scoutingagain

The issues isn't whether or not the BSA is a religious organization or not or if it's a religion. The issue is the BSA dicriminates based on religious beliefs, or lack thereof. There are private clubs that discriminate based on religion that are neither religious or a religion. They are free to discriminate based on religion, gender or even race as a private organization. But, if they are truely private, they do not look for government funding or support. In addition to the constitutional issues there are many laws and regulations that prohibit the government from dicriminating based on race, gender or religion, and by extension those agencies that recieve government funding.(The posts regarding HUD faith based funding for example.) To maintain funding for the Jamboree I think the BSA needs to be able to demonstrate that the DOD recieves a tangible benefit for it's investment in the form of training, recruiting and or logistical exercise. I'm not sure offering the same opportunity to other youth organizations would be enough. Do those organizations have the same or similar dicriminatory membership policies? I believe anyone can be a member of the Y, I don't know about the Boys or Girls clubs. In terms of scout recruiting, how many mothers might be concerned about letting their son's join and participate in scouting if they thought membership involved military recruitment? (I have nothing against the military, but have read several recent articles about parental concerns regarding military recruitment in schools.) The next question is if we do want the government to offer similar opportunities to other groups, just how much of your tax dollars to you want to spend on DOD training exercises involving youth groups versus other government needs?(I'll admit though the cost of the Jamboree is next to nothing compared to some other government expenditures I would question, but a few million bucks here, a few there and as they say, it begins to add up. A scout is thrifty! A scout pays his own way.) Ultimately if the BSA is going to survive as a truely private organization, and maintain it's right to establish it's own membership criteria, it will need to wean itself from government support. This doesn't mean the BSA should be denied access to government facilities, just that it will have reconcile itself to the same access that other private organizations have. SA

OGE I tend to agree. I have no problem with legal immigrants having access to basic systems they need to live and work here. Drivers licenses, education, health care etc. And as a Nation of immigrants I would not want to see us close our borders to others, but in the current world would like to have greater awarenesss of who's comming and going. When we open those doors to illegal immigrants though it seems to me we enable the process and actually encourage illegal immigration. However, I would not paint this issue as liberal vrs. conservative in the classic sense. Organized labor, a decidedly Democratice group, is very much against illegal immigration and it's our current President that has been among those politicians most sympathetic to the plight of illegal immigrants. Who do you think employ's all those worker's willing to work for less than minimum wage, and afraid to call in government regulators to express concerns about safety or environment issues. Sure, you may find an elite liberal Democrat once and a while with a maid without a green card, but it's private business owners, a group more likely to vote Republican that employs the majority of these people. Right now, what little effort in enforcement there is, is directed at those poor soles that simply want to come to this country and work for more $$ than they can earn at home if they even have an opportunity for a job in their own country. If enforcement was aimed at US employers, illegal immigration would drop dramatically. Which group do you think contributes more to political campaigns? Sorry for being so cynical, but like you OGE this issue sometimes gets me going. SA

About the only vehicle I can think of where there would be sufficient privacy that could create a youth protection issue when there are other scouts in a vehicle is a stretch limo with a privacy divider between the drivers seating area and the passengers area. Therefore I don't think transportation for BSA outings should include the use of stretch limos. They may be OK for rock stars and movie stars but not Boy Scouts. I'm guessing this rule came out of the Beverly Hills Council. SA

Interesting reading Fgoodwin. I'm sure BP based scouting on much of his own personal values which included Christianity. I just don't believe scouting's values are unique to Christianity and that BP was very open to the idea of sharing scouting's values with many different people. Maybe you disagree. Here's what one of our local district folks had to say about scouting and his faith. "''We are going to become part of Americana," said Abdul R. Samma, a member of the Islamic Center who works as senior district director of the Boy Scouts' Annawon Council. He envisions Sharon's Islamic scouts marching in Memorial Day and Independence Day parades. Samma said the scouting and Islamic traditions go nicely together. ''What scouting is all about is what Islam is all about," he said, noting that they share values such as loyalty and trustworthiness." I also know of Jewish Synagogs that sponsor scout troops as part of their youth programs. Do they have it wrong? Does the BSA has it wrong then? Do those that beleive Scouting is a Christian organization feel that these organizations do not share scoutings values because they are not Christian? Should the BSA change it's Declaration of Religious Principles to become even more exclusive? It's certainly within our rights to associate with only those with whom we share religious beliefs. Are scoutings values and moral training uniquely shared by Christianity? SA

This is a very sobering thread. As a H&S professional I can tell you that if a trend begins to emerge based on the number of fatalities there's a big problem. Nationaly we all hear about the fatalities and lost scouts. How many more have been permanently disabled, how more have suffered serious injuries like broken bones. If the average tenure for LDS leaders is 7-9 months, chances are nearly every high adventure outing they go on is their 1st. That's the leaders not the scouts! Taking scouts into the outdoors should mean adventure not taking risks. The best outdoor people I know do amazing things but are among the most risk averse people I know as well. They plan meticulously and train for their outings. This takes a combination of training and experience under the guidance of other experienced leaders. Outdoor adventure should not mean having to accept unreasonable risks. SA

"In your opinion, what exactly is BSA doing that B-P would not have "had in mind"? " I don't mean to answer for anyone, but while not necessarily the BSA, some members of the BSA, including some in this forum, have referred to the BSA as a "Christian" organization. The BSA's own declaration of Religious Principles makes it clear the BSA is not a Christian organization and is open to all that have faith in a higher power, however they percieve it. It is the notion that the BSA and it's values are based on one particular faith that I think BP would have an issue with. SA

"Maybe Scouter-Terry should just get rid of anything that looks remotely like a view that's contrary to what some might consider the "ex cathedra" dictates of BSA and change the name of the website to "www.StepfordScouting.com". " Actually I was thinking the same thing but calling it FOXScouting.com SA

I will confess with pride my son is thrilled with scouts. He just earned Life and I'm pretty sure he'll make it to Eagle, but that will be up to him. He' 15 and going to be a Sophmore in HS. He is also very actively involved in HS activities including band, sports & drama. I wish he had as much enthusiasm for the academic side of school. I wish I could say it was traditional troop activities that has kept him interested in scouts, but it isn't. Given his other commitments in HS he attended maybe 50% of the troop's activities last year, compared to 80-90% while in junior HS. What has re-invigorated his interest? This summer he signed on as a Lead Scout at summer camp for 4 weeks and has been having a ball. 1 week working to set up camp, a week of National Junior Leader Training and 2 weeks of acting as an Asst. Counselor. Lots of interaction with adult and older camp staff and plenty of leadership activity with younger kids comming to spend a week at camp. He has his camp staff carrier planned out for the next 3 years. He loves it. So much so, his last day off he mentioned he was thinking about running for SPL next year and cutting back on some of his HS activities. 2 months ago he was talking about quitting, now he wants to be SPL. He can't wait to bring some of the things he learned a NJLT to the troop, especially all that "scouty" stuff. I only hope the adults in the troop can keep up. SA

I don't know if I've ever ignored myself competely. I have been known to ignore my own better judgement. Like the time I volunteered to sit up front on the Troops last whitewater rafting outing, or when I volunteered to arrange our high adventure trip this summer or... wel SA

Personally I think using that styrofoam popcorn like packing stuff is an abuse of the use of styrofoam. It really bugs me to open up a package with that stuff and have it fly all over the room. They pick up static electricity and are impossible to clean up easily. Just drives me nuts. Another abuse of styrofoam is to use it as fire building material. When it burns it smells, and usually leave a clump of black yucky stuff in the fire pit. Now I'm Ok with using styrofoam for coffee cups, as long as when disposed of it's disposed of properly. SA

My own thoughts on this are more in line with OGE. We may never know why juris was suspended. All we have to go on is the past history of how the forum has been disciplined. There have many rancorous debates in the Issues & Politics section that have been allowed and many heated discussions on how to present and implement scouting. Many postings have had less than perfect grammer and spelling, and have been allowed to continue. In the past, when a poster has been banned or suspended it has usually been because of relatively egregious violations of the forum rules. While we can be relatively annonomous, we are not expected to missrepresent ourselves. My own suspicion is that the moderators became aware of information that indicated juris had violated the rules of the forum and suspended him accordingly. I don't know for sure, but that would be consistent with their past disciplinary actions. I don't think I can recall a member ever being suspended purely for presenting an opinion or an approach to things regardless of how badly their spelling or grammer was. Just my thoughts. SA

My suggestion for a protest would be to pre-book a block of rooms at the hotel to be built on land currently owned by Judge Souter in NH.(See the other thread.) Although I think going after the Justice's property for development is a little misguided. That developer should be looking at the Town Council's homes in New London, CT. SA

Just to follow up with Eamonn's summary of this thread so far. Q:How many CO's do little or nothing? A:Lots Follow up questions with no answers. Q: What can individual unit leaders do to get COs to get more involved? Q: Why would a leader of a "loosey-goosey" unit that thinks they are doing OK, want their CO involved? SA

Perhaps the link I posted on the Moral Authority thread fits here as well or better. Here's a link to an interesting article on psychopaths in leadership positions. Some of us have expressed a concern about the Enronization of some in the professional ranks in scouting and Enron and similar executive behavior is discussed in depth in this article. Some of it may also apply to leadership at the unit level. http://biz.yahoo.com/special/psycho05.html I just thought it was interesting and seemed to have some relevance to the title of the thread and intial discussion. I don't know that it has any relevance to the last few posts. SA

Here's a link to an interesting article on psychopaths in leadership positions. Some of us have expressed a concern about the Enronization of some in the professional ranks in scouting and Enron and similar executive behavior is discussed in depth in this article. Some of it may also apply to leadership at the unit level. http://biz.yahoo.com/special/psycho05.html I just thought it was interesting and seemed to have some relevance to the title of the thread and intial discussion. I don't know that it has any relevance to the last few posts. SA

Well at least one branch of the Federal Government can be involved with scouting! SA

With all this talk about declining membership I though I'd share the article below about a group in the Boston area that is seeing increased interest in it's scouting programs. http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/06/12/scouting_a_cultural_bridge/ SA

How about a debate segment, you know a point, counterpoint kind of thing like used to be on 60 Minutes. I can think a several entertaining potential match ups! Actually, it sounds like a great idea. SA

My scout son is now in High School and didn't march with the scouts, He was in the HS Band. Me, I doned my uniform and set out to march with the troop when Her Who Must Be Obeyed inquired as to where I was going? I told her I was marching in the parade. Well she had figured that since our son would not be marching in the parade as a scout I was off the hook and would be available for honey do's around the yard. I confess I mutinied and marched in the parade. I did make up for it(or paid up for it) the next weekend. The main point of my post though is this. I had been somewhat concerned the last few weeks, because participation of youth members had seemed to die down a bit. Troop meeting attendance was a little light and our last outing only had 6 scouts. However, I arrived at the parade starting point to find 20 scouts or so, a third of them are in High School,and 8 adults. The parade meant marching down the middle of town in uniform. As we marched, they recieved a number of cat calls from the crowd. Most were well intentioned, "Hey, Joe scout!, way to go!" , none were negative. Anyway, the parade through town in our uniforms, was the the best attended event we've had as a unit in the last two months. Came away feeling much better. SA

While I agree that at a national level BSA Inc. is essentially a business, especially to those involved in the professional ranks, not all businesses are unethical and one would hope that BSA Inc. could operate better than most. These situations tarnish the image of the entire organization. I agree this issue is far more widespread than most of us would like to believe and would like to see a more concerted effort on the part of the national office to police it's own organization rather than waiting for law enforcement to get involved. That means asking the tough questions we may not like the answers to. I've seen too many organizations implode because the leadership did not want to hear bad news, so no one reported it to them. SA

Since so much of this discussion, (which I have found interesting to follow) revolves around uniform rules, could someone please clarify what the national uniform rule is (not a troop or unit made up rule, the BSA rule) and what the consequences are for violation of that rule or rules are? Are they the same for adult leaders and youth members? SA

With all due respect Bob W. I don't think there are many scouters that pick and choose which rules they follow "based solely on their personal comfort or convenience. " Do we all deliver the program perfectly as designed and intended? Probably not. But most are doing the best they can with the resources they have. In some cases a unit may miss an outing because they can't get enough adults to volunteer. In others, maybe they can't get everyone to wear a full and correct uniform, because it's difficult to convince parents it's worth the cost, and even at District and Council events, a substantial portion of attendees, including adult leaders, don't wear a full and correct uniform. They can't make every meeting and while they volunteer for training, other adult leaders in the troop can't find the time for training and don't understand the program. Sure we could ask the CO to find new leaders that will find the time for training, but these are parents, committed to their children and in addition to volunteering for scouts, are soccer coaches, leaders in church groups and other youth organizations and finding committed adults that are willing to spend "one hour a week" with scouts and camp with them is not that easy. Maybe on an occaision an adult inadvertantly finds himself alone with a scout, through no fault of his or her own. Personally, I have yet to meet an adult scouter who is in the program for their own benefit. Everyone I have met, their primary reason for being involved is to support the youth members in some way. I will admit I probably do not know as many as some of you who have been involved with the program longer than I have and there probably some that are out there to that are involved satisfy their own ego somehow. I just havn't met them. So what do we teach scouts when we try and come up short? We try and try again. We move the program forward inch by inch, centimeter by centimeter as best we can. Each year, we do something a little better and take satisfaction in that. It might be we find a unit that's not doing the whole program, not all of it, but the're trying to do scouting and want to. The next year they do a little better. The next year they lose a really popular ASM and the Webelos class that joins all turn out to like baseball better then camping and fall back a bit. The following year they pick up an enthusiastic Webelos leader and 12 new scouts that love camping and the outdoors. And they just keep on doing the best they can for the scouts that do show up. And once in a while, even for those units that don't wear a full uniform, do a high adventure trip every year, have a full and active roster of trained MB counselors, a fully staffed and trained committee and scoutmaster core, they get to watch a young man enter the scouting program, who picks his nose, stutters and can barely get himself dressed and fed on his first campout, cries because he's away from home, who will never be elected president of the student council or be captain of the football team, go through their unit, rise through the ranks, spend time with younger scouts, get elected SPL, earn his Eagle and graduates from High School a polished, well spoken young man on his way to a good college or university. Sorry for the rant. I just got going. SA

Well I'm not a lawyer, but if I understand the way the US government and constitution work, "was it merely the fact that 5 unelected judges agreed to make it so?" Yes, 5 unelected judges, appointed by the Executive Branch and approved by the Legislative Branch of government make it so. SA

We go to a local high school pool usually at least twice per year. We usually rent the pool for an hour for our exclusive use, and invite family members. We also use the time to let 2nd and 1st class candidates meet their swimming requirements out side of summer camp. It is always a fun event. I hadn't thought about swimming during an open swim though. The idea that some of the activities would attract interest from other boys, potential recruits intrigues me. SA

I would sign it. I understand the BSA discriminates. I may not agree with every policy the organization has but like others recognize that overall, the BSA provides a very good program benificial to my son. Now if the statement implied that I had to agree with the policy to be a member, I would have to rethink it. Don't think that's going to happen soon either. It would cut the potential membship pool significantly. I can only think of one organization lately that requires signed loyalty statements to participate in it's events. There are others I'm sure but I can only think of one for now. SA