scoutingagain

Ahhh! I feel better already. I would hardly describe Romney as a Republican Kerry. Their views on the economy are nearly 180 degrees apart. What they do have in common is a willingness to reach across the policital aisle to get something done. Overall I think Romney has done a great job here in Massachusetts as Governor, keeping an overwhelmingly Democratic Legislature, that never saw a tax opportunity it didn't like, in check, yet managed to pass a comprehensive health insurance bill. I'm not sold on him fully as a President though, mainly because of his limited experience with foriegn policy. He's head and shoulders above the current holder of the office though and he'd get my vote over Kerry or Clinton. I don't know what to think about these Generals. I think the prosecution of the invasion of Iraq went well, (Although entirely unnecessary in my opinion.) but the occupation seems to have been a disaster. 47 additional US Service personnel killed this month alone so far, 3 years after the initial invasion. No one seems to be held accountable for the intelligence failures that got us into the war(and that can be interpreted in a number of ways) or the subsequent mismanagment of the post-invasion occupation. That leaves Bush himself has the buck-holder-in-chief in my opinion. Only 33 months left for this administration. SA

So Rooster7 moves on, and I miss him too, and the whole Issues & Politics sections dries up. Just to stir up the pot a little. What about all these Generals asking for Rumsfeld's head? Maybe he should step down but why didn't they say anything earlier? At first, as bad as this whole Iraq thing was to start with, it did seem to quiet down some other would be bad guys like Momar, in Libya, and Syria. Now, knowing we have very limited military options, Iran seems to be thumbing it's nose at us and the rest of the world. What are our option there? I must admit the thought of an Iranian Nuke give me real shivers. Not to mention the whole immigration thing. I read that now that there is active debate in Congress about a system that would allow illegal immigrants a path towards citizenship or at least permanent residency there is a rush on our borders. McCain, all of a sudden, appears to be the front runner for the R's in 2008. What's the Christian Right think about him now? Or has the experience with Bush sufficiently marginalized the Christian Right? Would they rather support a Morman like Romney? Is there a currently electable Christian Right candidate that is not too closely tied to the current administration? Have a Happy Easter, Passover, Spring Festival or whatever you enjoy this weekend and comeback ready to talk! If not, I may have to actually do more work during the day and get home on time and SWMBO will make me rake the lawn now that it's light out later. SA

Campcrafter, Sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what the issues are. AvidSm has pretty well laid out your options, although depending on how set in their ways the current leadership is, I would lean towards trying to reform your current unit or moving to a different unit that you feel has more opportunity for your son to experience scouting as you know it can be. I suspect there are reasons that your son is in this unit and changing is not as easy as it would sound. That leaves reforming the current unit. Ask your son, what kind of outings he and his friends would like to go on and volunteer to help them make it happen. Get him to summer camp if you can so he can see there many options in scouting, including the OA, staff possibilities, Jamborees, High Adventure activities, etc. One of the bigger mistakes I see new parents make, and I was guilty of this myself, is they do not speak up early enough. They tend to follow the established order and assume this is the way things are. If you and your son know things can be better, make suggestions, be prepared to volunteer to make them happen. Good luck. SA

"THE CAMPOUT - Last weekend was the first Troop camp out we have been on. Not much diffrent than the Cub Scout camps we did the past five years except fewer parents. The adults cooked and ran the program ( we did get some Tenderfoot requirements done). But some of the boys were quite dissapointed they didn't get to cook. The boys overall had fun but they are not new to camping. We went camping at least twice a year as Cubs since Tigers. " Well no wonder he's not as interested. How many cub scout camps will the boys go on until they get bored? Look for camping opportunities that involve activities the boys really want to do, challenge and excite them. Climbing, biking, ropes courses, backpacking, canoeing, fishing, rafting, a new camp location over the horizen, somewhere they've never been before, somewhere they think they'll never get to,(Gettysburg, Valley Forge, Colorado, Sea Base, Philmont, somwhere other than the usual 1-2hr drive to a state park they go to every year), whatever and get them to choose and plan. Something that will convince your son that Boy Scouts is more than just more Webelos style camping. If you just crossed over, hopefully you can get him to go to Summer Camp. Most camps have active programs that boys over 11 really find fun. I'll admit I've been fortunate. My son is thrilled with scouting. But at 15, he chose to be a Counselor-in-Training at Summer Camp, this year he'll be on Camp staff and was SPL this past year. The unit he's a member of tries to do at least one or two major outings a year that are of specific interest to the older scouts or go places and do things that are new to the scouts. The point is, he's not doing the same stuff he did at 11-13 years old. And it sure isn't Cub Scout camping. If the program doesn't progress with the ability and interests of the boys, they are sure to get bored and move on to other interests, and who would blame them. Good luck, SA

"Why would a women want to be a Scoutmaster? For the same reasons that a man would want to be a Scoutmaster. " That's the only answer that's needed. The degree of female involvement as overall leadership in a unit is a different issue. I have no problem with a woman who would want to be a scoutmaster and effectively serves in that capacity. However, I would also agree that I think it is important, that to develop young males as leaders, they have a chance to work with and interact with male role models. That does not mean those role models have to be the Scoutmasters. Part of developing as a male leader is being able to interact with leaders of the other gender, race, religion and frankly even sexual orientation. In fact, given that women are a majority of college and university students today, any young man growing up today that has issues with women in positions of authority is not likely to get far in their own career. SA

We'll listen to a variety of music. My choices usually run towards classic country, folk, classic rock, 60's 70's oldies. I will let the boys pop in their own stuff now and then and am sometimes suprised at what comes out. Some of their stuff recently has included Charlie Daniels, older pre-disco Bee Gees, Johnny Cash, and the Band. They are sometimes suprised when I've played the "original" versions of certain songs they thought we're from their era. These have included songs from the Byrds, Clapton, "American Woman", "American Pie". I confess to frequent cases of Deja Vu,(Not the CSNY song) when certain songs come on the radio. I can vividly remember driving to/from scout outings listening to "Peace Train" by Cat Stevens, Motown hits, the Doors, the Association, the Beatles, Paul Revere & the Raiders, the Hollies, Dylan, Beach Boys, the Turtles, Simon & Garfunkel, etc. Later would come Jethro Tull, Yes, the Who, Led Zep, Clapton, the Moody Blues, Greatful Dead, CSNY, Alice Cooper, CCR, James Taylor, Mountain. Although there was at least one summer "Country Roads" by John Denver, was played every other song on AM radio. Funny how music sets a timeline in our lives. I like the audiobook idea though. SA

Oldsm, "They were looking primarily at doing another section in southwestern Massachusetts (south of the Mass Tpk)." If they want to do this, they could easily get a 30 miler in with a loop that included the Taconic Trail along the MA, NY Border, and the Mt. Frissel trail that connects with the AT. See the trail map on the Washington State Forest, MA site. http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/trails/mt-washington800.gif And as I said there a several points that come close to areas of vehicle access where you could exchange adults and pick-up food at mid-trek. There are plenty of streams for water, but it needs to be purified. The hiking is not as challenging as the White Mountains or Philmont, but is quite scenic. Elevation changes are mostly under 1000' and the peaks are in the 2400' foot range. We found the trails to be relatively well marked. SA They could also include trails that run further south into CT. The Taconic Trail goes all the way to Mt. Greylock. The AMC has detailed topo maps available of this entire area. I hope to do a more extended hike myself in the area. SA

Funny you should ask... We just completed the second 15 mile, two night hike requirement this past weekend with a group of three scouts, right near your neck of the woods. In this case, the backpackers met up with our new scouts on the second night at a primitive campsite that was about a mile hike from the trail access parking lot. I had to leave that night and hiked the final mile out myself. (I had a FMS radio, and radioed back to the group when I reached my car.) The final night the backpackers still had three adults with them, one that had hiked the previous night and day with them, and two that hiked in with our younger scouts. We did this hike in Washington State Forest in Southeastern Mass. The State Forest borders CT, and NY and the combined trail systems intermingal with the Appalachian Trail and several rural road crossings. I believe with a little planning you could find access, eggress points in this area where adults could change in and out of the crew. It is a nice area to hike, with long sweeping views of the Hudson valley and Berkshires, waterfalls, and streams. I did find one 5 day itinerary on the net in this area, but have not hiked it. It is not a particularly challenging itinerary and was posted on a site for beginning backpackers. However it describes the area and identify's possible bail-out points, where you could concievably change out adults. In addition to the below, search Brace Mountain, Mount Alander, Bish Bash Falls. There is an extensive trail network in this area where you could meet folks in a vehicle and continue on the trail. Good luck, SA Check out: Saturday, October 8, 2005 Drive to CT route 341 in Kent, just west of the Housatonic River, storing final non-essential items in the car. (Thieves take note!) Begin Hiking, elevation 400'. Hike 7.0 Miles to Stewart Hollow Brook Lean-To, elevation 400'. Camp There are several good views in the hilly section that includes St. John's Ledges. The second half of today's hike is very flat and follows the Housatonic River. Possible bailout: Skiff Mountain Rd. Sunday, October 9, 2005 Hike 6.6 miles, to Caesar Brook Campsite. The first half of the day is flat, the second half is hilly, surpassing 1000' twice (Silver Hill, Pine Knob, with views at both) Camp at Caesar Brook Campsite, elevation 800'. Total mileage: 13.6 Cornwall Bridge Possible bailout: Cornwall Bridge (CT route 4) Monday, October 10, 2005 Hike 8.6 miles to Belter's Campsite. Quite hilly, with views at Housatonic State Forest, Mt. Easter, and Sharon Mtn. Camp at Belter's Campsite, elevation 750'. Total mileage: 22.2 Possible bailout: West Cornwall Rd. Tuesday, October 11, 2005 Hike 7.1 miles to Limestone Spring Blue-Blaze Trail. Hike .5 miles down to Limestone Spring Lean-To Views at Belter's Bump The first half of today's hike is downhill or flat. The second half climbs Prospect Mtn. View from Prospect Mountain Camp at Limestone Spring Lean-To, elevation 1000'. Total mileage: 29.8 Limestone Spring Lean-To Possible bailouts: US routes 7 & 112, or iron bridge in Amesville Wednesday, October 12, 2005 Hike .5 miles back up to the Appalachian Trail. Hike 8.1 miles to Ball Brook. Views at Rand's View, Billy's View, Lion's Head, North Outlook. Camp in group campsite just South of Ball Brook, elevation 1700'. Total mileage: 38.4 Possible bailout: CT route 41, Salisbury Thursday, October 13, 2005 Hike 7.6 miles to Race Brook Falls Trail. Hike .5 miles down to Race Brook Falls Campsite Hike over Bear Mountain, elevation 2316', highest summit completely within the State of Connecticut. Cross over into Massachusetts Views at Bear Mountain Lookout, Bear Rock Falls, Mt. Race, Race Brook Falls. Camp at Race Brook Falls Campsite, elevation 1500'. Total mileage: 46.5 Possible bailout: No good options. Back to CT route 41 via Undermountain Trail or Paradise Lane Trail Friday, October 14, 2005 Hike .5 miles back up to the Appalachian Trail. Hike 6.2 miles to MA route 41 at April Hill Farm, elevation 750'. Total mileage: 53.2 Hike over Mt. Everett, elevation 2602', the highest point in this hike. Mt. Everett Possible bailout: Jug End Rd. Ride back to hotel/motel/B&B in Great Barrington, MA (TBD). Pick up car(s) from trailhead.

Sorry for the dreaded double post. I don't think Eamonn was thinking of hats & white sheets. Although I suspect there were a number of un-scoutlike activities involved in the gathering I believe he may have referred to. My question was somewhat rhetorical. The answer is, yes. SA

So WHO gathered outside New York (City)? SA

So WHO gathered outside New York (City)? SA

I, for another will be sincerely sorry to see you go. The forum will be less with the loss of your participation. I hope you re-consider. If that is your decision, best of luck to you and your family. SA

I would agree this sounds like it was handled poorly based on the information provided. However, keep in mind the Troop was fully within it's right's to expell the scout (from the Troop, not scouting.) Contrary to the belief of some there is no right of due process with respect to unit membership for scouts or scouters. Doesn't mean it's right, that's just the way it is. My suggestion would be if you feel this scout was treated unfairly, would be to offer to write a letter of clarification or recommendation for him if he wanted to join another troop, if that's possible. Heck, at one point in the life of the unit I serve, if we expelled every scout that threatened to beat up someone we would have expelled a third of the unit, including a couple that eventually made Eagle Scout. Even had one case earlier this year where one scout in fact did engage another scout in some hitting and shoving. At a scout meeting no less. Both were sat down, explained the expectations of scout behavior and further behavior along the lines of what they had done could include expulsion. No problems since. The mother of one of the scouts involved called the police and wanted to press assault charges on an 11 year old. The police told her to chillout, politely of course. In this day and age, I would not take rumors of a threat lightly, but they should be investigated to determine how valid the threat is. Did the threat occurr? Were they just words or did the individual intend to carryout the threat? Sorry to hear about this. Seems like it could have been handled better. BTW Faltertum, welcome to the Forums. SA

Had to think about it. It's hard to come up with the top 3, but here goes. 1. Philmont as a youth. Summer of 1970. 2. 1st campout as a Boy Scout. No new scout patrol, a good old fashioned integrated patrol with an 8th grader as PL who I, as an 11 year old thought was cool. Patrol cooking over wood fires, old style canvas tents, snipe hunts, etc. Fall of '67? 3. Adult leader of a crew to High Knoll with a group a scouts & scouters from the unit I currently serve with my son elected as youth crew leader. Honorable mention: Youth trips to Washington D.C. & Valley Forge. Earning Eagle Scout. SPL at summer camp. As an adult; Having son elected SPL. Whitewater rafting and trips to Gettysburg. SA

Penn & Teller are hardly the first comedians to take a few shots at Boy Scouts. As an institution, the BSA has been parodied by many, including Saturday Night Live, The Flintsones, Jetsons & Simpsons and a host of others. The usual scenario is a bumbling overly zealous adult leader over-run or saved by his young charges. If P&T introduces politics into their routine it may be a different twist. Look at it this way. Other than Youth baseball leagues, I can't think of another youth organization that gets as much comedic media attention. Maybe this is in the category of there's no such thing as bad publicity. We'll have to see the show. Me, I can't tear myself away from an episode of 24 Hours for this. Let me know how it turns out. SA

My thoughts on ketchup. 1. If you are buying the large 64oz. size bottles you must be using the Troop method and are clearly subverting one of the 8 methods of scouting. 2. The appropriate size bottle of ketchup for a patrol is the standard 14 oz. bottle selling for around $1.25. If you are buying anything other than this size bottle you are not using the Patrol Method properly and need to be re-trained. 3. If there is a portion of the 14oz. left after a weekend of camping with a patrol of 6 or more scouts, menu selection should be modified for the next campout so that a full 14 oz. is used in one weekend campout. Ketchup can be used in a wide variety of foods and menus and if your not using the full 14 oz. your patrol is not getting the full nutritional value of this essential food. Think anti-oxidants. 4. Heinz ketchup is not approved for use by the BSA due to the fact it has the same name as the wife of a certain Senator that comes from a state that allows gay people to marry which is not providing a good role model for scouts. 5. Individual packets should only be used in the Lone Scout program. SA

Just out of curiosity ... how many folks out there work for an organization where if more than a half dozen of so key executives were to be found in violation of either the law or internal company ethics policies, to the point where the information is published in local and or national news outlets, would have their current chief executive still in place? SA

OK, I generally agree with most of what has been said so far. Especially the part about not envying OneHour's position. I also am not an expert. But so far the comments have generally addressed what to do the next time the situation arises. My suggestion is to take some discreet steps to try and avoid a next time. Either talk to the SPL and ask him if there is anyone else that can give him a ride home in the future, or tell him you can drive him home from meetings. But, if the same situation were to arise again, I would agree, do not let her drive off. Offer to take her and her son home or call a cab. If she refuses, tell her you will notify the police. If she still leaves in what you suspect is an impaired state, call the police. Good luck. I know when we agree to the "one hour a week" thing most of us don't sign on for some of the extra baggage that comes with it. I thought I'd work with scouts on stuff like rank advancement, outdoor skills and activities and stuff like that. No one said anything about being family counselors, personality conflicts, youth protective services counselor, guidance counselor, etc. That must have been in the fine print somewhere. SA

BE, You may be interested in this approach to a career change: "OTTAWA (Reuters) - A bored Canadian bureaucrat fed up with office drudgery is seeking C$1 million ($860,000) in donations so he can quit his job and "do something that makes a difference in my life and the lives of others." The unnamed man, who claims to have worked for a large civil service organization for over 10 years, has set up a Web site -- saveabureaucrat.com -- on which he explains he is desperate to escape his job. "After a while it starts to sap the energy and soul out of you and you realize that you have become a true bureaucrat ... I feel like an old curmudgeon frustrated by having to deal with paper being passed around at a snail's pace," he writes. "Retirement will free up my time for volunteer activities such as tutoring children and counseling people who are going through rough patches in their life. On a daily basis I will be a much more pleasant person to be around," he adds. Despite promising not to spend donations on "Rolls-Royce cars, 10 bedroom houses, airplanes," the bored civil servant has quite a way to go. As of Wednesday morning, five sympathetic souls had sent in a total of just C$59.26." SA

Brent, My post was cut and pasted from sourcewatch, an independant media watchdog group. There are articles there on both Democratic and Republican campaigns. I have no doubt if I searched the site I could find a Democratic campaign of equal repulsiveness. That does not excuse the role of the Republicans in this campaign. I do not dispute Mr. Cleland lost fair and square. My issue is the manner in which the Republican Party chose to campaign against him. If local constituents had such different views than Mr. Clelands, why couldn't the Republican Party run informational adds highlighting those differences instead of an add that compared a wounded war veteran who volunteered for combat to Saddam Hussein. That's not how I would show respect to the veterans of this country from either party. It's one thing to disagree with a man's politics and choose not to vote for him. It's quite another to run an ad such as the one described in the article. I am not arguing Mr. Cleland's politics. I pointing out how the Republicans chose to campaign against a man who "volunteered for one last mission" and was severly wounded in defense of his country. SA

From sourcewatch: "Max Cleland lost the 2002 general election to Republican Saxby Chambliss. A key element in that loss was a negative ad that challenged Cleland's votes in Congress on the formation of the Department of Homeland Security. The text of the ad is as follows: "As America faces terrorists and extremist dictators, Max Cleland runs television ads claiming he has the courage to lead. "He says he supports President Bush at every opportunity, but that's not the truth." "Since July, Max Cleland voted against President Bush's vital homeland security efforts 11 times." "But the record proves, Max Cleland is just misleading." The issue in 2002 was civil service protections for Homeland Security employees, which Bush opposed and Cleland supported. The ad failed to point out that Cleland supported the creation of a Department of Homeland Security before Bush did. Cleland originally co-sponsored the enabling legislation and eventually supported it, but as the bill moved through Congress, he cast a number of votes against it in hopes of getting a better bill. The Republican attack ads made it look as though Cleland was voting against Homeland Security itself, and one TV ad morphed Cleland's face into Saddam Hussein's while suggesting that Cleland was indifferent to the safety of the American people. This ad was so disgusting that Republican Sens. Hagel and McCain both protested it] In February 2004, "vitriolic right-wing ideologue" Ann Coulter wrote that Cleland should not be referred to as a war hero, as he had lost his limbs in a routine non-combat misssion. Regardless of the exact circumstances of the explosion, or its non-relation to the prior battles for which the stars were given, it is worth noting that Cleland was awarded a Silver Star "for gallantry in action" at the battle of Khe Sanh. " SA

If you disagree with Mr. Clelands politics that's fine. Heck I disagree with his politics. I disagree with most of Kerry's political positions and have only voted for him once in my whole life, the same number of times I've voted for George Bush. However, I would never question Kerry or Cleland's patriotism or their commitment to this country. Which is what the Republican Party did in their campaign against Cleland. Any man (or woman) who voluntarily enters the service with the intent of serving in a combat is putting their life on the line for their country and deserves the respect and gratitude of their fellow citizens. In my mind their actions are heroic. I compare these actions to those who used every deferment possible or those that volunteered for domestic non-combat roles and then asked for early discharge from their commitment. SA

I agree rank advancement should reflect the actual completion of the requirements. However, the issue of holding the adults accountable is somewhat problematic from a practical standpoint. For example, the SM who signs off on a POR when the scout has done nothing. The Board can tell the scout what he needs to do to complete the requirement if they wish and delay advancement. The scout is held accountable for his actions or in this case in action. There is a consequence. What consequence should the Board impose on the SM? A volunteer, who spends his time scouting in good faith trying to help with the boys? Suspend his tenure as SM for 3 months? or the time is takes the boy to complete his requirement? If so, do you have another adult, ready, willing and available to commit the same amount of time and dedication the SM does? Will the SM comeback after being suspended? For better or worse advancement decisions are made by volunteers and as a practical matter, disciplining volunteers, most of whom really are, working in good faith, is just not that easy. I admit I don't have an answer, but will be listening. SA

"The patriot act; wiretapping with out a warrant; and watching antiwar protesters, environmental groups and religious organizations are all small step toward restricting freedom. Once these are accepted what is next? " Secret prisons in foreign countries? Those that currently support the actions of this administration with respect to any of these actions should ask themselves, are they willing let a Hillary Clinton administration wield the same authority? SA

I have to share the thought of One Hour. While I have served as Asst. Den Leader, Adv. Chairperson and currently as Committee Chair. I've derived the most satisfaction as a parent watching my son grow from a chubby grade school boy into a confident, solid, young leader. Sure, I've watched this tranformation in other boys as well, and that's satisfying too, but I will not have another chance to observe my own son go through this process again. SA