scoutingagain

Scoutparent, After reading through some of the last few posts, I must agree with Aquila calva. Based on the description of events provided I think your son was treated unfairly and the SM actions were a poor example of leadership to say the least. Having said that, I agree that I think your son should concentrate on his Eagle Project and advancement and if he wants, being a leader in the Venture Patrol. The Venture Patrol can do outings that are more challenging and interesting to the older scouts. The boys assigned should make the best of it. There is no reason for them to get discouraged or quit scouting. They can make the new Venture Patrol as exciting as they want to. The SM in this unit may well have not handled this situation as well as he could have. However, at this point your son and his friends would be better off embracing the new Venture patrol and making it an exciting fun patrol, rather than restitution of their former positions. The later will not likely accomplish much other than prolong any bad feelings or impressions the SM has of these boys. As I said before a Troop is not a constitutional democracy. Perhaps someday in the future your son will be working for an organization and will come across the boss's son doing something really dumb. He may think of some other way to correct the boss's son's behavior other than a "suitable punishment", even though the son may deserve such punishment and stay in his boss's good graces. SA

Scouts generally refer to our adult leaders as Mr. or Mrs. The one exception to this is the one adult leader who does not have a child in the unit, who is refered to frequently with his first name. Now to be fair to the scouts this individual started his association with the unit 10-12 years ago when he was obviously younger. However, he is now clearly an adult but his naming reference has stayed. It's just the way we have all refered to him. I'm in the camp that thinks scouts should refer to adults using the Mr., Mrs, or Ms. title. However, have not had an issue with scouts refering to 18 year olds using their first name. However, when a young adult begins pushing his mid-thirties I think it's time he be refered to as Mr. Just exactly when the transition should occur, I don't know. We don't enforce the issue it's just something that occurs. So when does someone become a Mr., Ms. or Mrs.? I can recall being refered to as Mr. at somepoint after I after I graduated college, and it took a while to realize someone was not talking to my father! SA

"And why is it, exactly, that whenever you read the "outdoors" column in the newspaper, they never talk about "killing" animals? No, in the newspaper, animals are "harvested", or "taken", or some such thing." This is obviously the bias of the liberal print media. Frankly I have no interest in hunting for sport either. Although I confess to enjoying the "sport" of catching lobsters while diving. In this activity, my experience was that nearly 50% of the legal sized lobsters we would encounter would manage to elude us. A lobster in it's natural environment had a nearly even chance to get away when confronted by a recreational diver wearing a rubber wet suit, lead weights, scuba tank, etc. So, we were thrilled to be able to eat our catch. So, if the animal had a reasonable chance of getting away, and it took some degree of skill to "harvest" it, I could understand why some might enjoy the sport. However, in my mind the situations you describe are nothing more than butchering an animal. They would seem to have no more chance of escaping their fate than a steer being brought to the slaughterhouse and I don't see what satisfaction that might bring an individual. SA

Why do some folks feel a need to turn every organization into the the bureaucratic equivalent of the Registry of Motor Vehicles? SA

Scout-parent, I'm very sorry your son has had to endure this episode in scouting. If the SM was dissatisfied with how the your son, the SPL and other patrol leaders were doing their jobs, he should have told them and told them and helped them to correct their deficiencies. If at that point the youth leadership didn't cooperate with the SM and work to improve their performance, I could understand why an SM might take such action, although it would be a rare set of circumstances. I'm afraid your son has gotten an unfortunate lesson in real life. Fscouter has listed the best resources that might be found on how a Troop is supposed to run and the roles and responsibilities of the various positions. However, keep in mind a Scout Troop is not a constitutional democracy where individual scouts, or scouters for that matter, are garuanteed certain rights. It is more like a private corporation where individuals are given rights management feels like giving them and management reserves the right to take them away without prior notice. Having said that there is a line of authority that is recommended within a unit. The references provided by Fscouter will explain it better, but the short story is ultimate authority within a unit lies with the Chartering Institutional Head. This individual usually designates a Chartered Organization Representative(COR) whose responsibility is to select leadership for the Troop including the Committee Chairperson(CC) and Scoutmaster. So how much authority does an SM have? As much as the CC and COR are willing to let them have. If the CC and COR are not that involved, the SM can pretty much do what he wants as long as he doesn't violate rules in the Guide to Safe Scouting, or other national BSA policies like changing advancement requirements... unless either the CC or COR says "Whoa, wait a minute!", kind of like a CEO, unless the Chairman of the Board and Board of Directors steps in to operate a company. Unless there is a violation of BSA National policies, a District or Unit Commisioner can offer advice but that is about it. However, I still think your son should contact your Committe Chairperson to find out what he did or didn't do to warrant his removal from his office and work to improve communications between the SM and the youth leadership of the troop so such an event doesn't happen in the future. At 16, I hope your son does not get too discouraged and stays in scouting. Good luck, SA

"The window is expensive to replace but either scout insurance or our Troop will pay. " And the 15 year old? His parents? His accomplices? Seems to me there should be some accoutability here. I'm glad no one was hurt. SA

Well, KUDU's post is most incisive and clears everything up. LOL Except he forgot to mention the hats. SA

I agree with the "Total Package" idea as well. If the Total Package is applied effectively, the lads will learn to tie knots, hike, camp, navigate etc., but somewhere along the way they will also develop confidence, character, leadership, learn to make ethical choices and they won't have necessarily had a single class in character development, leadership, or ethics. Hopefully they will have had fun and most will not realize what happened to them until after the fact. Ask your average 15 year old what they got out of their Philmont trek, and I doubt you'll hear much about ethics, character or leadership ... but it was all there. SA

Fscouter, You are right. I didn't finish the post. I was hoping someone with more eloquence than I would pick up the thread. I mentioned leadership only because that was in the title of the thread. You are correct though. The main point I was trying to make after reading some of the previous posts on skills was that if folks think we teach knots, map & compass, camping, hiking, lashings etc. so scouts can survive in the wilderness they're missing a significant point of the outdoor program. I think I understand it, having been through a strong outdoor program as a youth, and now understand how that has helped me as an adult, but frankly would have a tough time putting it into written words. SA SA

Just some thoughts on skills vrs leadership training. With today's technologies, why do so many organizations incorporate tall ship sailing in their training programs? Is the main point of learning to tie knots to join two pieces of rope together? Why do we learn to build fires with natural materials when I can go to Home Depot and buy an instant light propane campfire? Why do we learn to cook when we can easily order MREs online? Why do we have an outdoor program when the boys have just as much fun sitting inside playing video games? Why do we hike when we can ride? Why do we spend so much time in the outdoors when it's so much more comfortable inside? The point of the outdoor skills training, teaching and mastering is to learn and instill confidence, responsiblity, teamwork and leadership. They should not be viewed as a means to an end themselves. The activities are there to allow scouts to practice both the actual skills when applicable, but more importantly to practice leadership skills. Organizing a group of boys to accomplish a task, whether it's to hike from point A to B, cook a meal, gather firewood, put up a tent. SA

I have seen these devices made and used. My son's science teacher made one and used it on the school playground to demonstrate properties of gases, physics etc. All well controlled, areas roped off, designated targets, etc. For yucks I tried a search on "potato gun accident" and expected to find many postings of death and destruction caused by potato guns but honestly did not find any. I did find many websites that describe how to make these things. There are apparently two types, one used compressed air the the other uses a chemical accellerant such as hair spray. However, I am inclined to agree with those who suggest another activity that did not include the construction of a potential explosive device by scouts and operated by those scouts. I am reminded of the fatality of a scout a few years ago while firing a black powder cannon at a flag ceremony at a summer camp. The issue for me would not be range safety. As with firearms or archery I think you could set up a safe range. I just don't think one could garuantee that one of these things would not blow up in the middle of a group or near a scout, short of a QC program similar to that used in commercial nuclear reactors. I believe these devices can be made and operated safely by experienced people with appropriate skill and knowledge, however unlike firearms, I would not know where to go to find a Certified Potato Gun Instructor. I have to believe there are other activities that would be just as interesting to the scouts that did not involve the inherent danger in these devices. Rocket kits? SA

In the words of Dirty Harry(Clint Eastwood), "A man's (or woman) got to know his (or her) limitations." SA

Just a couple of observations: 1. I thought a tour permit was for unit level activities and would not be needed for a patrol level activity. (Where is BW when you need him?) If you do file a tour permit with your council indicating no adult leadership, let us know how that works? I think mine would have the Shock & Awe routine all over again. 2. You mention trail head. Be careful here. While the G2SS allows patrol activities with no adult leadership, it also states, "Safety rule of four: No fewer than four individuals (always with the minimum of two adults) go on any backcountry expedition or campout" If your scouts, are planning a "backcountry expedition" and I don't know how that's defined, adults are required. The way I read it is, if a Patrol wants to camp on it's own at a local park, campground, backlot, or scout camp, that's great. If they think their going to sling their packs on and hike 10 miles off into the backcountry, that's a different story. How do others square the two statments? SA

Would he have to return with the same minimum number of scouts? Would they have to be the same scouts he started out with? I kind of like the idea. Although I think the service project provides ample opportunitiy for the candidate to demonstrate leadership. Me, I would just be happy if the current requirements for MBs were enforced more uniformly. Or require that a minimum number of MBs were earned outside of summer camp or merit badge universities, or organized MB classes. SA

Rooster, I agree with you. This group seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. I could see how some of their literature may have crossed a line, just like the Rabbi in the article may be pushing the envelope with respect to preaching religion vrs having a religious club, but rather than address the real issue they took the easy way out and denied opportunity for everyone. Pop Quiz, What have we learned from these threads? Why can a school officially sponsor a Jewish Student Union or a Good News Bible Club, but not a Scout Unit? Just 'cause there maybe some out there wondering. SA

I tend to agree with the approach Longhaul and Hunt has suggested. The requirements for a MB are outlined in the MB pamphlets and the annual Requirements booklet. There is nothing that says a counselor cannot accept activities completed prior to the scout contacting him. However, there is nothing that obligates the counselor to accept those activities either. That is why it is highly recommended that a scout contact the counselor before starting work... to ensure what he is doing will be acceptable. We track activities in Troopmaster, and have a record scouts can show counselors to ask for credit for certain activities. This is used mostly for the Camping Merit badge, that requires 20 nights camping and some specific activities while camping. The Camping Counselors at our Summer camp and within our unit have always accepted our TroopMaster activity report as documentation of completing these activities. The issue of Blue cards is moot for us, since our District doesn't use them. As far as pushing Life scouts, I agree with the approach that says they need to want it for themselves. As Life scouts they should have enough maturity and interest to complete the journey on their own. At a recent meeting I made a point of publicly asking two of our Life scouts what requirements they needed to do to get to Eagle. They new exactly what they needed to do. Which MBs they needed, when they needed to start a project etc. I did this primarily for the benifit of scouts that had recently earned 1st class. The point was, that after 1st class, advancement was primarily the responsibility of the individual scout. The unit has a program to get new scouts through the 1st Class Rank, but after that it is up to the scout to plan and achieve his own advancement through participation in unit activities, summer camp, MB Universities(which I don't like) and individual MBs(which hardly ever happens). We have some scouts that tend to stall out at Star or Life, but that is their business. I may nag them a little here and there, but don't go around managing their advancement for them. SA SA

Wow! 11 pages and counting. I figured this thread somehow morphed into why the BSA shouldn't allow gay illegal aliens to be adult leaders, but I was wrong. I'm older than the Beav and am probably losing brain cells at a faster rate. My recollection is the 9/11 commision concluded that while there had been contacts between the government of Iraq and al-Qaeda, there was no "collaborative relationship" related to 9/11. There is no doubt Saddam supported terrorism. He publicly rewarded families of suicide bombers that attacked Israel. There was wide spread belief the he had some type of WMD probably, biological and or chemical with a desire to reconstitute his nuclear program. This belief, which generated support for the war, was promoted by this administration: George Bush: There is "no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Dick Cheney: "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." Donald Rumsfeld: "We know where they are." It wasn't just Bush that believed this. Tony Blair and the Aussie's bought into this too. The basic premise of the war, which even Wolfkowitz? acknowledged was the only thing everyone in the administration could agree on was that Saddam had WMD, was not playing straight with UN inspectors, and it was believed would have no hesitation in providing WMD to terrorist groups either for $$$ or just because he wanted to. But, some of the key conclusions of the Bush Iraqi Weapons Survey Team include: "Saddam Husayn ended the nuclear program in 1991 following the Gulf war. ISG found no evidence to suggest concerted efforts to restart the program." "While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdads desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered." "In practical terms, with the destruction of the Al Hakam facility, Iraq abandoned its ambition to obtain advanced BW weapons quickly. ISG found no direct evidence that Iraq, after 1996, had plans for a new BW program or was conducting BW-specific work for military purposes." In short, while Saddam was a really bad guy, wanted WMD, he didn't have any, and was not likely to get or produce any WMD any time soon. Yet, this administration made a judgement call, based on whatever evidence they had, to sacrifice the lives of thousands American military personnel, kill tens of thousands of Iraqis and squander 100s of billions of dollars on a war that had nothing to do with protecting the American people from an imminent threat. The question is how could we have gotten it so wrong and who's accountable for such a monumental error. One the administration doesn't even acknowledge it's made. If it wasn't a mistake, and data was deliberately spun to persuade the American people to support a war under false pretenses, it is one of the most hienous crimes commited against the American people and the world. In the mean time, Osama Bin Laden remains at large and he and his followers continue to try and figure out how to kill us and our allies. Sorry for the rant. This issue really gets to me. I consider myself an indepenant, but vote Republican more often than not. However, I will not vote for another Republican for President until the Party can demonstrate to me they can nominate a candidate that can return dignity, competence, and integrity to the White House. Not that I like Dems any better, but if all they do is screw around in the White House and not get anyone killed, that's a better alternative and a sorry state of Presidential politics. Have to go vote now. SA

Personally I think the whole concept of MBs has been perverted. They were intended for a boy to have an opportunity to work one-on-one with an adult counselor who had a particular expertise or interest in a given area. However, now with the G2SS, (and I don't think those should be abandoned) MBs are almost always taught in a classroom or group type setting, whether it's at a summer camp, a MB University, Troop Meeting or group meeting outside the Troop. Unfortunately this has largely taken away the individual initiative to set up a meeting with a counselor. Of the last few Eagle BORs I've sat in on, of over 80 MBs earned, none were earned by any of the scouts outside a group setting. Personally, if there is going to be a MB class, I don't think it matters too much if it's part of a Troop meeting or a separate meeting as long as it doesn't take over a Troop meeting. For us it is not uncommon during a period of a Troop meeting for groups of scouts to meet for a short period with an MB counselor to review progress, "discuss, show or demonstrate" a particular requirement, or set up an outside meeting. We no longer have one big MB class for most of the meeting, which was a previous practice. I'm not really sure what the anwer is, but the MB process today is far different than what was initially intended. SA

Be kind to nerds, you may work for one someday, and there's a better than even chance that nerd was once a scout. In addition to the other's comments you might want to ask your wife and her friends why the military academies place such high importance on a scouting background. I always like FOG's comment about Why don't we ever read about a (insert sport) star saving someone's life, or building a community service project? Like other units we have football players, wrestlers, band members, drama club members, etc. We have skiers, snowboarders, hunters and wildlife enthusiasts. In fact, in many cases, outside of scouting many of these boys travel in different social circles but they all have scouting in common. My experience is that scout units are unique social organizations. While they may come from different backgrounds and have different interests outside scouting, after a few years of hiking, camping, and participating in a high adventure trip or two together the scouts become close friends. Sure, the football player may not sit with the drama club member in the high school cafeteria, but he had no problem having the budding actor belay him while rock climbing this past summer or sharing a tent while backpacking for 5 days. To be honest my wife had a similar impression of scouts when my sons and I first got involved. Her turn around came after attending an Eagle Court of Honor, and walking around our council camp with our son who served as a lead scout. It was his final weekend and she went down to pick him up. Many younger scouts, camp staff and other unit leaders approached him and thanked him for all his help the past week and that they were looking forward to having him back as paid staff the next year. She said she felt like she was walking with a celebrity. Needless to say she has a completely different impression of scouting now. So...my suggestion is to have her attend an Eagle COH. SA

Well, again to get back to Mr. Alito...From what I've read about this guy I'd give him a thumbs up. Frankly I have to wonder, given his credentials and qualifications, how he ended up as second string to Ms. Meirs, but that's the President's decision. I am concerned about his nomination though. Some liberal groups are now beginning to support him. http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20051102/ts_latimes/nomineehassomeunexpectedsupporters;_ylt=AmiIaco6EajRCsrONx4a3mNuCM0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl Wonder if that may make some conservatives re-evaluate their support. SA

Just to interject a piece on immigration and the Bush team's plan to clean up after Katrina. FYI, apparently after much wailing from both Republican and Democratic legislators the Bush administration has reinstated Davis-Bacon wages for those working on government contracts, however illegal immigrants will still be allowed to work. Just your strong conservative administration looking out for average Americans. Now Americans won't have to worry about finding jobs, they can continue stay on public assistance where-ever they ended up and the companies that hire the illegal immigrants can continue to role up profits. What a country! There's no need to worry about housing because the illegal immigrants are willing to role out a bed roll just about anywhere. Hey, more power to them. I wonder if FEMA is running job fairs in Nicarugua? Heck I bet there are a lot of Iraqis out of work that would be willing to come work in the USA. See below. KATRINA'S AFTERMATH Housing woes thwart New Orleans' rebound Lack of shelter slows residents' return and fuels a labor shortage By THOMAS KOROSEC Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle HURRICANE KATRINA NEW ORLEANS - In early September, while Hurricane Katrina evacuees still were settling into shelters in Houston and elsewhere, 40-year-old Miguel Trejo moved into a rusty warehouse along the Intracoastal Waterway here and rolled his bedroll out on the concrete floor. Lured by the $13-an-hour pay, the Honduran immigrant went to work drying out flood-soaked buildings, hauling debris and cleaning mold from hospitals and government offices. "In the first weeks, I made $1,300 a week. Pretty good," Trejo said in Spanish. Trejo now is being housed by the Baton Rouge, La.-based contractor that hired him. Bunk beds, showers and food service, in the form of a taco truck from Ohio, have since been added to the dusty camp. He and thousands of other workers many itinerant Spanish-speakers who are new faces in a city that was formerly 3 percent Hispanic tolerate the harsh conditions to work here. SA

Hey, at least you have Blue Cards. Our council camp doesn't use them so cheer up! We use MB Applications which are every bit as frustrating as poorly documented Blue Cards and they use up many more trees! SA

I am in a similar situation with a Dad that wants to do Horsemanship with his son. I told him as advancement chair I had no objections but, 1. He would need to fill out an adult leader application and be listed in the District as a MB Counselor. (He has the option of restricting his counseling to only members of this Troop if he wishes.) 2. He would need to find a way to accomodate other scouts in the unit that also had an interest in the MB. He did not need to have a meeting per se, but we would make an announcement that he would be available as a counselor and it would be up to scouts to contact him an make an appointment with him, subject to the G2SS guidelines. Right now I think 6 scouts have expressed interest. 3 have actually contacted him so he is setting up a class for 3 scouts, including his son. In your situation, if the Dad is a listed MB counselor with the unit, and you have a reasonable belief the work was done, I would accept the MB. However, I would remind the Dad, as nicely as possible, as an MB counselor he has an obligation to counsel other scouts that contact him about the MB as well. SA

I can think of many good reasons to go to church and can easily believe, "A number of researchers have found striking correlations between religion and various measures of well being. For example, religious participation is correlated with lower levels of deviant behavior and better health. And, attending religious services weekly, rather than not at all, has the same effect on individuals' reported happiness as moving from the bottom to the top quartile of the income distribution." However, I do not think that one should go to church with the expectation that attendance will fatten one's wallet. SA

Just one more observation on hatchet throwing. As I mentioned we had an opportunity to do this, this past summer. This was the first time any of us in the unit had tried this. As others have indicated, getting a hatchet to stick in a target is not all that easy. We were given instructions and some suggestions, including "keep your wrist stiff and follow through." Success was determined not so much by brut strength but who listened to instructions and application of technique. One of the scouts that had been struggling on the hike and was, how can I say, had not necessarily endeared himself to the other scouts, (a bit of a loner, not the most athletic among the group). After watching several of the older scouts fail to have the the hatchet stick in the target, had his turn. (Their initial attempts were to just throw hard.) After a few snide comments from the peanut gallery this scout then scored three successful hits in a row. His stock among the other scouts immediately went up. They asked what he was doing that worked, could they watch him throw, etc. Just one of those great scouting moments. Is it a skill needed today? No, but it is a skill that made that scout on that day! Oh...for the record, I had the highest score among the adults! SA