scoutingagain

I stumbled on this site looking for backpacking trips in southern New England. They describe a number of trails, itineraries some include maps. Sorry, don't know how to insert as a link. You'll have to copy and paste it into the address window of your browser. We hope to try one of these in the spring as a shake down for High Knoll. SA http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/gmfl/green_mountain/recreation_management/backpacking/index.htm

It's Me said, "And once the ACLU wins the direct funding they will argue that the BSA cannot use public lands, parks or roads because the said use of these properties is the establishment of religion. " Very doubtful. The ACLU is smart enough to know they would lose so I don't believe they would make the argument. In fact the ACLU has already successfully represented private religious organizations and their right to access public lands and parks. SA

All inquiries regarding why BSA units are not allowed to be sponsored by any agency of the government, schools, DOD, or whatever, should be refered to the last two posts by NJ and OGE. If folks don't get it after reading those two posts, well... I don't believe it can be explained any better. SA

Whitewater, With all due respect, the difference is anyone who wishes to play chess can join the chess club. If there were a religious basis for membership of the chess club, it too would be in violation of the 1st amendment. Can anyone who wishes to participate in scouting join a Pack or a Scout Troop? Obviously no and I'm not saying they should. But it is just as obvious, at least to me, that if we are going to have a private organization that is open only to those that meet the membership criteria we specifiy, we should not expect support in the form of direct sponsorship from the government that is supposed to protect the interests of all its citizens, even those that choose not to live by all the elements of the scout oath and law as currently interpreted by the BSA. SA SA

Good discussion and thanks for the advice. Keeping my fingers crossed that the scout will pass the swim test next month and the issue is moot. SA

I understand the issues related to actual advancement to First Class and the requirements to participate in canoeing or whitewater activities. They make sense to me. However is there any consideration for those scouts that wish to participate in High Adventure camps that do not involve water activities, but require a scout to achieve the First Class rank prior to participation? I don't know that I'm in that situation yet, but I have a scout that struggled through the second class swimming requirements last summer and has signed up for a High Adventure activity this summer that requires the First Class rank. He has completed most of the other requirements and we will have a swim night sometime next month where he will try the First Class, BSA Swimmer test. I don't know that he will be able to do this. He is an otherwise good camper and has good outdoor skills. I believe he could do the High Adventure activity, as it involves backpacking and camping, but no water activities. Do we hold him back from other High Adventure activities? SA

"On a personal level, it was on my 25th birthday that I realized that life might be a more long-term thing than I had thought. " I believe it was Neil Young that wrote..."24 and there's so much more." SA

scoutscooter, I am very sorry for your experience. I would hope this troop represents a small minority of troops. In our area, I am not aware of a single troop in our District that discourages women from participating. There are women Scoutmasters, Asst. Scoutmasters, Committee Members and parents that choose to camp. Personally I think it is unfortunate that National allows this type of discrimination to continue, but Charter Organizations can choose to not allow women to be leaders if they want to. They cannot keep parents from attending functions. Your SM seems to be aware of the rules and knows how to use them to his advantage, however in doing so he seems to have negated the Boy run aspects of the trip. I agree with the others, but I would double check with your Chartering organization to see if the policy is really that of the Chartering organiztion and not a personal policy of the Scoutmaster. Just another suggestion, if you don't want to camp, ask if you can come for the day on Saturday and leave after supper. However, I personally would be looking for another troop. From my experience over the last several years the situation you describe is essentially non-existent in our area. I'm sorry your initial scouting experience was not as postivie as it should have been. SA

OK nldscout, I'll play along and respond. What violations did he commit? Assuming this was a scout outing (it was on a scout camp) he violated the 2 deep leadership requirement for all outings. Did the boys sleep in different rooms than the DAD? Don't know. Ironically at our council camp the winter cabins are all one room cabins and Dads(multiple,never just one) routinely sleep in the same room as scouts, we have even had some Moms join us. Just wondering how many other council camps have one room cabins. Was he one on one with the boys? Not when Eamonn apparently observed him, but like I said, a whole weekend with the boys provides many more opportunities for an adult to be alone with a scout than just a few hours. Were the boys Boy Scouts? Don't know, but since they were on a scout camp, I assume so. The point I am making is that once an adult finds himself alone with a youth, his(or her) personal and professional reputation and possibly a livelihood is competely in the hands of the youth. All the youth has to do is make an accusation or even an insinuation to the right (or wrong) person. The youth or prosecutor doesn't have to prove a thing. It becomes a he said he said situation and while you may get a day in court and the accusation cannot be proven, society at large will assume your guilty. In the Catholic Church scandal, in addition to those Priests that have been criminally convicted, there have been several others that have been aquitted, and in my opinion, based on what I've read about some of the cases, falsely accused. Yes, they have been aquitted by they have also had to leave their long time parishes because of community concerns. There have also been an number of teachers that have found themselves in the same situation, of being falsely accused and having to resign their position and moving out of the area bacause they end up being harrased within the community. Suppose, in Semper's Case, he or another adult comes across Charlie in the youth shower. For whatever reason they are not satisfied with the response of the camp director and feel they should report the situation to the DE or even law enforcment. Then rumors start that Charlie, a long time staff member at the local Boy Scout camp, is being investigated for the abuse of scouts at the camp. Not only do rumors start, but the local paper asks the local police to comment, and they say they can't comment on an ongoing investigation. The Camp Director is quoted as saying he's been aware of the situation for years. Out of the thousands of youth Charlie has served over the years a couple of young men in their 20's come forward and file civil lawsuits against Charlie, the Council, the BSA, and the Camp Director seeking several hundred thousand dollars in damages. (I mean no one would ever file a lawsuit seeking a lot of money unless they were really harmed right? That never happens) Charlie is never charged and the lawsuits are successfully defended. However, Charlie is forced to resign his position at the camp and because of the publicity is forced to move. This scenario is not as far fetched as it seems. I've witnessed it, and have read of several others, just in our local paper over the last few years. Now, I have no reason to believe any youth member of the unit I serve would make a false accusation, however I'm going to do my best to fully comply with the G2SS or YP Guidelines to not put myself and my family in a situation to find out. Those that think some of the YP guidelines are silly, (and I'm not directing that comment to members of the forum, more towards the twit decribed in Eamonns intial post), should consider the risks they are taking. In their hearts, I'm sure they know they would never do anything to a youth member, so they feel it's OK. I'm saying it's not just about the youth. SA

I understand there is a difference between two deep leadership and no one-on-one contact. However I believe there is a practicle difference say, between a meeting with new scouts, a troop guide and an adult leader in a separate room in a meeting hall for an hour while the rest of a troop meets elsewhere in the same building versus an adult taking a group of boys camping by himself for a weekend. To me an adult that wants to take boys camping by himself in knowing violation of BSA policy is a hugh red flag and the seriousness of the violation needs to be imparted to the individual involved. It's not just an oops, all of a sudden your alone with a scout around a campfire because everyone else went to bed or a scout's ride doesn't show up and now either he rides with you or he doesn't get home. As noted in earlier responses, we all have the potential to find ourselves in situations where we end up one-on-one with a scout inadvertantly. We need to be mindfull and avoid these situations, but sometimes we still find ourselves in such a situation. Acco, in my opinion your actions did not violate the G2SS or YP requirements, unless you got to the campsite and only one scout was awake and you were alone with this scout. Since it's cold, you let him sit in your vehicle with you. Now you find yourself in violation. A disaster ?, no, but a scenario that could be avoided. Acco, you and others here have far more experience than I do and I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching or telling you what you should or shouldn't do. Having sat on that jury and witnessed the apprehension on that man's face during his trial as well as being geographically in the middle of the Catholic Church scandel, I've just grown sensitive to YP issues. SA

Capture the Flag? Hmmm, that starts with "C", rymes with "P" which rymes with "T" and that stands for "trouble".. right here in River City! Why we'd better start a scout troop to save our youth, take them to summer camp, where they can learn to play poker with chips of no nominal value to stay out of trouble.... except poker start with "P" and that rymes with "T"...when will the madness end. SA PS. A poor attempt at humor. Absolutely no offense toward any poster or response is intended.

I tend to agree with some of the others. I don't see anything wrong with playing a card game, hearts, poker or black jack, and keeping score as long as the activity does not interfere with participation in other camp programs. What card game does not include an element of chance or luck? Does keeping score constitute gambling? SA

This was a very tragic situation. More so because it was completely avoidable. It does provide a great lesson to be learned for those organizations (in and out of scouting) that should understand and practice the safety afloat guidelines in the G2SS. From the article is seems like a number of major items were not addressed. This is just so sad. SA

The G2SS and YP Guidelines are not there just to protect scouts, although that is their primary purpose. They also protect adult leaders. I would point out to the individual that yes he violated one of the rules, and that by doing so he opens himself up to potential accusations that he probably does not want to consider. How would he feel if a digruntled youth started spreading stories about what Mr. X had him do on an outing? Or how does he think it looks to other adults that he, a grown adult, wants to take a group of boys into the woods by himself? Ask him if he has enough $$ to hire the same lawyers Micheal Jackson has? I'm not accussing him of anything, but I've seen prosecutors go after adults for child molestation charges on the flimsiest of evidence. (Sat on a jury where we aquitted a nice elderly gentlemen who had clearly been falsley accused by a neighborhood youth.) Maybe they have an honest interest in protecting children or maybe the know such cases are sure to attract press coverage. I would never think of taking a group of boys camping on my own, not just for their sake, but for mine as well. SA

Eamonn, As a father who just went through a similar situation with my older son, I understand your angst. My wife and I vigourously enforced the legal requirements of our state, limiting the time our new driver could drive and who was allowed to ride in his car even though these laws are very poorly enforced in our area.(In Massachusetts 16 year olds may not drive after midnight and are not allowed to have other teens in the car unless there is an adult >21, the only exception is siblings) We did break down and allow him to have a car of his own during his senior year in HS. He was one of the last kids in his class to have a car I think. At that point he was 17 1/2 and had at least a year of driving under his belt. I made a point of having him drive with me whenever we could. Running errands, short family trips, etc. so he would get experience behind the wheel. He earned the $$ for it and pays for the additional insurance required. Having read the article I'm glad we did what we did. I still get a little anxious when he heads out of the driveway, but I now trust him as a reasonably good driver. Next year I get to do it all over again with No. 2 son. SA

Like others have said, I think you'll "sense" if you've run into an Eagle mill or not. During your visit is the emphasis on: The outdoor program, where the troop goes camping, the types of camping trips they go on, personal and leadership development, boy leadership, skills learned, community service, summer camp, etc? Or do they talk about the number of Eagle scouts the troop produces? Merit badges they work on? How fast your Webelos will advance? Just some thoughts. Good luck. SA

Warning, this link is a bit sobering. It is not directly scout related, but I thought I'd share it with this forum as many of us have sons/daughters who have either just gotten a driver's license or will shortly, or there are youth members in that catagory. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=677&e=24&u=/usatoday/20050301/bs_usatoday/deadlyteenautocrashesshowapattern SA

On any given outing, of those items taken in pairs, i.e. socks, gloves, mittens, sneakers, a minimum of at least on item will return as a single. SA

I would go with propane. We get along with propane fine here in New England and that includes some below zero nights in the winter. Butane on the other hand is another issue. In fact our council summer camp does not allow the use of liquid fuel stoves or lanterns because of the safety concerns. The only exception to the above would be if you do a lot of backpacking. The propane cylinders can be heavy and bulky compared to carrying small bottles of liquid fuel. But there should be no problem using propane in cold weather unless your headed to Canada in January or February. SA

What about "Philadelphia" with Tom Hanks? Kidding guys, I'm just kidding. Hmm, a person or group having a positive effect on the community?.... "Blazing Saddles!" SA

VA, Your not going to like this, but my suggestion is to teach knots. There was a young scout in the troop I serve that could barely do knots. He was very discouraged about knots. Sure he managed to remember them sufficiently at the time to make second and first class, but even he admitted he never mastered them. ...Until he was asked to take on the role of Troop Guide. He was forced to learn knots, and help the new scouts learn them. He now knows his knots better than most. If you want to learn something, teach it. Pick at least two of the knots you don't know well and agree to teach them. Then pick two more. No point in teaching something you already know. Work with your Den Leader and I'm sure you can learn the knots well enough to teach them. You asked for advice. Good luck. SA

The site below has a great safety video for those involved with winter camping, the outdoors in winter or near frozen lakes, ponds, etc. Thought it was worth sharing with you all. SA http://www.exn.ca/video/?Video=exn20020325-icewater.asx

The Blue Ridge Mountain area must be popular. Based on some suggestions in this forum, we'll be headed to the High Knoll Trail this summer. SA

I've come to the conclusion VA Ordeal could teach the rest of us something about civil discussion of politics. SA

Back to the intial issue: VAOrdeal, First of all I think it's great that you and your fellow scouts discuss the issue of the war or any other political issue. It shows all of you care about your country and its direction and leadership, regardless of which point of view anyone expresses. That's a much better position to be in than just apathetic. My guess is all of you are much likely to grow up to be voters and community leaders rather than stand on the sidelines of life and for your caring enough to discuss the issues you should be commended. You are also to be commended for not letting political difference get in the way of your friendships. There are many examples of great friends with strongly differing politcal points of view. In today's world there's John McCain and John Kerry. In the 80's there was Tip O'Neil, Speaker of the House, one of those Massachusetts liberals, and President Reagan. (For some reason Massachusetts liberals are always identified as such as opposed to just regular liberals.) These relationships show that great friendships can transend political ideology. I agree with those that suggest a formal debate. The most important thing to learn about democracy is that it tolerates differences of opinion. A debate is a great way to express viewpoints in a civil, structured way. Being able to debate different points of view about contoversial topics without having the discussion degenerate to name calling or just plain rudeness is a sign of maturity. Frankly it's, something most adults are not capable of. If you and your scout buddies can pull off a civil debate on this or anyother issue, you deserve a big Hoorah! Just a few other observations. I agree with Rooster on the issue of whether or not those that have the same political position as their parents can't think for themselves. I don't think it's fair to jump to that conclusion. However, ironically (at least from Rooster's point of view) It appears from what VA Ordeal has described, that those that agree with their parents hold positions that would be considered consistent with that of the Democratic Party or "liberal". OGE, With respect to Rooster's expression of being banned. Since you are in the postion of Participant/Moderator, you have certain authorities that the rest of us don't have. Therefore, it is possible that some could misinterpret your statements as statement of official admonition when you really don't mean them that way. I did not read your responses as such, but I could see how someone could, given your position relative to the rest of the participants. SA