scoutingagain

"Just goes to show that makin' things safer doesn't improve safety. It just increases the craziness of the things you can do, eh? " There's actually a term that's been developed for this. It's called Risk Homeostasis. It's basically the concept Beavah observes. Put a helmut on a kid on a bike and he just rides faster, doing more dangerous stunts. Put a rope and a harness on a kid and he just climbs higher on more dangerous rocks. Give an adult a car that has better brakes, handles better, on better roads and they just drive faster. The implication is we all have our own internal risk tolerance level and will modify our behaviour until that tolerance level is reached. So, give us PFD's, helmuts, ropes and some smooth rocks,(I hope!) and now we go Canyoneering!. SA

I don't know if TV is getting worse or not. I think there is just a lot more of it. What, most households get at least basic cable with maybe 40-50 channels. Many get another dozen or so "premium" channels. To fill all that air time there are a lot more just bad shows. However, without cable we would not likely have the Discovery channel or History channel that occaisionally broadcast some really good stuff. Now the Comedy Channel on the other hand....and how would we know what's really going on in the world without FOX news, what with the liberal bias in all of mankinds' other forms of mass media. As others have said, in the good old days, when men were men and scouts actually had to hike, stalk, signal, and swim to earn rank advancement, you were lucky if you got 3 channels comming into the one TV in your house. Not nearly as much opportunity to develop really bad programming. And we had Walter Cronkite. I have to admit, while I remember most of the older shows mentioned so far, many had hit the mid afternoon, saturday morning, syndication time slots by the time I started watching them. Kind of suprised no one mentioned the original Superman series. Other shows I liked back in the good old days were Combat, with Vic Morrow. "Cage, Kirby, Little John..." and the original Lassie series, as well as Disney. Now, about the only show I'm a real fan of, in the sense I will make a point of trying to watch it is 24 Hours with Kiefer Sutherland. Just how many terrorist plots can one man break up in a day? SA

Interesting thread. We do SPL & PL elections in the fall, and those elected serve one year terms. Sometime the troop or a particular patrol will suffer the consequences electing an SPL or PL that doesn't quite cut it. Sure, running for the office, seemed like a good idea at the time, but now they are expected to attend PLCs and actually do something. The issue seems to occur more at the PL level now than at the SPL level. Now, there are several adult leaders in the troop that would love to do away with this boy led democracy and appoint leaders. And I can see how some could argue such a system might better prepares the boys for work in the real world outside of politiec, i.e. business, government or the military. How many of us got to vote for our boss? But this boy led democracy that's a big part of the BSA system I think is unique in youth organizations. There are very few youth organizations where elected positions actually have something beyond symbolic authority. i.e. President of the Junior High School? SA

ghafer, How long has this boy served as SPL? Normally terms don't last more than a year. If he sought the office and was elected by his troopmates, he should fulfill the term of his office. To step down would not be fair to those that elected him, presuming he would complete his term. Having, said that, being an SPL is not the same as being an indentured servant. He is a free individual and can resign his position and the ASPL can take over. However, to me this certainly would not seem like the actions of an individual I would consider appointing to a JASM level position as an example of "leadership". If he wants to step down and become a general member of the troop, or serve in some other POR he feels more comfortable in and his new SPL and scoutmaster are OK with that, so be it. The bottom line is if he didn't expect to serve out the term, he should not have run for the office. SA

I can't provide advice on the Freedom Trail. Have lived in the Boston area for close to 30 years and still havn't done it. As far a Camp Sayre goes, our troop camps there once in a while. It is quite a decent BSA camp and close to the T. They just finished an indoor pool so bring your swim trunks. Camp Sayre is adjacent to the Blue Hills Reservation which offers miles of hiking and biking trails. You can hike from Camp Sayre to the top of Blue Hill and get a spectacular view of the City and harbor. Other campsites near Boston include Wampatuck State Park, see http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/metroboston/harbor.htm.'>http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/metroboston/harbor.htm. They have a separate area for scouts and I believe there is no charge, but it is primitive camping.i.e. very limited facilities other than potable water, outhouse and a place to pitch tents. There are also the Boston Harbor Islands. See http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/metroboston/harbor.htm Great place to camp, but again primitive campsites. Lots for Scouts to do in Beantown and nearby. The USS Constitution Boston Harbor Islands and the Fort on George's Island. Lexington & Concord, Shot heard 'round the world and all that. Bunker Hill(Really Breeds Hill) Salem, MA Witch trials, clipper ships Plymouth, MA Plymouth Plantation, Mayflower Science Museum Cheers(The scouts probably don't even know the show.) Good luck! SA

Well whadaya know? I learned something new. I guess given the previous reference to Meatloaf, I didn't want folks to confuse Rizzuto's naration on his hit about making it around the bases with Harry. SA

Err.. I believe "Holy Cow" was Phil Rizutto's catch phrase. Not being from Chicago I can't comment on Harry Cary. As an early Mets fan I always liked it when Lindsey Nelson would say, " And the big E lights up on the Rheingold Scoreboard." Liked his sports jackets too. I'll have to think about the celeb look alike thing. I'm afraid as a youth it might have been a white Steve Erkel. Now...?? Sean Connery yeh that's it. Sure. However, SWMBO has in the past been compared to Meryle Streep. SA

Count me as one who also finds this practice unusual to say the least. There is no reason an Eagle scout can't serve as SPL and a lot of good reasons why one should. There are plenty of positions of responsibility available for scouts who need a position to earn their Eagle Rank. This wouldn't be one of those units that also has a "rule" that a candidate for Eagle must serve as SPL would it? SA

Women can, should, and do participate in all aspects of adult leadership in Boy Scouts and I have no problem with that, as long as they are competent and I would say the same thing about male adult leaders. It is good for boys to see women in leadership roles. Given the current ratio of women to men in today's colleges and universities it is not just possible, but highly probable that boys currently in scouting will have a female boss, manager, or have to deal with a female authority figure at some point in their career in just about any endevour they choose, with the possible exception of the NFL or MLB, although that may change as well when women become referees or umpires. However, there is one thing a female adult leader can not be, and that is a positive male role model and all Boy Scout units should have several adult males that can fulfill that role in their adult leadership corps in my opinion. SA

As a scout who earned his Eagle in the early 70's and didn't earn a religious award, and whose brother did the same thing in the late 70's, I know of no requirement to earn a religious award in that time period, or at any other time. However, the requirement to live the Scout Oath and Law was still there. Dan, sounds like your friend was incorrectly advised. I personally don't know of any Pagan Eagle scouts, but don't see how that would prevent a lad from earning his Eagle if that were his chosen faith. SA

I can't speak about the specific products you mentioned, but our experience with the Alps Mountaineering equipment has been excellent. Two years ago we order half a dozen backpacks and 4 backpacking tents for a high adventure trip. All the tents are still in regular use with no problems. Keep in mind, use means by Boy Scouts who can be rough on equipment and the same can be said for all the backpacks that were ordered. In my opinion the Alps stuff easily compares in quality to the Kelty stuff. You are ordering through their ScoutsDirect program and getting the Scout discount I hope. SA

Beav also mentioned the founding of our Nation. CP indicated that disobedience be read as "civil disobedience". I throw this out just as point of interest as our country was founded not by simple disobedience, but by outright revolutionaries. They forced a change in the rule of the land by force. This passage excerpted from the Declaration of Independence(A Government Document in the public domain. ) describes the point at which our forefathers felt it necessary to go beyond simple civil disobedience. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States." SA

I'm no copyright lawyer, but one library site had this statement in a guide to copying, use of copyright material which would seem to include scout COH's as long as they're not televised or broadcast. "iv. Certain Other Nonprofit Performances. Section 110(4) exempts the performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work (excluding broadcasts) "without any purpose of direct or indirect commercial advantage and without payment of any fee or other compensation for the performance to any of its performers, promoters, or organizers" if there is no direct or indirect admission charge, or if the proceeds after deducting the reasonable costs of producing the performance, are used exclusively for educational, religious, or charitable purposes and not for private financial gain, except where the copyright owner has served notice of objection to the performance. " You can now rest easy OGE and continue to play Green Day. But don't take my word for it. As I said, I'm not a lawyer. SA

Well then... We shall now ask those in attendance at COH's to play their legally obtained copy of "The Time of Your Life" by Green Day on thier individual MP3 or CD player at the appropriate time. SA

I don't think the Beav intended this thread to be linked to the previous discussion on downloading or copying copyrighted material. That's why he started a separate thread. But he can respond to that issue himself. I don't think one can discuss the issue of obedience without include a discussion on how a scout is expected to obey his own moral compass. It's not just about the laws society and governments enact. SA

Well I've followed this thread for a while and believe that given the answer the scout gave at the BOR, appropriate follow up questions might be something along the lines of: "You have stated Trustworthy is an important point of the Scout Law. Are you truthful to yourself when you recite the Oath and Law? Including the parts about Duty to God and a Scout is Reverent?" If the scout answers in the affirmative, I'd say he meets the membership requirements and move on. If he answers that he has been lying to himself all those times he's repeated the Oath and Law, I would suspend the BOR and suggest the scout talk to his family and family religious leaders about his faith, and suggest he explore other belief systems that would allow him to live up to the scout Oath and Law in good faith. If he returns after a couple of months and can decribe conversations with his parents, religious leader and other faith systems, and has come to the conclusion he does not meet the membership requirements of the BSA he has made his own determination. I would say I was sorry that he feels that way and that if he were to change his mind, and if at some point in the future, determined he did meet the membership requirements he would be welcomed back. SA

For those that have issues with the ACLU. Do you disagree with them all the time, like when they protect the rights of Christians to practice their faith? Or do you believe they should pick and choose their battles and only protect the constitutional rights of those you happen to agree with? SA

While this might be a great activity to prepare for a high adventure hike, mowing the lawn to earn $$$ and wearing a backpack to build stamina, it in no way should be confused with an actual hike. SA

"You know, a lot of these uniform questions could be answered if people would just 1) BUY a copy of the Insignia Guide (available at your scout shop or from National Supply, new edition comes out every year or two, #33066E)," Or the BSA could post some of this information in an easily accessible format on it's website that could easily be updated so folks don't have to buy a new edition every year or so. SA

I stand corrected. The DRP (At least an excerpt) is listed on the youth application. SA

MK, Good question. The good news is this boy is 17 and has some time to find his position on faith. I am not an expert. Repeat I am not an expert, but I would use caution applying the DRP to membership criteria for youth members. You have my curiosity peaked so I will look some more, but the only references to the DRP on the National site I could find, refered to membership requirements for adult leaders. I believe the membership criteria for youth are somewhat different and have some leeway that would acknowledge that youth may at times still be searching their way through the spiritual aspects of their lives, hence their participation in scouting should be encouraged as a way to help them find their way. I would certainly defer to others more knowledgable. While I'm certain atheists and agnostics may not be adult leaders, the membership criteria for youth is not the same as adults. I could not specifically find the youth criteria on the website and am off to look again. SA

A quick google turned up this. http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=95 SA

"I was once told that it was easy to be an independent because then you didnt have to stand for anything, well if I have to stand with either side I will be vomitting the entire time. " Exactly. Based on what I've read on the Foley affair, his sordid activities have been going on long enough and with sufficient frequency that it is difficult to believe members of the Republican Party didn't know what was going on, or at least had enough information that would warrant a more carefull examination of his activities. You could be sure, if the same folks that are claiming they didn't know the whole story, or never saw the so called e-mails or text messages would have been quick to investigate a member of the opposition party. They chose to ignore the behavior or their suspicions to hold on to their majority. At the same time, I've come to the conclusion there were those in the Democratic party that were equally aware of the issue and released the information at a specific time for polical gain. I don't see how either party can claim to be the party of moral or ethics. SA

As Clint Eastwood said, " A man's (or woman) got to know his(her) limitations." How much is too much? That's something only the individual can decide based on their own circumstances. Some key indicators may include: Is there conflict on the homefront about time spent on scouting ? Is your involvment effecting your real job? i.e. the one that puts a roof over your family's head and food on the table or if a stay at home mom, are you neglecting your own family's needs to serve scouting? See above. Could you do a better job serving the youth in scouting by not wearing so many hats? i.e. Could you be a better CM or SM if you weren't a UC. Is the program of an individual unit suffering because you have over committed yourself to other scouting activities? Just some of my thoughts. SA

"Finally someone suggested we should get out of the camping business altogether. This seemed to meet with some approval. " Sounds like someone is looking at the situation from a very pragmatic, free market perspective. If in fact, membership in your council has dropped as you say, and there are other council camps available for scouts in your council to take advantage of, and their numbers are also dropping, at some point it becomes uneconomical to keep all those camps open, serving an insufficient number of campers to pay for themselves. (I might say the same thing about Scout Executives.) Some will need to shut down, be sold or whatever so that others may succeed. The cold hand of the free market, doesn't care how many generations of scouts spent summers at ye olde council camp. It only cares about how many are camping now and are expected to in the future. As we continue to lose membership, it may come to the point where not all councils can afford to operate a council camp, and some may find they can support their scouts better by "getting out of the camping business", not necessarily getting out of scouts & camping. SA