scoutingagain

Jeepers we're upto 5 pages on this. You'd think there was something really controversial like changing the uniform pants or reintroducing berets being discussed. I think this is a good requirement. Is it there because there is a concern about membership? Maybe, but it encourages the best way there is to get new scouts. One to one communication about the fun a scout has with his unit. You can be fairly certain there will be few discussions among 11 year old boys about the politics of gay rights or if the BSA really is non-sectarian or if the local SE should be indicted. And while scouts may be relatively low on the coolness list I don't think it's off the scale either. Particulary with those units that have an active outdoor program to point to. If scouts are known as an activity where kids go to collect Merit Badges it may seem relatively uncool. If they're known as a group that hikes, rock climbs, whitewater rafts, and goes places, etc. the coolness factor improves considerably. As I've noted before, my own son has been known to wear his troop activity shirt as a warm up shirt for wrestling matches. (It's especially satisfying when he defeats an opponent that notices the shirt and says something like, Oh I get to wrestle the Boy Scout.) I've seen the activity shirt worn around town by other scouts as well. I'll admit they don't casually wear their "Class A's" around but they do march, er I mean walk, stride? down the middle of town twice a year in their class A's during Memorial Day and Veteran's Day parades. This includes most of the high schoolers. When our guys came home from their High Knoll trip this summer, they told all their friends. Some of their older ones have confessed they wished they hadn't dropped out. If scouts are having fun, doing stuff their proud of, talking about it to their friends will be easy and some might even join. SA

And Kilts are not part of the uniform and inappropriate for changing light bulbs from a step ladder. SA

My experience with scouts and winter camping, is that once you get them out of cotton pants (ie. bluejeans) the biggest issues are footware, gloves/mitten & hats. Someone always seems to lose, or not bring a pair of gloves and some scouts refuse to wear hats until their too cold. Our typical pre-winter outing inspection consists of a visual once over. Are they wearing boots(not sneakers) and can they show us at least one decent pair of glove/mittens and a hat. If they have those, and they're not in bluejeans, they're good to go. Have never had to send a scout home to get a winter coat or parka, but several times for a hat, or a missing glove. SA

It will be. I don't know the details but an article in a local paper indicated Massachusetts would be purchasing some for inner city schools. It is apparently not available to individuals for purchase. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

I'll try and answer you FScouter. I don't know that virtual patrols(or as I will refer to them from now on as "outing crews") solve problems per se and I agree if used too frequently they do inhibit the development of Patrols. They do make the logistics of an outing a little less cumbersome though. In the unit I serve THE SCOUTs have figured that it is easier to say, bring and set up one dining fly, for a crew of 6 and share it rather than bring and set up 3 dining flys for 3 patrols of 2. The same goes for cook kits, food and stoves. During the planning meeting before an outing the Scouts figure out what they need for an outing and the best way to address the needs. If forming a crew is more efficient due to turn out, that is what they do. If there are enough scouts to stay in patrols they will. To me this shows these scouts are willing to look at a challenge, (an outing) and cooperate to most efficiently meet that challenge. They all share the burden of chores during the outing. They sleep in twos (sometime threes). There isn't the attitude, "Hey, I'm not sharing with those Flaming Arrows. They can get their own stuff." Or "If they only have two guys, tough nuggies." I notice in two of the additional postings, its ADULTS, that seem to step in and forbid this. SA

FScouter, I don't know if your comments are directed at my post or not. I never said a 2 scout patrol couldn't work. I just outlined how the unit I work with ends up with virtual patrols for an occaisional outing. Adults certainly don't direct it that way. It's not even like someone says, "OK, lets make up a virtual patrol." The scouts are usually used to working in groups of 4 or more. If there ends up being less than that, they simply naturally tend to regroup themselves that way. I guess the trade off is Patrol Identity vrs respect for Boy Led decisions. I don't know which is more valuble. The scout decisions to regroup themselves does not effect their safety during the outing so we let it stand. Yes it does erode to some degree patrol identity and it is not something I actively encourage. If anything, we try and do our best to work to have enough involvement to keep patrols together. Sometimes, it just doesn't happen that way. SA

I would have to fully agree with Bob White, Eamonn and others that have concerns over virtual patrols on campouts. They are correct, they do not help in forming patrol identity. But they do allow boys to figure out how to deal with organizational issues. The unit I serve, operates very similarly to EagleKY's. On most outings the 4 patrols we have will function as patrols. Sometimes we end up with that low turn out. We only have a core group of scouts that really like winter camping for example. And as I said, for the most part the boys workout the virtual patrol issues themselves. Typically the SPL will get together with all those that plan on attending the next outing. Sometimes 6-8 scouts show up. 3 from one patrol, 2 from another, 1 from a third and 0 from another. The Scouts, will usually then say, hey why don't you guys eat with us, or you guys do breakfast we'll do dinner and they end up functioning as a single unit similar to a crew. Usually an elected PL will take the lead, sometimes the group will appoint someone who hasn't had a chance to lead. Now I could, as an Adult, walk over and say wait a minute, this isn't the Patrol Method as laid out in the book! You guys can't do this! But I don't. The scouts themselves have worked out, what seems to me, a very logical way to run such an outing under the circumstances. Is it perfect? No. Is it Boy Lead? Yes! I don't think the concept of virtual patrols for outing is a good one, however I think it is better than saying each patrol has to have a certain number of participants or no one from that patrol is allowed to go. If it happened more than a couple of outings a year, I guess we could look at forming fewer, larger patrols. SA SA

These may be obvious, On how one individual can effect the community, Follow Me, Boys It's A Wonderful Life Mr. Holland's Opus You might want to think about Casablanca and Mr.Rick's effect on the community...but please do not compare DE's to Captain Renault. SA

I confess we sometimes end up using the "virtual" patrol method in the unit I serve. It is for the sames reasons you cited in your post. While we have about 25 active scouts, on some outings there will be only one or two scouts from a particular patrol, so he/they joins up with one of the other patrols. Sometimes, due to conflicts, family commitments etc. we will have a relatively low turn out for an outing, say 6 - 8 scouts total. In that case, they will form a virtual patrol and act as one patrol for the outing, rather than 2 - 3 patrols of only 1-3 scouts each. The good news is, for the most part, these arrangements are worked out by the boys themselves. It would be nice though to have 4 - 5 patrols of 6-8 scouts each like in the good old days. The scouts do sleep 2 to a tent, with an occaisonal triple. I have not seen the general use of large family style tents in the units I'm familiar with. SA

Ya know...on another thread I said something along the lines about how some folks seem to have a low opinion of adult scouters. After reading some of these threads about MBs and BORs, especially about the guy that had scouts stand at attention for the duration of the review, I'm beginning to understand how some could come to that opinion. OGE, in my experience most accreditation programs require a fee to have a reviewer or auditor come evaluate the program to be accredited. If you explained to the BSA there would be a fee involved, you might get someone to listen. But I'm beginning to agree with you. How about adding, only troops with accredited programs would be allowed to award scouts the rank of Eagle. If others want to run around in the woods in uniform and play scouting that would be fine. If they want to be able to award scouting's highest youth award they would need to be accredited. SA

Hard to believe this requirement is so controversial that it generates 4 pages of discussion. I see nothing wrong with making a specific point of having a scout discuss scouting with a potential member. It may even generate a few more members. A simple discussion with the scout can be used to confirm the requirement. SA

I know this thread should stop, but I can't resist. Combining two recent points made by Mr. Hunt & Mr. White. (Note: picketing the Service Center, in my opinion, is not "orderly" in terms of Scouting,) However, it may be legal. "If it's legal, in can't be unjust." (A presidential like statement if I ever heard one.) Therefore picking a Scout Service Center may be an act of justice. Don't know if that counts as orderly though. In my own mind simple picketing without disrupting customers of the center would not be disorderly. Now if picketers harrassed customers while entering the facility that would be another matter. ( I recall my own experience of being called a "Baby killing, facist, pig" once while entering my own place of employment. A group was picketing the building because there was another firm in residence that was doing business with the then apartheid South African Govt. That I regarded as disorderly. ) SA Carry on, ... or maybe we should all move on.

Bob, I happen to completely agree with your volunteer military analogy. If one joined the military with the idea they would be defending the US from terrorists or governments that threatened the US and found themselves fighting is a war that had to do with neither, or joined the National Guard with the idea they would be there to support their community in times of crises and found themselves as an occupying force in a foriegn country for over a year or more on multiple deployments some might be very skeptical and dissapointed in their leadership. If one joins an organization that espouses ethical and moral behaviour only to find some of the leadership of that organization that don't live the behavior that the organization promotes, some might be very skeptical and dissapointed in the leadership. SA

I think the main issue is that there are multiple reports of paid BSA staff in several states reporting greater numbers of youth members than there actually are inorder to meet personal performance goals and recieve a greater proportion of funding from agencies such as the United Way. In other words some people have lied to get more money. A quick internet search came up with reports of allegations in 5 different states over the last several years including some being investigated by the FBI. I don't believe the National BSA organization is involved in a systematic effort to fraudently increase membership. My perception of their response is that it is much like the French Police Chief in Casablanca when told to shut down gambling in Rick's Cafe. Shocked to find out gambling was going on while he collected his winnings. From this forum I doubt I am the only one with this perception. The question I have is, what is National doing to change that perception other than stating they don't approve of inaccurate or fraudulent membership reporting. It appears that they don't want to ask tough questions because they don't really want the answers. Regarding Loyalty and Obedience. One should be Loyal and Obedient, but not naive. It's one thing to revoke membership of those that undermine the program, it's quite another thing to revoke membership of those who inquire about the accuracy of membership. Who is really more loyal to the program? In recent years we have seen illegal and immoral behavior on the part of Presidents, Governors, Mayors, Priests, Bishops, Scout Executives and CEOs. As members of an organization that promotes ethical choices there is no reason we shouldn't expect the leadership of that organization to be responsive to questions when there is an appearance of questionable behavior and not be in fear of having our membership revoked. SA

Not all of us adult scouters are fully trained & experienced wilderness guides, whitewater experts, rockcimbing instructors, Certified Scuba instructors, NRA firearm instructors, BSA Lifeguards. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the services of a qualified outfitter with knowledgeable instructors and guides to introduce an outdoor/adventure activity to the scouts. While I would be comfortable leading a group on a moderate backpacking trip, in no way am I, or anyone in our unit qualified to do whitewater rafting. Does that stop us from whitewater rafting? No, we use the services of a qualified outfitter and go have a good time. It's those units that try and save a few pennies here and there and try and do things themselves when they really aren't qualified that get people hurt or worse. I understood what Kudu was saying and don't think it took too much in the way of reading comprehension to do so. I didn't see that he was doing anything that violated the Scout Oath Law or G2SS. Some folks just seem to have a pretty low opinion of adult scouters. SA

I would have to say those that work above the unit level are probably unappreciated by scouts and scouters alike. Personally I have no desire to volunteer beyond the unit level mainly because it doesn't seem to me those that do get the opportunity to "see it in a boy's face" as much. That's maybe just my impression. Regarding recognition & rewards, The two best rewarding moments for me as an adult scouter have been when scouts have thanked me for helping them put an outing together. 3 years ago our unit went to Gettysburg at my suggestion and assistance and this was the first time this unit had camped outside their normal weekend campsites and summer camp. The SPL came up to me and told me it was the best trip he'd been on. Last month we returned from High Knoll, the first BSA high adventure trip this unit had been on in decades. Two scouts came up to me to thank me for helping to set up the trip. One was my son. Keep the knots, medals & certificates. All I need to know is the scouts had fun, learned something and I'll keep on keepin' on. SA

Given the discussions on the plethora of electronic devices making their way into scout outings and the thought that backpacking trips would get the scouts to leave the devices behind now comes the following: SA WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A backpack that converts a plodding gait into electricity could soon be charging up mobile phones, navigation devices and even portable disc players, U.S.-based researchers said on Thursday. Their backpack design converts mechanical energy from up-and-down movement of the backpack's cargo to electricity during normal walking. Fueled by a snack, hikers can put the spring in their steps to good use, the researchers write in Friday's issue of the journal Science. The backpack is deliberately designed to shake around a bit. The up-and-down movement of the backpack's cargo compartment against the frame of the pack turns a gear connected to a generator. The simple magnetic coil generator is similar in principal to those seen in hand-cranked radios, flashlights that work after a rhythmic shaking and other devices. Humping along just under 85 pounds (38 kg) of weight in the backpack can produce up to 7 watts of electricity, Lawrence Rome and colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania report. This is more than enough electricity to simultaneously power an MP3 music player, a personal digital assistant, night vision goggles, a handheld global positioning satellite navigation device, and a mobile telephone. The not-so-graceful human gait is a big help in making the pack work, they reported. Human hips rise and fall about 2 inches with each step and a backpack worn by a person who is walking rises and falls as well, they said. "As humans walk, they vault over their extended leg, causing the hip to rise 5 to 7 centimeters on each step. Since the backpack is connected to the hip, it too must be lifted 5-7 centimeters," Rome said in a statement. "It is this vertical movement of the backpack that ultimately powers electricity generation." But nothing is free, so what does this energy cost the hiker? Little more than a snack, said Rome. "Metabolically speaking, we've found this to be much cheaper than we anticipated. The energy you exert could be offset by carrying an extra snack, which is nothing compared to weight of extra batteries," Rome said. "Pound for pound, food contains about 100-fold more energy than batteries." Wait for the official BSA model.

We were told about the requirement at our local Roundtable meeting a few weeks ago. There were few specifics, but it sounded like the requirement be along the lines of: Do one of the following: a) Bring a friend to a Troop Meeting or outing. b) Discuss with a boy who is eligible for scout membership the benefits of scouting and your troop c) etc. Note: The above are not exact quotes of the requirement but I got the impression there would be several alternatives that would focus on one on one recruiting efforts by the scout. There would be no requirement that the eligible boy actually join. SA

Given multiple accounts of unethical and in some cases illegal activities on the part of the professional staff of scouting, I for one am glad to see a little outrage. If misbehaving youth in uniform reflect on the program and all of us, national publicity about professional BSA staff reflects on all of us as well. Some of us care too much about the program to bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything just hunky dory. SA

Pack, Can't help but think you have an interesting social circle down there in Georgia. SA

My initial reactions to criticism of the Bush Administration was that it was a little pre-mature. Now my reaction is all levels of government could have done better. Clearly the city itself was not as prepared as it could have been, neither was the state. If a third of the police force walks off the job, how is that something the federal government is supposed to plan for? At the same time, by Sunday the magnitude of the disaster seemed to become apparent to most anyone watching the news. Yet on Thursday I listened to an interview with the Director of FEMA, where he denied that there was anyone even in the Convention Center, yet this is where some 2,000 people had been directed to go by the City. There seemed to be a massive failure of communication between all levels of government. The scary thing is we've had 4 years since 9/11 to supposedly improve these types of beaurocratic communications problems and it seems like little if anything along those lines has been improved. How much $$ has been allocated to Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness in the last 4 years? Granted the magnitude of the disaster was probably more that exepected, but that doesn't excuse the lack of communication and cooperation between city, state and federal agencies. The buck has to stop somewhere and if your a Mayor, Governor or President expect that to be your desk. I continue to pray for all those affected and continue to donate what I can to relief efforts. But the government's response to this disaster, both local and federal, deserves a long close look. There are lessons to be learned. We could easily get hit by another CAT 4 Storm this year and more than likely will next year. Those in charge prior to the disaster have some 'splainen to do. Me, I'm going to double check my own disaster kit at home. SA

Welcome JDECKER, We have not tried these, but I stumbled on this website that included reviews of backpacking trips in the Green Mountains. These may be of interest. http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/gmfl/green_mountain/recreation_management/backpacking/index.htm For very beginning backpackers, check out Mt. Alander in Washington State Forest in the the SE Corner of Massachusetts. It's a 1.5 mile hike in to several primitive campsites that will easily accomodate 15 hikers. There is also a 15mile loop that can be done that would loop around and bring you back to the AT that passes thru the area. I'd be interested in hikes in the Mohawk State Forest. SA

scoutldr, Your not alone in the right lane. I've slowed down as well and I noticed going home yesterday others have too, frustrating others who seem to have more $$ than brains. Gas jumped 25-50 cents a gallon around here yesterday and I suspect we will see spot shortages over the weekend, which will be tough for many families expected to move students to college this weekend. Made sure the Durango was topped off and am not driving it until Saturday. Unless we get real lucky, I think we'll see some of those 70's style gas lines soon. Have to go find my leisure suit. One thing though, in the 70's during the gas crisis, it was not uncommon for some folks to hoard extra gas in a container in their trunk. If the gas lines come, and for the near term I think some of us will see them, Please, do not carry gas in your vehicle outside of the gas tank. This practice in the 70's resulted in fatalities from fires after small crashes that otherwise would have been nothing but fender benders. SA

Good to hear from you TP and on such a positive note! I believe there is a National Award for saving a life and I hope someone nominates this scout. You'd have to check with your council to get the particulars on the process. SA

Ed, In many states and municipalities it would be illegal to not hire a gay school teacher if they are otherwise qualified. While the BSA is free to set it's own leadership policies as a private organization, many local governments have included sexual orientation in the same class as race, religion and gender and therefore hiring decisions may not consider the sexual orientation of the candidate any more than they could their skin color. At this point, I would say any unit that is currently chartered by a government agency, including recreation depts, public schools, parks departments etc. should be actively seeking an alternate CO. SA