scoutingagain

I don't know. This is happening in a Blue state. Might encourage more liberals to join scouting. Does anyone else find it ironic that there is a newspaper in Massachusetts call the Republican? SA

There is an old saying in business that goes something like, "One man's fixed cost is another man's discretionary or variable cost." Scoutldr is correct. Those members and unit leaders that have heartburn over this situation (as they should)need to contact their CORs and make their feelings known. My suggestion would be to include in the Charter agreement, a requirement that COs make up any budgetary shortfall of a council. You could bet there would be alot more interest in the management of a council by the COs if that were the case. The way the system is set up now there seems to be little or no accountability for mismanagement. SA

So why is charcoal not considered a chemical, yet propane is? To differentiate between the two requires some interpretation of the meaning of the term "chemical" as used in the G2SS. A dictionary definition from dictionary.com "n. A substance with a distinct molecular composition that is produced by or used in a chemical process." could certainly include charcoal, as well as propane or butane. Now I do suppose one could heat those TV dinners by rubbing them together or one could use a solar oven. Just continuing another lively discussion on the true meaning of the G2SS. SA

" it just evolved in a different way than British Scouting. " Kahuna, I hope your not implying there was a lack of "intelligent design" on this side of the pond. SA

The way I read this "rule" was that scout camping on their own on a patrol camp they could use propane fueled stoves and lanterns. Use of this type of equipment, while certainly not without its dangers, does not involve the tranfer of liquids and is not an open fire. I understand that propane could be considered a "chemical" and not allowed, but I do not think this rule was intended to cover the use of propane. Anyway, that's how I read it. Otherwise, there is little point in allowing scouts to camp on their own as a patrol, yet restict them to eating only cold cereal, sandwiches, sushi. steak tartar, raw oysters, uncooked fruits and vegies. Or like Woody Allen, they could take frozen TV dinners and just suck on them. SA SA

DanKroh, If you were to look at the wording of the requirements for an Eagle project, there is nothing in there that relates to the affiliation of the recipient of the project other than the project must be for the benefit of the "community" and cannot benefit the BSA or a BSA unit. "While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) The project idea must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and troop committee and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 18-927C, in meeting this requirement. " There is no official reason why an Eagle project could not be approved for a UU Church that I can think of. The unit I serve is sponsored by an open Methodist church. So open, that if the opportunity presented itself, I'm sure the Church would allow a gay marriage ceremony to take place and for all I know has. Our troop has performed numerous service projects for our sponsor and there are a couple of pending Eagle project proposals. The Church's open membership policy and the BSA's membership policy has never come up. SA

I think Trev has the right take on this. The BSA does have a religious aspect and I don't think any offense is intended by publishing religious stories related to Judeo-Christian religions. And I agree I would not be suprised if they have published stories or parables based on other religions in the past. I'm near certain they have published stories related to Native American beliefs in the past and I think if offered they would be willing to publish stories based on other faiths. Such an approach would be in keeping with the Declaration of Religious Principles. FYI, If you did try an bring a copy of Boys Life into Saudia Arabia that contained Judeo-Christian content or stories, it could be confiscated at customs and you would be fortunate if you were not prosecuted bringing banned religious materials into the Kingdom. You could tell the religious police that in the US we do not take away the Koran from Muslims entering the US, but it probably wouldn't do much good. SA

CA, My heart goes out to you, the scout and the scout's family. I will give a prayer for you and your scout. SA

Has anyone seen the DVD or film Madagascar and seen how fish are portrayed in that film? It is clearly a specieist film placing mammals above fish. There should be an organization or something to prevent this kind of specieist propaganda. If fish had feelings I'm quite sure they would be hurt by the way they are portrayed in this film. (Which, all specieist propaganda aside, I found to be quite humorous while watching with my nephews.) SA

No. I think the uniform method has significant value. However, I tend to agree with those that would like to see some uniform changes to reflect more of an outdoor organization. But I have to agree Trev & Ed on free thinkers. Sure they can be a challenge, but it's the free thinkers in our society that innovate. Any organization that squelches the free thinkers is in trouble. Our whole free market society is based on rewarding those free thinkers that come up with innovative ideas and can make something of them. SA

Rooster, My post was tongue in cheek and I hope you did not take offense, none was intended. I agree with you. I see no reason why public officials should inhibit anyones right to express themselves. Prohibitions on say wearing a Santa Claus hat to a school dance, or bringing in cookies shaped like trees or red cup cakes are absurd. But I do have concerns when you say it's about who controls our culture. It seems in this case and the ID case in the other thread that there is an element that wishes to impose their set of beliefs on others. Have a safe and happy new year all. SA

I wonder if Jesus would have a fit if He were told He could only wear a white robe? He is either busting a gut laughing at all of this or rolling His eyes or planning on mutating that Bird Flu virus and starting over again. SA

OGE, I'll try and answer your question, where do other species come from? Althought cut this poor physical scientist turned manager some slack. Your description of natural selection is accuruate for the most part as I understand it. However you only describe one form or branch of the potential evolutionary tree within a given population. There are potentially many different genetic mutations that would encourage survival within a single species. In your example some of the slower antelope may find an environment or ecololgy where there are not a lot of lions, say a swamp. But the swamp has insects and diseases. Those antelope that have thicker fur and hide make it more difficult for insects to bite and they have higher survival rates. Over the years and generations those with thicker fur and hide begin to look more like water buffalo than antelope. The fast antelop begin to look more like gazelles than antelope. Eventually the Water Buffalo and Gazelle look nothing like each other, but share a common ancestor. Very simplified but I hope you get the idea. And remember, we're talking about a phenomenon that occurs(in high end mammals at least) many, many generations and millions of years (as measured by man, as Ed pointed out I don't know how God measures time, if He measures it at all.) The fast lion? Oh it becomes a Jaguar or Cheetah maybe. There is nothing in the Theory of Evolution that is inconsistent with the existence of God, or even Christianity. It does tend to dispute the idea that the Heaven, Earth and all life were made in the time it takes the Earth to spin on it's axis 7 times. The theory of evolution is not just some abstract idea. The potential consequences of a mutation of the bird flu virus into a strain that could transmit itself between humans could be devestating to our species. Medical science considers this possibility because the evolutionary theory predicts that such a mutation is possible(although not certain). If I am a government leader who has the authority to marshal resources in research, do I consider the idea that such a mutation could occur and direct research and resources into ways to protect human beings from such a disease? Or do I assume that such a change would not be intelligent and the Intelligent Designer would not allow it to happen and not worry about it? Or maybe it is an intelligent change and I as a leader should not direct research into ways that would counter the changes imposed by the Intelligent Designer? (It is God's Will.) SA

VentureScout, I'd hang on to that one! My son, (16, Life, SPL) had only one scouting/camping related request. He asked for and recieved, a few hundred feet of good old fashioned, three strand, twisted, manilla rope to use for pioneering/lashing projects! He's been poking through the pile of downed branches I have in the backyard from past storms, looking for material to make stuff with. Better than Legos or for those who know them, an Erector set! SA

Just some comments on the decision. I havn't had time to read the whole thing but there were some interesting parts I did get to. First, by their own admission the defendant's "expert" witnesses in the case(proponents of ID) admit that ID does not meet the generally accepted definition of science.(The accepted definition may be right or wrong, but it is the definition used by the court, and agreed to by both sides. Both sides agreed to the definition of "science" as that proposed by the National Academy of Science, others in the thread have done a pretty good job of explaining what that definition basically is.) They also admitted that they would like to broaden the definition to science include ID. However they also admitted that such a definition would also include Astrology as science. Then there is the out right lieing that the defendants did under oath. After swearing before God to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, board members who imposed the curricullum requirements regarding ID, were caught lieing about their motives when material referenced in the curricullum was examined and testimony regarding board meetings was reviewed. If one reads the decision, it is pretty plain that the Judge or any Judge could come to no other decision other than the one that was reached. The defendant's own expert witnesses agreed the curricullum proposed was not science. The defendants were also caught lieing about their motives. They did not want to introduce an alternative scientific explanation for the diversity of species as they testified, they wanted to introduce religious doctrine into the science class, which is against the law. At least that is the conclusion the Judge came to after examining the testimony and evidence presented in the case. His summary of testimony and the evidence pretty well backs up his decision. If I were a proponent of ID as science, I would not be particularly proud of this group of defendants. They were caught lieing in court in a conspiracy to subvert the Constitution of the United States to teach a specific set of religious ideals to children as scientific theory. No wonder they were all voted out. So if the "Good" guys didn't win, who did? SA

What Scoutldr said! However, if your son is going to bring up this issue at a BOR, you may want to spend a little time coaching him in how to present the issue without being or appearing to be disrespectful. If it is a true BOR, the SM shouldn't be present and your son's input may provide support for those wishing to change some of the practices within the troop. The board can provide feedback to the SM without specifically identifying where the information came from. Your son sound like good future SPL material! SA

You can have a "Christmas Party" or a "Holiday Party" or a "Party, Party" as suggested by Semper Par. Just don't use Red Stars as decorations or you may be confused with being some type of Commi! See: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051220/od_nm/hungary_christmas_dc;_ylt=An4FAvO9qI1MMxUiC4zU2C0SH9EA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl SA

Be carefull...! Some of you are beginning to sound like JKHNY. We havn't heard from him in a while. I wonder if THEY found out who he is? Let's face it. If your a Scout Executive and you believe your job is to serve youth, after carefullly analyzing all the facts and financial data, you are likely to come to the conclusion the youth are better served by you keeping your job than the youth are keeping their camp. SA

I was searching Council camps that might offer winter camping when I found the Danial Webster Council's Camp Bell. Camp Bell apparently offers a camping experience designed around turn of the century scouting, around 1910. One of the activity areas under their mountain man program is described as: Hunting The archer hunts for his food, and patrols that participate in the hunting day will have the opportunity to earn the merit badge. An action archery course provides opportunities to hunt deer, bear, and wild foul in the deep woods. Practice on targets to develop accuracy. http://www.dwcbsa.org/camps/CampBell/progarea.htm Has anyone heard of this program or attended? I'm neither pro or con hunting, just have never heard of a scout camp offering hunting as an activity. SA

Since everyone is being so respectful I'm almost hesitant to post this link. However it seemed to fit into this thread the best. It includes a Holiday Greeting from the ACLU. http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20051219/cm_usatoday/afictionalwaronchristmas;_ylt=AhMPuzOtdMYqSDTa2.dVDYqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3YWFzYnA2BHNlYwM3NDI- SA

Hmmm, use the uniform method, just not with the official uniform.... So which group lives the scout law in it's everyday life. The unit that uses the uniform method, using a non-official uniform,(which as Kudu points out, seems to be within the rules of the BSA) or the unit which requires wearing of the official uniform at meetings and activities to maintain membership and achieve advancement within that unit, which is clearly against BSA policy? So what happens if everyone in a particular unit decided to wear T-shirts and BDUs while camping? We may need a rule that says BSA scouts and scouters shall not wear clothing that is not officially sanctioned by the BSA that would be similar in nature so as to give the appearance that the group is wearing a uniform. When not wearing the official BSA uniform, no more than two persons may wear pants of the same color or of similar design and appearance. No more than two persons may wear the same color shirt or a shirt of similar design and appearance. Units that choose not to wear the official BSA uniform must make every effort to appear as if they are not wearing a uniform. Units that disregard this rule shall be invited to form their own organization that may not appear to be associated with or to be or be considered similar to the BSA. Or they must wait until all members turn 14 years of age and form a Venture crew. Such a rule would save us from Kudu's uniform conspiracy. SA

"And let's not forget the biggest irony to the whole issue is that Laser Tag doesn't even use lasers! The "lasers" are actually infrared beams and the "laser gun" isn't a firearm," I've never seen this interpretation regarding the issue of Laser Tag, but frankly it makes more sense to me than the common interpretation of a prohibition against LASER Tag. Pointing even a low power targeting laser or even a presentation pointer laser at someone has the potential to do injury to the eye. Playing "LASER" Tag with toys that do not actually use lasers has no more potential to cause injury than participating in a water pistol fight or running through the woods during a game of capture the flag. If the "LASER" Tag operators renamed their venues more correctly to "IR" Tag would that make it OK? As was pointed out, no one "dies" in a "LASER" Tag game. It is not the same as paintball. Or is the issue more related to using a device to tag someone as opposed to physically having to touch them as in Capture the Flag the philosophical issue? If that's the case shouldn't all activities with devices that might be interpreted as simulated weapons be banned? This would include water pisol fights, as well as water balloon fights which are relatively common activities at some Council camps. However, if the interpretion of the rule is strictly against actual LASERs, water pistol and water balloon fights would be allowed as would "IR" tag. SA

Welcome Scoutdad2, I think you have indentified one of the main reasons adults quit. But first we need to look at why most adults join. Most adults join I think because they want to participate with their son and contribute to his scouting experience, making it the best possible experience he can have. While a child is in scouting a parent is far more willing to put up with some of the more frustrating aspects of adult leadership because they know their son is having fun, and overall a beneficial experience. Once a child ages out or quits, most adults are far less tolerant and the frustrations build to the point where burnout occurs. The list posted is a perfect example. Sure there are many adult leaders that stay in after their sons leave, and there are some that have no child or nephew in the organization. But I have been told in nearly every training class I've attended most adult leaders come from the ranks of parents. SA

So which scout shows more scout spirit? Scout A who shows up at meetings and activities when he can, in full complete correct uniform, because his unit's adult leaders require a full correct uniform to participate, advance etc., or Scout B who shows up at nearly 100% of his units activities, in a scout shirt and jeans most of the time, proudly wearing his scout shirt because he WANTS to? I'm struck by AVIDSM's observation. In a unit where there is 80% uniform wear, I can pretty much come to the conclusion that those scouts that wear the uniform do so because they want to. They know they will not be excluded if they don't. In a unit that has 100% uniform wear, I don't know if a scout wears the uniform because they want to or because an adult has told them they have to. Follow up question. If a uniform is not required to be a member, is requiring unit members to wear a uniform, unauthorized tweeking of the program? SA

To prejudge a candidate because he did not wear a uniform is wrong. However, I agree that a scout that would show up not in uniform should be prepared to answer some questions about the uniform, it's importance, and I'd go so far as to ask specifically why the candidate did not wear one. (For all I know the dry cleaners where his mother took it to be cleaned, burned down the day before. I don't know, are there legitimate religious reasons why a candidate would not wear a uniform? If so I would expect an Eagle candidate to be able to explain those reasons.) My vote would depend on how the candidate responded to those questions. Just because a candidate shows up not meeting an individual's expectation of what an Eagle Scout should look like is not a reason to not sit on a board or worse automatically reject him anymore than a board is automatically expected to approve a candidate just because a candidate shows up in full uniform, comes from a family with three generations of Eagles, 12 pages of personal recommendations, whose family just donated funds to build a new dining hall at the council camp, whose Dad is the District Executive and finished his project the day before his 18th birthday. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)