scoutingagain

I'll add one more for backpacking. LAW #26 - The servings per package of pre-packaged backpacking meals will always come in quantities of n-1, where n = the number of persons in the party. i.e. For a group of 5, all meals will be packaged to serve 4, for a group of 3, all meals will be packaged to serve 2, etc., requiring the group pack nearly twice as much as needed. However this Law helps to counter the effect of LAW #19. LAW #27 - The amount of stove fuel carried on any trip is always sufficient for n - 1 days, no matter how much fuel is carried or how many days a trip lasts. SA

I would say the Red Dog case is a case of retribution and his situation and the whole camp sale has been discussed at length in another thread. The bone of contention related to this thread though is did he express his "disagreement in a rational and courtious way?" Some might argue filing a lawsuit against the BSA is not "working within the system" nor rational or courtious to address his particular grievance. Others would argue he is simply using his constitutional right to address grievances throught the courts. Personally I don't see where kicking a dedicated volunteer out of the organization for actions other than for youth protection issues accomplishes much for the council. Seems rather petty to me. SA

Well, it would appear the boys in this unit did get a lesson regarding religious diversity and respect for the beliefs of others. Unfortunately is does not appear to be consistent with the 12th Point of the Scout Law. I would hope the Scoutmaster would have been able to explain this point to the Committee. Our unit is sponsored by a UMC, and those boys, and others of their faith, are welcome to join. SA

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Unfortunately, these truths are not as self-evident to everyone as we might hope. SA

Did someone mention the evils of..Pool? Pool halls? Well, I can't help myself.. Well, ya got trouble, my friend. Right here, I say trouble right here in River City Why, sure, I'm a billiard player Certainly mighty proud to say, I'm always mighty proud to say it I consider the hours I spend with a cue in my hand are golden Help you cultivate horse sense and a cool head and a keen eye Didja ever take and try to give an iron clad leave to yourself from a three-rail billiard shot? But just as I say it takes judgement, brains and maturity to score in a balk-line game I say that any boob can take and shove a ball in a pocket And I call that sloth; the first big step on the road to the depths of degreda- I say, first- medicinal wine from a teaspoon, then beer from a bottle And the next thing you know your son is playin' for money in a pinchback suit And listenin' to some big out-o'-town jasper hear him tell about horserace gamblin' Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they set down right on the horse Like to see some stuck up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil, well I should say Now, folks, let me show you what I mean You've got one, two, three, four, five, six pockets in a table Pockets that mark the difference between a gentleman and a bum With a capital 'B' and that rhymes with 'P' and that stands for 'pool' And all week long, your River City youth'll be fritterin' away I say, your young men'll be fritterin' Fritterin' away their noontime, suppertime, choretime, too Hit the ball in the pocket never mind gettin' dandelions pulled or the screen door patched or the beefsteak pounded Never mind pumpin' any water 'til your parents are caught with a cistern empty on a Saturday night and that's trouble Oh, ya got lots and lotsa trouble I'm thinkin' of the kids in the knickerbockers, shirttailed young ones peekin' in the pool hall window after school Ya got trouble, folks, right here in River City with a capital 'T' and that rhymes with 'P' and that stands for 'pool' Now I know all you folks are the right kind of parents I'm gonna be perfectly frank Would you like to know what kind of conversation goes on while they're loafin' around that hall? They'll be tryin' out Bevo, tryin' out Cubebs, tryin' out tailor-mades like cigarette fiends And braggin' all about how they're gonna cover up a tell-tale breath with Sen-Sen Now one fine night they leave the pool hall headin' for the dance at the Armory Libertine men and scarlet women and ragtime Shameless music that'll grab your son, your daughter into the arms of a jungle animal instinct- massteria! Friends, the idle brain is the devil's playground, trouble! Townspeople: Oh, we got trouble Harold: Right here in River City Townspeople: Right here in River City Harold: With a capital 'T' and that rhymes with 'P' and that stands for 'pool' Townspeople: That stands for pool Harold: We surely got trouble Townspeople: We surely got trouble Harold: Right here in River City Townspeople: Right here Harold: Gotta figure out a way to keep the young ones moral after school Townspeople: Trouble, trouble, trouble... Harold: Mothers of River City, heed this warning before it's too late Watch for the tell-tale signs of corruption The minute your son leaves the house does he rebuckle his knickerbockers below the knee? Is there a nicotine stain on his index finger? A dime novel hidden in the corncrib? Is he starting to memorize jokes from Cap'n Billy's Whizbang? Are certain words creeping into his conversation? Words like- swell? And- 'so's your old man'? Well if so, my friends Ya got trouble Townspeople: Oh, we got trouble Harold: Right here in River City Townspeople: Right here in River City Harold: With a capital 'T' and that rhymes with 'P' and that stands for 'pool' Townspeople: That stands for pool Harold: We've surely got trouble Townspeople: We surely got trouble Harold: Right here in River City Townspeople: Right here Harold: Remember the Maine, Plymouth Rock and the Golden Rule? Oho, we got trouble We're in terrible, terrible trouble That game with the fifteen numbered balls is the devil's tool Townspeople: Devil's tool Harold: Yes, we've got trouble, trouble, trouble Townspeople: Oh, yes, we got trouble here, we got big, big trouble Harold: With a 'T' Townspeople: With a capital 'T' Harold: And that rhymes with 'P' Townspeople: That rhymes with 'P' Harold: And that stands for pool Townspeople: That stands for pool Forget the band, we need a scout troop! Keep those boys out'a pool halls and the like. SA

Our council offers free rank badges for participation in FOS and Popcorn Sales at some modest level of sales volume. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Well once Patrick gets his act cleaned up he can run for President on the same reformed drug addict, alcoholic, son of a wealthy New England Family ticket GWB ran on. SA

As I said, if folks want to sing the Star Spangled Banner in Spanish or any other language, that fine by me. Their choice. I prefer the English version. But I was thinking,(Dangerous I know.) Semper has done tremendous public service by posting the Mexican Anthem in English. I think that all those who really have an issue with a Spanish version of the US Anthem, should infiltrate Mexico or another Central American country of their choice and sing their National Anthems in English. That would show 'em! I think that would be a great project for the Minuteman project. Turn about's fair play. SA SA

I agree with Ed. Brown building, green roof, red doors, accented with red trim around the windows, and maybe a flower holder underneath. SA

Probably the second item, Trev good buddy. I wouldn't have a problem and EagleinKY has a good idea with respect to target shooting. Another thought provoking moment might be a short discussion on why paintball is not an approved activity, eventhough it may not be anymore dangerous than, climbing, rafting, skiing, or other activities that are allowed by the BSA. SA

After reading much of the thread, and yes, hello again to our friend NJ, I find myself agreeing with OGE. Folks are free to translate and listen to the US National Anthem in any language they want. However, for me English is most preferred. I recall the scene in Casablanca, where the Germans are singing and Rick asks the bar band, to strike up La Marseillaise. Now the entire movie is in English, for American audiences, but when the actors in the scene sing La Marseillaise, they all sing in French. I don't think the scene would have the same impact if they had sung the French National Anthem in English, even though the rest of the film is in English and most of us Americans who have seen the movie, don't understand French. I would have the same reaction to the Star Bangled Banner sung in a language other than English. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Our experience has been that summer camp is the highlight of the scouting year. Those Webelos that crossover in the spring and attend summer camp with the Troop seem to be the ones that are more likely to stay with the troop. Why? Can't say for sure. It may be that those that are really interested in camping and joining the Troop, sign up for summer camp and stay. It may be that those who are exposed to summer camp, find out early on how much fun scouting can be, bond with the troop and are willing to put up with a rainy weekend outing or a Troop meeting that is less organized than they are used to in Cub Scouts. While we have found a few, 10-11 year olds that are not ready for a week away from home, they are the exception. Most are more than ready and welcome the adventure. It is the parents that are more often not ready to let them go for a week. We are fortunate that our summer camp is only about 40 minutes away and occaisonally a youth sick parent is welcome to come down mid week and join the troop for an evening to see how their son is doing. A higher percentage of our first year summer campers will have a parent stay at camp a few nights as part of the adult contingent. About once every other year we have a new scout that becomes really homesick. In those cases we usually discourage parental contact and encourage the scout to focus on camp activities which usually works. By Wednesday, they are usually over any homesickness. Now having noted the above, I will also add our summer camp has a dining hall, with pretty good food, so first year campers are not faced with the challenge of cooking their own food, which helps with their assimilation to camp. As far when it is appropriate for a child to attend overnight camp, that is a parental decision based on their knowledge of their child. In our area there are church and Y camps that start overnight summer camps at age 8 and there are hundreds of boys and girls that seem to survive that experience. SA

I tend to agree with klflintoff. There are many factors involved. I dont' agree with the coolness factor though. Scouting hasn't been "cool" probably since 1965. Other factors do include competing activities. When I was a youngster, the only organized youth sports available were Little League Baseball and Pop Warner Football and an in town recreational basketball leage, where we didn't even get uniforms. Remember shirts & skins? They were also one season sports with minimal practice sessions. Now, not only are there more youth sports starting at younger ages,(Lacrosse, Soccer, Hockey, Tennis, Golf, Martial Arts, etc.)many of them run year round, and have practices several days a week. Add that to parents who work more hours generally than our parents did and generally take more time to get to & from work and you get a smaller pool of potential adult leaders. A smaller pool will among other things reduce the availability of quality leaders that might have helped run a better scouting program, providing a greater incentive for scouts to join and stay in scouting. In my own situation, it's only been the last 5-6 years in my career that I have been able to commit the kind of time I can to scouting as an adult leader. The first 15 - 20 years of my career I was just not in a position where I had the time to do so. There are many factors, and I think the religious/political issues are only one of them. SA

Well, they do stop most youth outdoor sports if it rains. But that doesn't stop the risk of broken limbs or other injuries that are an inherent risk to the activity. But, I think OGE and Fscouter have it right. Let them know there are risks, there are ways to protect ourselves from those risks and we know and use them, but there are no garuantees. If a parent is really that risk averse, scouting may not be the best activity for their son. There are risks in what we do and we manage them as best we can. SA

Well, thankfully they continue to save us from the inherent dangers of Laser Tag and it looks like they have done nothing to clarify the issue of whether the phrase "may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants." means smoking is prohibited or if adult leaders have the option of not allowing the use of tobacco products. SA

"By nature boys are basically lazy and put off lesser fun priorities until last. " And what percentage of female spouses of adult male scouters would make the same observation about their husband? SA

Yellow-Hammer, Let me try and respond to what I believe was a reasoned post adn unfortunately you are probably correct, some of the dissent here in the US probably does aid the enemy. However, while Gern's post may have appeared cavalier, it is none the less true. Being in the armed services of a free democracy means having to fight at times when segments of the public will be allowed to voice their opinion, that at times, may give aid and comfort to the enemy. We have not yet suspended our constitution. The right to speak freely is one of our most cherished liberties and those who disagree with the war and it's reasons have every right to express that opinion. They might argue they are the true patriots, voicing their dissatisfaction with the cavalier sacrifice of our volunteer armed services personnel for a conflict of our leaders choosing based on faulty intelligence at best and at worst based on deliberate manipulation of information to support a policy they had already decided upon. If those that dissent are denied that right and are not allowed to express that opinion, those fighting truely are wasting their time. There could be no greater insult to those that volunteer to protect our way of life or greater support and comfort to our enemies than to allow those freedoms so many have fought and died for to be lost. from Oliver Wendell Holmes: "If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought - not free thought for those who agree with us, but freedom for the thought that we hate." SA

Vicki, This is just a suggestion. But I would be less concerned about teaching adults the details of proper patch and insignia placement than teaching them ways to promote uniform wear among their units. At any large gathering of scouts in my area, or that I've seen in the Northeast, a significant percentage of scouts and scouters are either not wearing a uniform, or wearing only a uniform shirt(with non-BSA pants, frequently bluejeans). I don't bother to notice if a rank patch is not centered on a pocket or if a position of responsiblity patch is in the wrong place. Have a brainstorming session on how to motivate scouts to wear a full and complete uniform because they WANT to, not because a curmudgeon of a scoutmaster or advancement chairperson won't sign them off for scout spirit for their next advancement. If you come up with any really good ideas, get back to us. Because beyond wearing my own full and complete uniform as an example, I'm having mixed results with the unit I serve. SA

While I agree the Pack request is probably a bit on the nervy side, I would go with LongHaul's approach. But, make absolutely sure, all the parents and Webelos know they are free to join any troop they want and no one else can direct them to join a unit they don't want to. Let them know that your troop would love to have them as members and you promise them a great scouting experience. Hand out scout applications with your unit number filled in. Don't discuss Troop A at all. While the Pack's requests are out of line, and you would have every reason to refuse them, that course will ensure the feud continues another scout generation. Good Luck, SA

Wow. Talk about making something that should be simple more complicated than it needs to be. GS-CS, I'm very sorry to hear you would drop out of scouting unless you can officially "merge" your pack with the other. My suggestion is to talk to the CM or CC of Pack B and ask if they are accepting new members. If they are, ask for 10 applications and hand them out to the members of your current pack. Let them know you will be joining the other pack and would love to have them join as well. Find out if Pack B has any summer activities you can participate in. As noted, however, any money you have from your current pack will revert to the Chartered Organization. So, have one last bash or outing with the remaining funds before you decide to quit. That is all you need to do. What the Chartered Organization does with the flags, the charter or whoever else remains with the current pack is up to them. You do not need to be concerned about it. Either you end up with a sufficient number of families from your old pack in Pack B or you don't. The only "agreement" you need to concern yourself with is if Pack B is will to accept the membership applications or not. You do not need any agreement from a District, a Council, A Unit Commissioner or anyone else. I can't see how a Pack that wants to grow and accepts new members jeapordizes itself in anyway. Everything else is someone else's concern, you don't have to worry about it. Good Luck and I hope things work out. SA

I tend to agree with the big E on the issue of rules. One thing is if you have a rule, you have to have a consequence for breaking it or it doesn't seem like it's much of a rule. So what are some of the consequences for breaking the "rules". For those that ban soda, pop, etc. What are the consequnces for a scout found to have snuck a contraband can of cola? Does a can of flavored iced tea, lemonade or flavored immitation juice drink count or does the ban only include carbonated beverages? What about an individual bottle of lemonade? Or non-carbonated "energy" drinks? Does flavored carbonated mineral water count as a soda? Do you have specific lists of products and container types that are banned? Do juice boxes count? Do only caffienated beverages count? If a scout brought a non-caffienated cola that had been allowed to go flat, would that be banned? Do the same penalties apply to all of the above or is there a graduated penalty system based on the amount of beverage, container type, caffiene, sugar, or volume of the contraband item? If uniforms are not mandatory under the National BSA program, do you refuse participation to scouts that show up not in uniform? If you do, on what basis do you deny participation? Or do you not consider your unit not part of the BSA for purposes of mandatory uniform wear? What are the consequences for picking up a stick? When is a stick not a stick? If a scout picks up a long slender piece of wood and ties a string and a fish hook to it is it still a stick? If he is using it to hit tennis balls in an adhock game of home run derby, is it still a stick? Do the rules only apply to scouts or are there exceptions for adults? Parents? If you list rules, please also list exceptions and consequences. Just asking? SA

Across the part that covers the "bunchiness". Seriously, I'm pretty sure the natural modesty of most adolescent boys would keep them from wearing Speedo style swim shorts. I've never noticed them at our camp, or any camp I've visited. Not that I'm looking for them! However, since I now know bikinis are forbidden apparel, I will keep an eye out for them and have the offender turned over to the waterfront uniform police to have the offending item removed...er replaced. SA

"Those generals, in my opinion, are running for SecDef under Hilary or Kerry" That may be, but I doubt you'll see many folks, Democrats or Republicans running on a platform that supports the way the decision to go to war was made or the way it has been prosecuted after the invasion. I tend to agree though, if these officers felt as strongly as they claim to about the management of the war, a resignation earlier and a statement would have been far more powerful and credible. The really sad thing is that this issue will be a major issue in the next Presidential election, still 2 1/2 years away. SA

I have one parent who is constantly asking about her son's advancement status, what does he need to do to achieve the next rank etc. For the most part I politely answer her questions. A parent has a right to know where their scout stands. However, when she has questions about MB requirements, paperwork, etc., I politely tell her, "Johnny should call so&so, the MB counselor and find out. I can give him the phone number at the next meeting." I know she gets frustrated with me, but while she is entitled to know where her son stands, she is not entitled to do the basic work involved with getting the MB. I'm impressed with her interest in her son's scout career, but would like to see her encourage her son to do more for himself. I don't know if we've had any parent "force" their son to earn Eagle by witholding a drivers license. I'm not sure that would work. Ultimately, I agree, advancement has to be something the boy wants to do or it won't get done. That doesn't mean a scout might not need to be prodded along a little, but they need to do the work. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Check out Greenbelt National Park, http://www.nps.gov/gree/ . Probably less than a couple of hours from where you are. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)