scoutingagain

Well let's not forget the most influential person on the US economy for the last 20 years or so. Alan Greenspan. I suspect Trev is looking for influential folks who are outside an occupation already in public service and did not intend to slight those that already are. That's how I read his post. In that instance I might say Oprah Winfrey. SA

I agree with others that this is an activity that can be done safely, under the right supervision and set up. Our scouts had an opportunity to do this at High Knoll and all enjoyed it, so did the adults that participated. However, these were all scouts that were at least 13 years old. Based on the age guidelines in the G2SS, it seems if having Webelos participate in this event would be questionable. (But this certainly isn't the only area of the G2SS that provides questionable guidance.) One word of caution though. If any unit does this, or participates in this at a camporee, summer camp or other venue, please emphasize to scouts this is one of those "Don't try this at home, or at least not without adult supervision." activities. I agree anyone should feel free to ask questions, especially about safety concerns. SA

"I do agree that the more liberals who don't like her, the better I like her " Ironically I think the main reason some conservatives don't her like is because some Democrats do. I mean if she was on the Democrat's OK list, there must be something wrong with her. Like Acco, I frankly don't know enough about her to have an opinion. I would have to agree with Kahuna. All I want is a Judge that will ojectively decide a case based on what the law says and the facts presented and arguments made at the time of the case and not impose their own ideology. There can't be a litmus test as to how one would vote on a particular issue. My personal views are that the last two court nominees provide better insight to the real George Bush as opposed to the image his handlers would like is core supporters to see. I don't believe he's as socially conservative as folks have been led to believe. His Vice President has acknowledged support for the idea people should be able to chose their own partners in life regardless of gender. I've read his mother is Pro-choice. And there is a difference between personally being against the idea of abortion and determining if the state can legally outlaw abortion under current law. Since none of us have a direct vote, this is one we have to leave up to those that have been elected to decide, which is one reason I lose sleep. SA

Welcome jdavey, I will confess this is weak response. I can't help you with ideas for woodworking. Anything I ever did woodworking wise always looked like my junior high school woodshop project. MB couselor wise I can give you a couple of tips. First, if you are working with a group, keep in mind the MB requirements are for individuals so don't give group credit for things like..."discuss with your counselor..." or "demonstrate". These are things each scout should do to earn the MB. Second is, as a counselor you can decide what is acceptable in terms of meeting the requirements for the badge or not, but you do not have the authority to add, substitute or subtract from the requirements. Good luck, and I'm sure your participation as a MB counselor is appreciated by the scouts. SA

"You wouldn't believe the shouting match over the Scout Sunday and following Pancake Breakfast conflicting with the Cub Scouts Blue and Gold weekend." I really don't know what to say other than I don't have the patience for the behavior described above among scouts let alone adults. Our unit is blessed with a really good group of adults/parents that really enjoy each other's company. We don't always agree but usually come to an amicable consensus on issues. I can honestly say I don't think I would partipate with the group described here. If my son wanted to stay with the unit I'd support him but I couldn't see being a volunteer leader in a unit if I was subject to being yelled at. I wouldn't put up with it in my job let alone a volunteer position. Where do these people come from? SA

There's alot of good suggestions here but I generally agree there is nothing wrong with presenting ideas and I agree with EagleinKY that the best approach might be through the SM or the Committee. Having your nephew bring up ideas is not a bad way to go either. The approach may vary depending on to what degree the troop is Boy Led. I was in a similar position 4-5 years ago. The unit was in a rut camping in the same places they had gone to the last 3-4 years doing the same things. Given this history the Boy leadership at that time had no other experiences. I asked the committee has the Troop ever done this or gone here. I said I would be willing to help out with the logistics and planning if anyone thought they would be interested. Trips were suggested to the scouts, they expressed interest and I did more of the work on my own, but now have a cadre of scouts that help plan these trips. They also now have a background of experiences they can draw on to help plan Troop outings and are not afraid to suggest things they havn't done before. I still suggest outings. Some are OK'd, others postponed and some rejected. But I recognize this is their unit(the boys) and if they don't want to do something I suggest that's their perogative. I guess the point is, as others have said, if you make suggestions be prepared to help make them happen. Good luck. SA

Brent, We may live in two different worlds. Here in the Northeast most non-union contractors pay as much or more than union contractors...for the skilled trades. They have to, otherwise they'd go off join the union and work union projects. Non-union contractors do have an advantage though, since they do not have to live up to union labor rules, which as you have pointed out can be restrictive. For the record I'm neither pro or con with respect to labor unions. Have worked on both sides. Be that as it may, my greater issue is less the Davis-Bacon Issue than the suspension of penalties for using illegal workers, which makes the Davis Bacon issue irrelevant. No business owner is going to hire illegal aliens and then worry about complying with Davis Bacon or any other labor requirement. While it undermines opportunities for Americans currently needing work in the area it also sets up the exploitable underclass I mentioned. And Rooster, "the character issue goes much deeper than some would like to think" I agree and no I don't sleep well at night. I believe George Bush is a sincere, down-to-earth, unpretentious, God fearing man who loves our country who has been taken advantage of by elements within the Republican Party(and it's not the Christian Right). I have no desire to discuss liberal or conservative politicians. I view both with equal skepticism. Good night, and may God Bless us, everyone. SA

OK Longhaul, I'm confused. There is nothing in the YP or G2SS that I am aware of that would prevent an 18 year old male, and 17 year old female who happened to be members of the same Venture Crew from having a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. Of course they can't share a tent and couldn't even if they were both youth members on an outing. But there is nothing that says they can't go to the Prom together or have a relationship outside scouting. SA

Scotiacat, I'm from Mass as well, and the answer to your questions 2, 3 & 4 are yes, yes and yes. However 4 is unlikely unless the Church were to declare Bankruptcy and a Judge order those assets to be allocated to a group other than the Pack. As long as the Church wishes to charter a Pack and controls its own funds, there would be no reason to believe the assets the Pack uses would be at risk. However, if the Pack were to disband, the Church could lay claim to the assets assuming they knew they existed. SA

Davis-Bacon only requires employers pay the "prevailing wage", which for practical purposes is the prevailing union wage. It does not require contractors use union labor or comply with union labor rules. It is not uncommon for non-union contractors bid on, win and complete work under Davis-Bacon requirements. In fact, in some areas where some labor categories are in short supply, the "prevailing union wage" is actually lower than the current market wage. Electricians are a good example. Most are reluctant to work on projects covered by Davis-Bacon because they can make more $$ on projects that are not. (Hint: If you know of someone who is not quite college material but is relatively smart, have them look into the skilled building trades. There is very good money to be made, and I mean better than most college graduate money, for those willing to learn and apply a skilled trade.) As a practical matter it is not the skilled labor categories that will be at issue. It will be primarily the unskilled cleanup crews that do demo work, literally mop up, scrub and clean and do manual labor. If an employer is suffienciently unscrupulus to hire "undocumented" aliens, which was against the law, now it just won't be enforced, why would they bother to obey OSHA regs? or pay even the legal minimum wage or provide worker's comp insurance for their employees? If they don't, do you think they are explaining to their illegal labor force that they can call an agency of the government to enforce those rules? SA

The following is just my opinion but...I think the chartering concept is pretty clear. While many COs are pretty hands off, and may have little knowledge of day to day activities of a unit or their financial activities, if push came to shove... I think all assets of a BSA unit would be awarded to the CO. Now, as Kahuna has pointed out there may be ways around having the CO as owner. Setting of a separate entity that "lends" the equipment to the unit or having individuals purchase equipment they allow the unit to use. As a practical matter though, many units have their own accounts,(we do) under their own control and the only time it would be an issue is if a unit were to fold or liquidate, something that is fortunately relatively rare. SA

I havn't seen anyone talk about closing the borders. What most of us are asking is to control the borders and control immigration. My frustration is not with those that come here to seek a better life. Heck if I could earn 5X - 10X my current salary in Canada, I'd probably think about working north of the border for a few years myself, and I'm not starving and have a roof over my head. My frustration is with the sheer incompetence of the current administration. By suspending the Davis Bacon act and not penalizing employers that hire "undocumented" workers for the clean up of Katrina and Rita, they enlarge an underclass of labor that is easily exploited. They are not covered by federal, state or local labor laws, safety and health regulations, worker's compensation insurance, etc. How many will get hurt or sick because employers will not provide proper training or protective equipment? Who would they turn to for help? How benevolent or Christian like is that? It maybe argued that well, at least their better off than they would be in their home country. But is the answer, in this age of international terrorism, to essentially open our country to anyone that can get in, which is what the Bush team has essentially done? SA

We consider 18 year olds to be Adults. On or shortly after their 18th Birthday, they are given the "talk". Their new status is explained to them and their responsibilities and they are asked to complete an Adult Leader application and encouraged to attend adult training. They are encouraged to remain active, and participate in outings, training younger scouts, etc. in a role appropriate for their age. Yes all the adult guidelines in G2SS and YPT apply. However there is nothing in those documents that I am aware of that would prevent an individual from participating in fundraising activities. I understand that this can be awkward, as we are seeing more 18 year olds still in High School and many of their peers still participate in scouting as youth. (At our council camp, staff that have their birthdays while at camp, are removed from the youth staff quarters, to the adult staff quarters that day.) SA

"(at which time the liberals will be the first to scream about the government not controlling the borders)." The current administation has pretty much opened our southern border to all commers that are willing to pick up a mop and pail to clean up New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. I agree, we'll all be more secure once those bleeding heart liberals currently occupying the White House out. SA

In this day and age I think the owner is asking a very prudent question and FScouter has given the best answer. SA

I didn't know whether to resurrect this thread, post this under the Katrina response thread or the America thread, since that touched on immigration issues as well. But I thought I'd share this information on how this Administation is dealing with the immigration issue as well as Katrina Response. "To stimulate relief efforts, President Bush suspended portions of the Davis-Bacon Act, which requires that construction workers on federal projects be paid the prevailing local wage. Then the Department of Homeland Security said it would not penalize employers who hired illegal workers. While the idea behind these actions is to lower costs, cut red tape and accelerate rebuilding, the reality is that contractors will have free rein to hire undocumented workers." The full text of the article can be found at http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20051014/cm_usatoday/katrinasnextexposimmigrationwoes;_ylt=ArEWMY9Iuy6VjuDTvyR1zSms0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3YWFzYnA2BHNlYwM3NDI- SA

To be honest, if I was the owner, I'd consider requiring the scouts and/or their parents sign a permission slip holding the owner harmless. I don't know how valid it would be, but it is pretty standard fare when dealing with private outfittters, tourguides or other businesses. SA

While working in the UK several years ago, I was able to easily understand the natives and had occaision to visit some of our facilities in Holland and found the Dutch speak a very acceptable form of American like English. However, I had some difficulty understanding the Scots. If they're speaking English it's not any form of English I'm used to. The Scots I ran into though we're by and large friendlier and more outgoing than their Engish counterparts. The only other so called English speaking folks I've had difficulty understanding is on a project outside Baton Rouge, LA which from a cultural perspective was far more different from New England than London was. Since I grew up in New Jersey, I don't have an accent and can understand every word in a Bruce Springsteen song. SA

"although it's very rude to speak foreign languages among ourselves when we know there are people who don't understand what we are saying in offices and close spaces like elevators" So how many Americans does anyone know, that when travelling in a non-English speaking country, speak in the host country's language for the benefit of those that don't speak English? SA

If your looking for a first time backpacking high adventure trek I can highly recommend the High Knoll Adventure at the Blue Ridge Mountains Scout Reservation. See http://www.bsa-brmc.org/pdfs/forms/camp/camppromo/hk.pdf Our unit participated in this adventure this past summer and had a great time. We covered 45 miles or so in 5 days and had an opportunity to participate in activities at each camp we stopped at similar to Philmont. Scouts and adults had a great time. We had not done any backpacking for years and to get ready we did a couple of short overnighters, 1-2 miles away from the vehicles to get scouts and adults used to living out of thier backpacks. We also did a 2 night, 15 miler that really gave us a feel for what we were to expect. The one mistake we made was allowing a scout who did not make the long shakedown hike to come on the trip. The only reason he we allowed it was his father came along. The scout did not benefit from the lessons learned on the long shakedown trip and it showed the first day of the trek. In retrospect, we should have insisted he attend the shakedown hike. We had another scout that struggled on the shakedown. He and his dad made a point of doing a couple of additional hikes on their own to get ready for the trek and that scout did fine. There is good advice in the posts above, but the High Knoll adventure is an afordable, pre-packaged backpacking excursion that is easy and affordable to arrange. It is also a safe way to introduce scouts to backpacking, always having the resources of the two base camps on the reservation within a few miles. Good luck. We were in your shoes just a year and a half ago and now have a core group of scouta really hungry for another high adventure trip. SA

Rooster, I agree with much of what you said. There's certainly nothing wrong with being proud to be American or to be proud of one's faith or pride in our Nation's history. I feel pride in all those things. I choose not to express my pride in my country, faith or history in the manner the author did. SA

Rooster, I don't normally correct spelling. But as one of Slovak decent I couldn't help but notice the reference to Chezc? I believe you mean Czech, or is there some other Eastern European country with a C & Z in it? The Slovaks I know think Czechs should learn to speak proper Slovak. And yes, may God bless the USA, and Merry Christmas, although I believe a Happy Yom Kippur is more timely. And I'm sorry, if a disorganized rant is somehow meant to be a critique of politically correct revisionist history, I must still confess, I didn't make that connection. SA

Well I read the article and can't figure out what it's about. It goes from expressions of patriotism to immigration to an issue about "In God We Trust" on our money to respect for the flag to the ACLU. I have never heard anyone complain about expressions of US patriotism. I know some folks from other countries that are somewhat suprised at our level of national pride, because it's not as openly expressed in their home country, but have never heard them complain about ours. I live in "liberal" Massachusetts. Like we're somehow worse than other liberals. But after 9/11 the flag hung from just about every house on our street, and every highway. Many are still there everyday. I see flags and signs welcoming service men and women home nearly every day. No one is complaining about expressions of patriotism here. Unless you talk about the Patriots which gets everyone in Pittsburgh really upset for some reason. I only know of a very small minority that has an issue with the phrase,"In God We Trust" and they seem far more concerned about government intrusion on the rights of individual religious freedom than the phrase on our money. I always say Merry Christmas to fellow Christians, and Happy Hanukah to Jewish friends. If I don't know their faith I say Happy Holidays, or enjoy the Holiday. No one has ever complained to me about the use of such a phrase. I don't know of any law that says a person can't wish another person a Merry Christmas. I do, frequently at that time of year. I know of more Spanish, Portugese, Chinese, Russian, and other immigrants that can speak English than Americans that can speak any other language. I live and work in a part of the country where we have a fair number of immigrants and know and work with quite a few. I have never heard any of them complain about having to learn English to get by in the US. I have travelled overseas more than a few times and have heard Americans get quite frustrated when folks in another country don't understand English. Now some immigrants still speak with an accent and I've observed some Americans get very frustrated trying to converse with them. Like folks should learn how to speak proper American English, whatever that is. I also know northern Americans that seem to think people that speak with a Southern drawl or Western twang are somehow less intelligent and think those folks should learn proper English, whatever that is. As far as the US flag goes I don't agree with those that do not wish to show it respect. If they are an American I don't know why they wouldn't. There is much to be proud of. As an American I also know they have a right to express their opinion and to deny them that right would be unamerican. Like I said, I read it and just don't get where they guy's comming from. He's complaining about a bunch of stuff I don't encounter on a day to day basis. Is my experience so different from everyone else's? How many atheist, flag burning, non-english speaking, unpatriotic immigrants do you folks run into? SA

We do the same as www_Dan. We have also elected a separate high adventure crew leader who helps with long term planning for a high adventure activity. SA

Sounds like our CEO. SA