scoutingagain

Trev, I don't know if there are specific membership restrictions, but in our area there are units that are for all practical purposes, are 100% Jewish and some others are 100% Muslim that are chartered by Synagogues or Mosques. I personally don't know of any units chartered by Christian denominations or secular organizations such as the VFW or other community organization that limits membership but there are probably some that I am not aware of. At Camporees or other events the Jewish and Muslim units tend to stand out a bit more, that's why I'm aware of them. I havn't made a survey. We are chartered by a Methodist Church, but have no members that belong to the church. The IH is very pro-scouting and very supportive, even though there are no members of his congregation in the unit. SA

Sounds like an ambitious trip. Good for you and the unit you serve! Based on our experiences; On question 1, from my experience I would not want to spend more than 8 hours driving time on any given day with a group of scouts. On trips we have taken, this gets us in the neighborhood of 400 miles plus per day. This has allowed us to pull into a campground around 3:00 - 4:00 pm, allowing time for the scouts to set up camp, cook a decent dinner and use up some pent up energy. We don't stay in motels, were Boy Scouts for cryin' out loud. In short, we have not pushed travel time. The longest trip we have taken was from Mass. to the Blue Ridge Mountains Scout Reservation about 700 miles or so. We went 400mi. the first day and 300 the second day allowing us to get to our mid-afternoon check in time without draining the scouts or drivers. We took a long lunch break both days, bringing cold cuts, sandwich makings, snacks and drinks with us, trying to avoid the fast food scene when we can. This past summer our unit visited DC, with side trips to an Orioles game and Hershey Park. Our group is not nearly as large as yours, we typically have 15 - 20, with plenty of adults. So far we, havn't lost any scouts at these events. We find having all wear either the field uniform or a brightly colored Troop activity shirt makes it easier to find each other in a crowd. This was a 7 day trip at a cost of about $300 per person. Camping and cooking ourselves. Fuel costs were estimated prior to the trip and included in the trip fees paid for by both adults and scouts. This summer we did have to add a fuel surcharge just prior to the trip due to the increase in gas prices. In contrast my son went to Williamsburg, VA with the school band last year to perform and go to Six Flags for 4-5 days. They stayed in motels and ate at restaurants. Trip cost was over $1000 per head and that didn't include a subsidy paid by the band booster club. They had a 12 hr bus ride down and another 12 hour bus ride back. The kids hated being cooped up that long. If we had a group as large as yours we would look into chartering a bus with a driver. If you have time, I would second the idea of stopping at Gettysburg. It might give your unit ideas on another destination trip in the future. Good luck. SA

"And aren't we already spending billions to kill some of their(Muslim)leaders? The same people who are trying to kill American civilians. " I thought terrorists were trying to kill us, and we were trying to kill terrorists and their leaders. A dare say the few Muslims I know are not trying kill anyone. I hope we are not spending billions of dollars to try to kill them. SA

Well thanks for the input. The situation was a simple two candidate race, split evenly. We decided to have a second election...the following week, giving each candidate a week to campaign. We may also end up with a different group of voters at the next meeting that may change the vote a little. We typically have about 75 - 80 % attendance at any given meeting, but there is usually some change in the make up of attendees. I do give our candidates credit though. Prior to the announcement of the results I noted that they each had sought each other out and shook the other's hand in a "may the best man win" moment. It is not uncommon in our troop for the winning candidate to select the runner up as his ASPL and they end up working closely together for the next year, in at least one case becoming close friends. I'll keep you posted.

OK. We all know the youth leadership is elected by the scouts. But, I'm curious, is there a specific protocol to resolve a tie? Or how would your unit,... er the unit your serve, resolve a tie for SPL, split evenly between two candidates? SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

"Do they point and fire these cap guns at other individuals? Wouldn't this not be allowed under G2SS? " Maybe they follow the Canadian version of the G2SS. I wonder if they're allowed to do Laser Tag up there? SA

I have to agree with Mad Mike and others. The DRP allows the scout and his family to define God and how they choose to be reverent to him. If his application was denied by a Council because he didn't attend an established Church, it would very likely be overturned at the National level. He will need to show how he is reverent though in his own way. I was told our Council attempted to deny a candidate the rank of Eagle based on his conviction for dealing illegal drugs just a few months before his BOR as evidence of not living up to the Scout Law in his daily life. He appealed and was eventually awarded the rank of Eagle. I find it hard to believe National would deny the Eagle rank to a candidate who would state he believed in God, worshiped Him in his own way, and had someone who was familiar with the candidate's spiritual side and recommended him, even if the candidate was not a member of an organized church and did not attend services. If not there are many denominations that will be happy to ordain an individual as a minister over the internet. SA

I have to agree with Packsaddle. The idea of spending school time to force a student to attend a mandatory recruiting session for any organization to me is ludicrous. It would appear that this ruling would also open the door for just about any group to hold recruiting sessions at public schools during school hours. As a parent, I would want to have a decision in what organizations my children would be exposed to for the purposes of having them become interested in and join. Whether it's scouts, a local sports team, Christians for Kids, Youth Republicans to Stay the Course, Young Democrats for Change, Gay Bi Lesbian and Transgender Students, The White Male Pride Club, or Athiest Scouts of America. I'm rather certain, this type of mandatory recruiting session during school hours wouldn't fly in my town. Any school board member that supported it, regardless of it's legality, would have a very short tenure in their elected position. Just because something is legal, doesn't make it a good idea. SA

As others have noted, one doesn't need to be an all world outdoors person to be an effective adult scout leader. The boys in our unit have been backpacking, white water rafting and climbing. While we are quite comfortable with the level of expertise within our unit for backpacking trips, for the whitewater and climbing activities we used the services of a qualified outfitter. Great times were had by all those who attended. For whitewater trips there are usually plenty of qualified outfitters on any given river. Ask at roundtable and you can usually get some good recommendations. For climbing we used the services of a local mountaineering shop that provided lessons and guided climbs. Most will give a discount for scout groups. SA

SWScouter, If you havn't done so, go to your video rental store and rent "October Sky". Its worth seeing regardless of what's going on in this thread. SA

In our troop adults pay their own way on all monthly outings, just as the boys do. As far a fuel costs go, standard monthly outings where we drive say less than 100 miles each way are not reimbursed. Longer trips, we've gone to Virginia, Maine, Gettysburg, and DC where milage was in the range of 500 to 1500 miles total for each trip, we have included fuel costs in the cost of the outing. But while a driver will be reimbursed for fuel, they are also expected to pay the standard trip fee, which includes the cost of fuel. The troop does pay for adult registrations and our council summer camp fee for youth campers includes the cost of meals for a certain number of adults. (I think it might be 2 adults for every 10 youth campers.) So our adult contingent that attends summer camp, doesn't usually pay. SA

Not to be sexist, but isn't there something about hell hath no fury? Anyway, as DanKroh said, this is a tough situation all around. Would it be possible to publicly recognize his contributions to the troop with a simple thank you and yell from the troop at the COH and then give him the plaque privately afterwards? Just a thought. Sure, this man hasn't lived up to all aspects of the scout law his whole life, but who among us has? He knows better than anyone the damage he's done to his reputation and personal character. Hopefully things will work out in the end. Good luck. SA

As far as "joiners" go, I know as I've grown with my sons, from youth soccer, little league, cub scouts, to boy scouts, I see the same group of parents involved all the way a long. Some more active in sports, some more active in scouts...but it's the same group. We have a couple of ASMs who are baseball or soccer coaches. I used to be an assistant baseball coach. By and large these are a great group of folks who are willing to spend time to better their kids lives, and the community at large. They're a great group to hang out with. I don't miss those that don't "join". Our High School also has a requirement to perform service hours for students as well. The nice thing is they recognize scout service hours towards meeting their goals. They also recognize students(non-scouts) who perform work on Eagle scout projects as credit toward student service hours. This has resulted in a ready supply of willing labor for Eagle scout candidates who wish to tap into it, in addition to scouts working on projects. It also puts the Eagle scout candidate out in front of other students, often his peers, as a leader. We recently had an Eagle scout completely re-do a courtyard at the high school. New Gazebo, landscaping, bricked walkway... it came out really nice with much of the labor being from his friends in Band, Drama, as well as fellow scouts. He's up for his BOR in a couple of weeks. SA

"All of the CM's have been spoken to and now understand that what happened was not correct, but too much time has passed and I don't know of a way to go back to correct this problem." As far as this particular problem goes, it appears it has been solved. The resolution that needs to be considered is educating the committee on the proper role of a BOR and the appropriate sequence of advancement. It should not be to somehow remove advancement from a scout who did what he thought he was supposed to do as told to him by adults within the unit. This is an adult leadership problem, not a scout advancement problem. As noted before, if you do not have the time to completely change this unit around, you probably are better off looking at other units. SA

I hate to say it, but if I were in your shoes, I'd probably be looking for another troop. You don't have the time to fix this unit and your son(and maybe a few of his friends) will be better off with a unit that's functional. Volunteer to do what you can. You sound like you would be able to do your fair share in a unit with functional adults. On the other hand I sympathize with the loss of a unit. Especially one where there are 21 scouts that, based on your description, seem to have some level of interest. But I think your COR has the right idea. If the current adult leadership isn't cutting it, clean house and give an opportunity to others that are willing to give it a go, the right way. If they can't be found...well maybe it is time for the unit to fold. Just my thoughts. SA

Just wondering how you've thought about spending your SM Pension? SA

Well then Merlyn I appologize. I just found it ironic that Ed seemed to be arguing in favor of allowing those godless, liberal, secular school administrators, to have the right to arbitrarily deny a Christian group access to the distribution of school fliers. SA

Ed, Has Merlyn stolen your password? SA

Well I'll just add my experience. We ordered 6 backpacks and 4 tents last year for our trip to High Knoll. In addition to the High Knoll trip, the equipment had been used frequently throughout the year and continues in use with no problems, defects or damage. Great stuff, great price, great service. SA

Just some thoughts related to the last few posts. First, I've had a chance to travel and work in many parts of the world, including the mid-east. When I've talked to co-workers during these travels, it's been my observation what they want out of life is for the families to be safe, healthy and happy, they have a safe home, and a job where they can provide for their families. Basically the same stuff we do. While in Saudia Arabia, I had a very interesting conversation with one of my counterparts about family camping. Where they camp, what they do etc. These basic desires have been true in Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, China, Columbia, Canada and Europe. The main difference is that in some of these countries, people have never had the opportunity to live under a government where "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is an inherent right of the people. In some places, the government basically defines this for the people. Basically the government says you'll live our way, be happy and if you don't like it you go to jail. If you try and change things, we'll kill you. So, while we know what benefits freedom and democracy can bring to a country and a people, for those that have never experienced it, it's hard to explain. To paraphrase Jimmy Buffet it's like trying to describe the ocean if you've never seen it. For Iraqis who've only known some type of authoritarian government, telling them we're going to bring you democracy, but all they see are US military personnel driving in their streets in HUMVEEs, armored vehicles in full combat gear with weapons, going into peoples home and arresting folks, it sure seems like just another military dictatorship even if they do get to vote. While I can think of several instances where authoritarian rule has been forced on another country or people(Rome, the Soviet Union) I can't think of a situation where democracy has been forced on a people or country. SA

For weekend trips, we havn't had too much of a problem. We occaisionally get one or two that decide at the last minute they can't go, usually for relatively good reasons, and it's not a big impact. We have a sign up sheet, scouts have to sign their name to at least a week before the trip, so there is some sense of signed commitment. On the longer, summer camp or High adventure trips, we have always had a requirement that some level of earnest money be put down that is at risk if a scout or scouter decides at the last minute they can't make it. If that happens, we refund as much as we can, but under no circumstances has the troop paid for no shows if the troop can't get it's money back. It's generally understood if you don't go, you lose the dough. SA

I can't put my finger on my exact motivations for participating here. I lurked for sometime before I signed in. I recognized from the discussions there was a group of scouters here I could learn from, even if I sometimes disagreed with some. So I've definately been a better scouter by participating here, and I hope once in a while I've been able to make a contribution. Most of all I recognize that there are a group of folks here that have dedicated a significant portion of their lives to scouting and deserve to be treated as such. SA

OK now for some really tough questions. This is somewhat spun from the thread on collective punishment for those scouts who witness bad behaviour yet do nothing to prevent or admonish it. I will admit that the council I am in I believe does well. We have an active program, a great council camp and at least the few professional scouters in our council I've been in contact with have been great. However, I recognize that some councils are not so fortunate and I am appalled that any scout executive would engage in some of the practices that have occurred. The Chicago Area Council for example is well known. Some of the issues in Alabama and other areas did occur. Knowing that at least some of what JKNY says is true, who among us are willing to write directly to the National office with our own names, indicating our complete dissatifaction with the actions exhibited by professionals in say Chicago or Alabama? Or do we say nothing because our councils are OK? Would knowing your son has an Eagle application headed to the National office for review make a difference? SA

I'm on the fence as to value of this requirement. While I recognize that peer to peer recruiting is probably the best way to recruit new scouts, I'm somewhat dubious as to making it a requirement for advancement. There was already a recruiter award which I thought did a good job a recognizing those scouts who recruited a new member. As for verification, it is no different than any other requirement that must often be done by a scout outside of a meeting or outing where we don't actually get to witness the activity. Yes, we take the scout at his word, but the discussion should be more than, "Did you talk to a prespective scout about our troop and encourage him to join?" "Yes." Requirement passed. I like EagleinKY's approach. So who did you talk to? What did you say about our Troop? How did they respond? Did they show any interest? etc. Would you simply take a "Yes" during a Scoutmaster conference on, "Do you live the scout oath and law in your everyday life?" SA

Never under estimate the value of a simple thank you or pat on the back. Having said that there are a number of BSA awards and recognition that are available to scouts and scouters that have assisted others beyond expectations. A descrition of these awards can be found at http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/advance/boyscout/heroism.html If you know of a scout or scouter who you feel merits one of these awards I would suggest you contact your local council. I believe it is the councils that nominate candidates for these awards. These awards are also described on the National Website which also has a summary of the nominating procedures at http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=National+Court+of+Honor We had a 13 year old awarded a Medal of Merit Heroism(I'm not sure which.) a few years back for saving the life of a friend of his after his friend managed to skateboard through a large glass door and had severe bleeding. The lad kept his cool, had others get help, and managed to control the bleeding until paramedics arrived. The paramedics indicated his friend likely would have bled to death had this scout not reponded quickly and appropriately. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)