetings as an outdoor camping event? SA

I think your thinking of the Baden Powell Scouts. (BPS) I was able to find these site for Canada and the UK but couldn't find one for the US. www.bpscouts.ca www.badenpowellscouts.org.uk SA

Don't know for sure. I would be involved with my sons in some way. I'm involved with the HS Band parents group and the HS Theatre support group although not as visibly or at the same level as in scouts. I might consider getting involved with a youth sailing group. There's one in the next town. And I'd probably not spend as much time on this forum. SA Hey, have a good Thanksgiving all, regardless of race, creed, lack of creed, position in scouting, tweaker or non-tweaker. Have a great holiday and stay safe. SA

From NWScouter " received an email from the BSA forwarded to me by my district commissioner. In it says two things 1. There are only about 400 BSA units nationwide that are sponsored by government agencies and 2. They have had and continue to instruct BSA professionals to find other chartered partners for those units. The national leadership realizes that it is not in the best interests of the BSA to have government entities to charter units. The time, money and effort to fight a losing battle and the requirements that would be made to keep them are not worth it. " Thanks for posting this. This is good news. This is exactly what the BSA should be doing, demonstrating leadership, support and guidance for those units. These units can work towards an orderly transition to a legally acceptable charter and get back to serving their youth members and not worry about the ACLU or whether or not they're in violation of the Constitution. And the Government can go back to business of education and defending our country and not be in the business of providing direct support and operation of a private organization that has the resources to run itself without government interference or involvement. And the ACLU can take on cases that will make more of a difference and Merlyn will have nothing to say on this forum and all these threads on the ACLU and civil liberties will come to an end.( Sure) SA

"PS: Does anyone else see the irony in an avowed atheist opining as to the duties and responsibilities of a military chaplain?" Yes, Fred it is ironic isn't it. Does anyone else see the irony of so many so called conservative scouters argueing for a branch of the government to be directly involved in the sponsorship and operation of a private youth organization? A private organization that wants to be free to set it's own membership standards without interference from the government? SA

As long as the course is open to the public(the community) and not restricted to just scouts, I don't see anything wrong with it. SA

I don't know about a national "hero" but I think the idea of a national spokesperson has merit. Someone who could put a respected and recognizable face on scouting and promote scouting. There are several good candidates on the list of Famous Eagle Scouts. I can think of several Astronauts that would do well, as well as some of the sports figures listed. I would stay away from anyone that is overtly political, i.e. Mike Dukakis or Donald Rumsfeld. SA

I don't know how scouts could afford a major pro sporting event. Around here the only sports that might be affordable would be baseball, and it is virtually impossible to get tickets. I think the line for next year has already start outside Fenway. The other sport that would be viable would be Major leage soccer. I have attended those games and they are very family friendly. Personally I find college games more enjoyable. Very affordable, crouds are controlled but enthusiastic, mainly because most of the schools around here have stopped selling beer at sporting events. SA

Thanks OGE. We have a Webelos den comming to visit our unit in a couple of months. This is a great reminder for all our scouts. SA

Whitewater asked, "So the Boy Scouts accomodate most faiths with the exception of atheism. Rather than tear them down for that why not just make sure that alternative organizations like Scouting For All receive a fair shake when it comes to government sponsorship." So with the Federal Government running record deficits, you want to open up another Government entitlement program to sponsor private youth organizations? Sounds like a very liberal idea to me. Whatever happend to the idea that a Scout pays his own way? Folks think about this, The same Constitution that prevents the Government from providing direct sponsorship of private groups that lawfully discriminate, also assures the right of the BSA to set it's own membership standards. Absent that protection, there are State, County and local governments that could conceivably enact legislation requiring BSA units to admit Gays and Atheists or outlaw their existence, and some probably would. SA

We charge $35.00 per scout. Adults are not charged. Outings are paid for at the time of the outing. A typical weekend campout may cost $5 - $20 depending on the activities planned, plus a food item for the patrol. Equipment is paid for with Troop funds that are generated through Wreath and Garland sales. SA