scoutingagain

"Yes, challenging but I have to ask, why would a parent want to hang around a troop of 11- 13 year olds either? What is the difference? " Eagledad, there's a hugh difference and your moniker says it all. The vast majority of adults involved with scouting, do so because they are a parent, or were a parent of a scout. The connection between a parent and son, and the sense of obligation to youth, is far different than 16 - 18 year old young men, who do not have a father/son or even sibling connection to the younger members of a troop. These young men are not necessarily slackers, they just have diffent interests and maturity levels. What % of 16 - 18 year old boys, given a choice, would choose to hang around 11 - 13 year old boys, doing activities age appropriate for 11 - 13 year olds, activities the older boys have probably done several times before, versus hanging out with their peers, both girls and boys, doing activities appropriate for their older age group, acitivities they may not have done before or find more challenging? Don't get me wrong. I have great admiration for those older scouts that do stay connected with their troops and mentor younger scouts. But how many do it because it's fun, versus a sense of obligation? In my son's case, he finds the commardarie of the other counselors at camp fun. Unfortuately, that part is missing in our troop. I just can understand how a 16 - 18 year old may have different interests than 11 - 13 year old boys and choose to be active in a crew instead of a troop and given that reality, one alternative may be to groom youth leadership at a lower age. Is there any reason a troop cannot have an effective PLC with an age group of 14 - 15 year olds? SA

I find myself nodding my head in agreement as I read Eamonn's post. My son in in a similar situation. He just turned 16, finishing up a reasonably successful term as SPL and is headed to summer camp staff this summer. After a year as SPL, attending Troop meetings, outings(many where he was the only scout older than 14), and patrol leader council meetings, he's on the verge of scouting burnout. As Eamonn noted the "hero" worship factor only goes so far. If it wasn't for the camp staff position, I'm not sure what he'd do with scouting. I know he would like to earn Eagle and he is on track, but he has begun to see scouting as more of a chore and not something he does for fun, with the exception of camp staff. We do not have a Venture crew near us, but he has expressed interest in either starting one in town or looking at some out of town. (It hasn't helped that one of his new interests includes a girl friend, but heck the kid's 16 and he's growing up.) He also has an active social life outside of scouting and other high school extra-curicullar activities. Frankly, I don't see how a 15 - 18 year old, would have time to actively participate in both Boy Scouts and a Venturing crew, and still maintain other activities that might include a sport, drama club, band and a social life outside of scouting. "Losing" scout to a Venture Crew may be inaccurate. It may be we're keeping boys in scouting through Venturing that we otherwise would have lost, and that's a good thing. Let's face it. Having an age range that run's from 10.5 to 18 years old in the same program is challenging. Most 16-18 year old boys are not likely to want hang around 11 - 13 year old boys outside of scouting. It may be that instead of looking to keep 16 - 18 year olds to be leaders in a program that is of greater interest to 11- 14 year olds, we let them move on to Venturing, if that's what they want, and begin coaching 14 - 15 year olds to act as SPLs and troop leaders. Just some thoughts. Good luck, SA

OK maybe I'm dense and don't follow all of this. Frzncph, Let me get this straight. Camp has been paid for, for all the boys. Some of the boys have formed a new Troop. The original Troop wants the money back? Does the camp recognize that the boys have paid for camp? If so, it seems like it's up to the camp to decide if they are going to give the money back or not. Once paid for though, I would find it hard to believe a camp would return money and say a boy can't go to camp. Have you asked the camp Director if he/she considers the scouts that formed a new troop to have paid for camp or not? If they show up, will he/she turn them away? SA

Can't think of specific songs, but I might jam to most anything by the Who, pre-Quadraphenia. Led Zepplin, pre- Houses of the Holy The Ramones and somewhat later the Gin Blossoms. One of my favorite songs is One Fine Morning by Lighthouse(the late 60's ,70's Canadian Band) It is rarely played on classic rock stations though. SA

Just a comment on the $4000 scout account headed to a sea scout ship. While the wisdom of individual accounts may be debated, if the troop set up individual scout accounts that the scouts may transfer to another scout unit if they leave the troop, they should honor that commitment. The troop has already benefited form the fund raising efforts of this scout or his dad and should expect no more than they laid out in their fundraising policies. The scout earned the money in good faith expecting to be able to transfer it to another scout unit if and when he would decide to leave the troop. It strikes me as extremely untrustworthy to change the rules after the fact. If the ship benifits from the funds because the scout can't spend it all on his own activities, well that's the way the troop set up their system and they shouldn't expect to retroactively change the rules. At the same time, if the policy is the funds are to be used for scout activities, the scout and his family shouldn't expect to be able to Cash out if he leaves scouting altogether. As far as spending it goes, I noted on our Council website there are still openings to attend the World Jamboree in England in 2007 at an estimated cost of $3975 per person. As far as this Troop schism and summer camp fiasco goes, my hat's off the the DE if he's willing to step in and make a decision. After all the negative stuff we've come to read about some of the professional staff it's nice to know that at least one will step up and excercise some leadership. SA

"Da best way to build pride is hard work and high expectations leading to achievement. Especially for boys, the hard work of doin' something together builds friendships and teams. Dat means yeh have to do enough, frequently enough that the kids really struggle, and learn things, and get good at them. " Take a look at Beav's wisdom above. One of the best way's to fullfill the objectives above within scouting is to plan a High Adventure trip that really challenges the participants. Plan it out a year in advance, plan and execute shakedown outings, with the participants working together, learning from each other, and gaining more confidence with each outing, and then going on that long awaited and anticipated trip that really challenges the participants. Compare the pride and attitude of units in your area that have been to Philmont, Seabase, Catalina Island or other high adventure base as a unit versus those that car camp once a month. SA

"You've got your conservative groups mixed up. Neocons push for greater military funding and greater use of the military to mold the world in their image. As a group they don't care much about social issues. " Absolutely 100% true. Neocons also are in favor of a stronger executive branch of government, specifically the presidency. Although it will be interesting to see if they are supporters of a strong executive branch when, at some point their candidate doesn't hold the office. SA

"To a larger degree, their vitriol and delivery is straight out of the circus to attract you, pull you in and make a buck. Ann Coulter is probably the "best" at it with how ugly she can get and still draw an audience." True so true. I didn't know nor did I care that Ms. Coulter was on a book tour promoting her new publication until I saw her on the major news outlets talking about how widows of 9/11 enjoy their husbands deaths. Now as much as I try not to care about her comments, I fully believe her comments were made coldly calculating the amount of publicity she would recieve and to what extent that would translate into added book sales and TV appearances. SA

John in KC, Mind if I add to your list? North Africa Sicily Anzio Italy My dad's tour during WWII. His pet peeve is the "forgotten" Italian campaign. But, regardless of where they served. My hat's off to this, the "greatest generation." SA

The issue of troop funds and distrubution has been well covered by others. I will just say I second what Vicki just said. The honorable thing to do, regardless of how the unit split is to work towards getting boys to camp. Taking a high road response to a "heck with you" separation provides a learning experience for both the boys and adults involved and demonstrates the true meaning of the scout law. The alternative just perpetuates petty, unscoutlike behaviour. SA

JB, I wish I could offer you a high adventure trade. For those units that have access to internal qualified experts to run trips like rafting or climbing I think it's a great idea. However, the vast majority of us volunteers are weekend outdoorsmen at best and while we can confidently take a group of boys on a weekend outing to a group campsite, and an occaisional backpacking trip, we would be well beyond our areas of expertise to try and run a whitewater rafting or climbing trip. In those cases I would encourage units to use the high adventure bases and commercial outfitters and guides to ensure qualified technical assistance. To do otherwise would be foolhardy, if not negligent. As Dirty Harry(Clint Eastwood) once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." SA

"Is there a list of "family values" that the National Council uses to determine who fits in and who doesn't?" Yes there is a list. It is a very short one. There are only two criteria the National office sets that restricts membership. 1. Sexual Orientation, "Avowed" homosexuals are not eligible for membership as adult leaders. 2. Specific Religious Beliefs, or lack thereof. Anyone who is not willing to sign a membership application and abide by the Declaration of Religious Principles is not eligible for membership. Nearly all other membership criteria may be set by the local chartering organization. They may add additional restrictions to members of thier unit based on say religion or gender, but not race. They also are not allowed to open membership to those excluded by the National organization. It is concievable a unit sponsored by a Catholic Church could limit adult membership to only those who qualify as members of the Church, thereby restricting membership of those who have been divorced. If reality, most CO's sponsor units that have open membership policies other than the restrictions placed by the National office. Of course, membership is still subject to background checks, recommendations, etc. Convicted criminals, are not likely to be approved as leaders, even if they are straight and believe in God. SA

I wonder why Frist doesn't word the admendment as an amendment to "restrict the means of free speech.(In only those cases where the majority of the American population disagree with the means or message.)" Sure glad "conservatives" want smaller, less intrusive government. SA

Thanks Fred for posting this link. My question would be, why is it buried under the Legal Issues page and not front and center on the main web site? SA

Cool!

Since USA Today seems to be a popular source these days I though I'd post this op-ed piece published today. It is a sobering reminder to the rest of us as we head into a holiday weekend more often regarded as the unofficial start of summer than Memorial Day. Among other activies planned for the weekend, I'll be with the Troop I serve, in our town's annual Memorial Day Parade. SA "Remember the guys(&gals) in Foxholes" One evening, a casualty officer and I drove down the road on our way to inform a soldier's spouse that her husband had died in Iraq. As an Army chaplain, I thought about how difficult it would be for this young mother and how empty the two children's' lives would be without their dad. On our way to the house, the casualty officer had assured me that he would be able to deliver the sad news. But when we got to our destination, his confidence disappeared. "Chaplain," he asked, "will you pray for me?" I placed my hand on his shoulder and began to pray. I asked God to give us the strength to perform our duty. I asked God to control our thoughts and actions and comfort the household we were about to enter. When I finished, we got out of the car and with great pain did the job that we were both called to do. Memorial Day reminds us of the soldiers who gave their lives for our country. But often we forget to also honor the families they left behind. Military chaplains guide soldiers and their families through the "Circle of Life" from births, baptisms, confirmations, marriage, illness to death. Our role is broader than a typical civilian minister's because we have to connect soldiers to God on a daily basis. There was a time when I considered leaving the ministry. Then a friend asked me to join the military chaplaincy. It changed my life. The past year, I served as chaplain for a 600-soldier logistics battalion in Baghdad. Whoever said that "there are no atheists in the foxhole" was absolutely right. These soldiers had to deliver supplies along the most dangerous routes in Iraq. When bombs exploded, reality of war forced many to do some serious soul searching. Countless soldiers came to talk to me about war, death and faith. They presented me with many perplexing theological questions: Is God on our side, and will he protect me from death? Will God forgive me if I kill an innocent person by mistake? Will God be angry with me for participating in this war? Exactly where do we really go when we die? I am back home in the states now, a safe distance away from the death and war that challenge many servicemen and women in ways most people in our country will never fully understand. This year, as we celebrate Memorial Day, we should pause as a nation from talk about high gas prices, what language our national anthem should be sung in and the latest celebrity gossip, and instead think about the men and women who continue to fight and die in places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. It is true: War is hell, freedom is expensive, death is painful and faith still matters - especially to those in the foxhole. Capt. James Key is a chaplain in the U.S. Army at Fort Irwin, Calif.

When I sat in on my first Eagle BOR, the District Advancement Chair, who led the BOR, told us specifically we should NOT ask the scout if he believes in God. We can ask how he does his best to be Reverent. SA

I agree with the responses so far. The APL should fill in for the absent PL. However, I like the idea of "coaching" the Summer PL on who he might consider appointing as his Summer APL. The issue of boy selected leadership is one of the toughest things I've found for adult leaders who have not had a scouting background to deal with. Many of them are great people who do alot with other youth organizations as well. Many are involved in youth sports. The difference is, as a youth baseball coach, the adult assigns positions. "OK, listen up, here's todays line up, John, shortstop, Bill, first base, Cyle, centerfield, James, thirdbase,...." They come from that environment, come to scouting, and they're told let the boys set the line up and help them do the best they can. It's not an easy transition for many of even the most well intentioned adults. SA

If scouting is having to rely on speakers like Ollie North to raise money, it's in big trouble. This type of event only tends to politicize the organization and confirms to organizations like the State of Conn. and Bank of America they have done the right thing to deny access to financial support to a right wing political organization. I agree, whoever dreamed this up has done a disservice to scouting overall, although their council may have collected a few bucks. SA

Campcrafter, No they don't. Although, if you are a true fan of southern style, pork bar-be-que, there are a handful, and I mean only a handful, of joints scattered throughout New England that do a passable job. There are parts of Alabama I've been to you can find the same number on a 1 mile stretch of state road. Love the smell of hickory smoke in the mornin'. On the other hand, in midsummer, I can run down to the local lobster pound and pick up a handful of chicken lobsters for $3-$4/lb, and add a couple of pounds of clams for another few bucks. Lobster as far as I know is accepted fair by all the major faiths, although I don't know how drawn butter fits in if one is trying to keep kosher. The CO for the unit I serve is a Methodist Church, that as I've mentioned, doubles as a Jewish Temple on Saturdays. Nearly all the members of our unit are Catholic. We enjoy both bar-be-que and lobsters. SA

We have had a scout in a similar situation to the scout Sir Scout-a-lot described. He would go to our council camp a different week with the Provisional troop. He had a blast. As Mn noted, these are scouts that usually really want to be at Camp. At our council camp, the SM and the SPL of the provisional troop are assigned camp staff. They are usually two of the best staff members available and go out of their way to may sure all their scouts, er scouts they serve, have a great time the week they choose to attend camp. The provisional troop at our council camp is always one of the most enthusiastic units that show up on the parade ground, and they sure look like they're having fun. SA

"If we substitute any other adjective for the word "Jewish", such as "Methodist", "Catholic", "Baptist" or even "American", would the article be any less accurate? " This is probably true but I agree with Oak Tree's comment on the 75% reduction. Ironically I a few months ago I posted an article from the Boston Globe about how Islamic scouting was growing. One reason given in the article was that scouting's "traditional values" were very much in line with the values of Islam. Consider that many Jewish organizations and Temples accept gay members and that many Christian denominations and Church's openly accept gay members and also clergy. I am unaware of any Islamic congregation accepting gay members. (Not that I go out of my way to keep track of such information though.) Consider also that many male scouters and some CO's limit the role of female leadership, also an aspect of Islam. However, traditional Bar-be-que is generally not accepted by Moslems or Jews for that matter. SA

Fred, I for one would like to thank you for the scout clip service you provide to the forum. Not all the articles are as positive as this one, but I like to know about the what ever publicity scouting gets and you posting these and other articles is quite helpful. Glad to see a couple of up beat articles though. SA

I would see the role of the BSA as more of the role of the school. The parents are the parents. However, similar to the BSA, unless the school and it's leadership is made aware of the situation, how can they be held responsible? As long as they did their normal background checks and due diligence on a teacher,(or in the case of the BSA, Scoutmaster), unless brought to their attention, neither the BSA or the school is in a position to take action if they are not made aware of the situation. I suspect the BSA lawyer has simply pointed out the poor boy said nothing at the time. If he had they would have done something about it. The editorial author took that arguement and extrapolated a blame the victim argument out of it. Without seeing the actual court papers it's difficult to tell. I'd be suprised if the lawyer made the arguments as described in the editorial, because it's such a stupid argument, it wouldn't do much for defending his client. BTW, The facility our unit meets in is both a Synagog and a Church. On saturday mornings it is used as a Jewish Temple, on Sundays a Methodist Church. Two separate congregations using the same facilities. I believe it's owned by the Methodist Church and is leased for specific periods by the Jewish congregation. SA

The reason I believe kicking Red Dog out is petty, is because his membership in the BSA has no bearing on the court case as far as I can tell. The court case will play itself out and a decision will be made one way or the other. I don't see how Red Dog's membership status effects the case. The only reason to kick him out, is for the Scout Executive to show what he can do to those that take him on. As was said, a show of power. In the meantime, the youth and scouters formerly served by Red Dog, no longer have his services as a scout volunteer available. Apparently there are at least a few who found his service of value. On the other hand, perhaps a more appropriate way to deal with this would have been to have a DE call the New York Times and reveal the fact that his wife is a covert agent with the CIA. SA (This message has been edited by scoutingagain)