scoutingagain

Miki, While I used your quote, rest assured my post was meant with tongue firmly planted in cheek and not directly at anyone personally. If anyone took offese I sincerely appologize. It was meant as a poke at a bureacracy struggling with an issue and not apparently communicating it very well to those that may be impacted. Not that something like this would ever happen in any other organization. See FScouter's post above. Though come to think of it we did have new guy at Roundtable last meeting? Personally I think they should make an example of the New Orleans Saints. What they did to Dallas last week was criminal, although I will admit they seemed to have Romo scouted pretty well. SA

"The document stating the official BSA position is internal and is not posted for pubic viewing. " So now we have an alleged policy with alleged penalties that is not available to us. Beware, some may be on "double secret probation" and not even know it. Do they put the logos on the BSA black helicopters? SA (This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Spent much of the day on a plane today watching the history channel which pretty much dedicated most of it's progaming to Pearl Harbor & WWII. Both my father and father-in-law are WWII vets and I couldn't help thinking about how much we as a country and subsequent generations owe our parents or grandparents. They saved the world from unspeakable evil. Nothing less. Our generation and our children see Star Wars & Lord of the Rings as fanstasy adventure. Our parents and grandparents lived the conflict. Thousands of their friends and family members died in a world conflict. We owe them more than we can ever understand or appreciate. God has a special place for them I'm sure. Next time you or one of your scouts whines about some ole guy or gal in his/her 80's or 90's remind them they were once valiant warriors who saved the world. And make no mistake, anyone from that generation contributed in some fashion, whether they stay home and grew a victory garden or stormed the beaches of Normandy. We owe them our very way of life. SA

Seems to me as long as the link scottteng posted is still active, the BSA would have a hard time bringing a case against anyone who used any of the posted logos in accordance with the provisions of the website and the images were used within the context of a BSA program. I would hate to see the national BSA office go after a local council for unauthorized use of a BSA logo. I could see the entire organization unravelling. Now if I was trying to sell cars, trucks or hamburgers with any of those images I could see where I might have a problem. SA

"This is done by the Council Nominating Chairman." So how does one become the Council Nominating Chairman? Let me guess, the Council Nominating Chairman is named by the Exec. Board that he nominates or he is named(or at least recommended) by the Council Exec. My point being is that the BSA business organization seems to be run in a manner that could be used as a poster definition of "The good ole boy network." Just how far would a community leader/business executive, concerned about local scouting, get towards being nominated to be on the Exec. Board campaigning on a platform of fiscal responsibility, including taking a close look at professional staffing and professional salaries? SA

For basic weekend camping trips the Troop usually pays any fees associated with the campsite out of troop funds the boys have earned through unit fund raisers. The boys are responsible for working out the cost of food and incidentals(i.e. a movie or other activity). Taking this approach we can offer boys in the troop maybe 10 camping trips a year with no additional payment beyond a nominal troop registration fee and food costs. We also will occaisionally supplement a special or more expensive weekend trip. We do a ski trip that is more expensive than our usual trips and we will supplement lift fees for the scouts a little. ($10) The goal is to try and give those that might not otherwise participate or try skiing a chance to try the activity, even if they only go once a year. I don't view this as a give away as the money comes from efforts from the scouts. We also do summer camp and an additional summer outing. Those are generally revenue neutral activities with the costs born by the scouts/parents. The scouts may use their "commission" they personally earn on fundraising efforts for these activities if they wish. SA

Well one just didn't swim. He barely passed his 1st class swimming requirement and pursued hiking MB. Ironically, he was probably in the best physical condition of the group I would have my doubts about. The others were decent swimmers and they did earn swimming MB at summer camp although I don't think they could have earned lifesaving. I should have indicated in the physical condition they were in at the time they were awarded Eagle. It may be that with some coaching, conditioning and time they could have eventually got there and who knows, if the lifesaving requirement was still there maybe some would have made the effort and succeeded. Without the requirement there was no need to attempt to meet the challenge. SA

Well since thread has meandered to a topic that includes one of my "pet peeves" I'll throw in my 2 cents. When I earned my Eagle in the early 70's, both Swimming and Lifesaving were required MBs. No substitutions available for hiking or cycling except for scouts with true physical disabilities. These were definate decriminators with respect to the pool of potential Eagle candidates. While any reasonable decent swimmer could probably earn swimming, it did eliminate those that didn't swim at all, or were only marginal swimmers. And Lifesaving was an entirely different matter. This was the single most physically challenging MB required, at least from my perspective. It included an in water rescue that required physical strength, endurance and strong swimming skills, at least at my summer camp. I would say less than half of the Eagles in the troop I currently serve that have been awarded in the last 6 years, (8 Eagles) would have been physically capable of earning this MB. Now these are 8 very fine young men, and I don't mean to deminish their accomplishment. But if they had to face the same program I did, I honestly believe 4, maybe 5, would have not met both the swimming and lifesaving requirement. SA

"While COR's are invited to attend the Council Annual meeting and vote for the incoming Executive Board, they have no vote after that. " And just who proposes the slate of those nominated to be on the Exec. Board? SA

We have historically been a non-neckware BS Troop as long as I've been associated with the unit, 6 years. SA

Since it's my quote Ed used to start this thread I'll clarify based on what little I know. This information was provided to me by our District Advancement Chair. The local EBOR did in fact, deny the candidate his rank based on his past criminal activity. How far past, I don't know. What had he done in the mean time I don't know. The Candidate appealed, and I don't know for certain, but I beleive the appeal went all the way to the National office where the decision of the EBOR was overturned. I posted the statement primarily as an indication that it appears as far as the National office is concerned, a drug conviction, even one involving sale and distribution, is not automatic grounds for denial of the Eagle rank. I admit I would be very curious as to where this young man is today. SA

"Im not saying he should never be promoted to Eagle just not till he has shown himself worthy. " Agreed. SA

Longhaul, If the candidate denied his illegal activity, or denied that the action was wrong, in spite of clear evidence to the contrary, and I don't necessarily mean evidence that would withstand legal scrutiny, I would have to agree. But that is not the same as a candidate who acknowledges making mistakes, being truely sorry for those mistakes and pledges to conduct himself differently in the future for the right reasons. SA

OK my 2 cents. In my opinion, a criminal charge or even a conviction would not by itself automatically get a no vote. I would let a Board convene and hear the scout out. During the BOR I would want the scout to be able to demonstrate to me, through his words and deeds that if he had done something wrong, he knows it was wrong, and is repentant. If that were so, I would be inclined to vote yes, assuming all the other requirements had been met. Much would depend on how I saw the scout at the time of the BOR and what I believed his attitude and actions would be going forward. Why, because I believe one can repent, see the error of their actions and become a better person. I've seen it happen, especially in adolescent youth. BTW, I do know of a scout who had been convicted a selling cocaine to fellow students. He was denied his Eagle rank at his BOR, largely based on the issue of selling drugs. He appealed and was eventually awarded his Eagle. I don't know what he's doing today. It's a case that occurred locally several years ago. SA

Well to add my highly unscientific observations. We are a troop with approximately 20 - 25 scouts. We typically have 1, occaisionally 2 Eagles/per year. That would put us in the typical 5% area. However, the 1 or 2 Eagles come from a typical class of 6 - 8 crossover Webelos we get each year from the Pack we are associated with. That would put us in the 15-20% range. However, those 6-8 Webelos that crossover and stay active, usually start out in a class of 20 or so Tiger or Wolf cubs, which puts us back to the 5% range. I understand pet peeves. I have plenty of my own, this isn't one of them. Don't get me started on MB Univerisities or the like though. SA

We've done similar things to what's been discussed so far. We invite Webelos Dens to an open house night and the boys work with the scouts on skill demonstrations, a game and tales of past trips and adventures. The parents are taken into a separate room and a short presentation is given describing the differences between Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts, followed by descriptions of troop activities and Q&A. What I think is needed though is a Webelos Den Leader transition training program. I've had few issues with scout parents, except when they are an incoming Webelos Den leader. As Webelos Den Leader they are used to being in charge of their own little fifedom. Getting to decide what the boys do, when they do it, activities etc. It takes a while for some to get the idea that we want to encourage the boys to make decisions on what they would like to do and then if things are not quite as organized as when they planned activities or outing for their dens they get frustrated. I have one, who, after two years still doesn't seem to get it. SA

We do one "cabin" camp in the winter. Several of the New England ski areas have overnight lock ins for scouts and youth groups available. The scouts get to ski a couple of days & sleep on the floor of a ski lodge. One area, has a "midnight madness" special, where they ski until 3am, sleep in the lodge and then can ski the next day. You can get 20 hours of skiing in, in a 24 Hour period! Check out http://www.crotchedmountain.com/GroupRates.html We did this last year and the boys had a blast. No need for an evening activity to keep them occupied. So did the adults, but we tended to chill out around midnight. We also do a winter campout, hopefully with lots of snow and do some snowshoeing. It's been hit and miss the last few years, even in northern New England. Other great winter activities we've thought about include skating(old fashioned pond hockey), ice fishing, and then there's broomball. If you've never played broomball your missing something. It's similar to ice hockey, except without skates, and a short broom and a soccerlike ball are used instead of hockey sticks and a puck. Best played on a large frozen lake or pond in large groups. The official game rules call for six member teams on a hockey rink size piece of ice, but my experience is it's more fun with teams of 11- 15 on an ice surface the size of a football field, more like field hockey on ice. If you don't have ice, a large field would do, better covered in snow or mud. SA

First I second the suggestion Brent had on the Fieldbook. If not that look up some of the resources available from the Appalachian Mountain Club at http://www.outdoors.org/. Joining a local Venture crew is also an excellent suggestion. Second, while I fully understand the attraction of solo hiking and don't dissapprove of it, I have to say Gern, please at least let someone know where your going and when you expect to return. I'm reminded of the poor lad profiled by Tom Brokaw, who got him arm stuck between the rocks in the canyons of Utah. No one missed him for days because he hadn't told anyone he was going anywhere, or where he was going. By the time his friends and familiy figured out something was wrong he had been stuck in the rocks for several days. Knowing that no one would likely find him, he made the decision to cut his arm off with his pocket knife. This was an experienced outdoorsman with many miles of backcountry experience. See http://www.nbcuniversalstore.com/detail.php?p=8060&SESSID=023ba4e53e3eac3b712642393a4b34e5 SA

Yes welcome! I agree with the others. This is a very touchy subject and you seem to understand that. I think you can assume members of the unit meet the membership requirements of the BSA and should plan accordingly. The only time I have been asked to state the denomination of my faith in writing was applying for a visa to go to Saudi Arabia. I was somewhat offended only because the only other time I could even reference such a question on an official form was in a passage in the "Winds of War" by Herman Wouk where he descibed a character filling out a government form in Germany in the 1930's that asked such a question. SA

I've been following this thread for a while and find myself in agreement with Eagle in KY. Scouting is a program for boys up to the age of 18. At 18 the boy becomes an adult in the eyes of the Boy Scout program. At our council camp, youth staff that turn 18 during their tenure at camp are literally marched out of the youth quarters, and are assigned to the adult staff area. Actually they make a neat ceremony out of it. But it makes it clear to the 18 year old he is no longer a Boy Scout, but an adult leader in scouting. To answer your question Laure, JASM is a youth position. The only position an 18 year old can hold in a Boy Scout Troop is that of ASM. And with all ASM's, their responsibility is to support the program for the youth members of the unit under the direction of the SM. The SM needs to consider the maturity and capabilities of the ASMs working with him when considering assignments. An 18 yo ASM shouldn't be expected to perform at the same adult leadership capacity as a 50yo ASM with 30 years of adult leadership experience. But that 18yo might be in better physical shape to be able to shadow a group of energetic young scouts up a mountainside. SA

"There is nothing I have heard or read that the Democrats have offered in the way of innovation." This is true. In fact it's testimony just how poorly the electorate thought of the policies of GWB. We voted for the party that had no plan rather than stay with the leadership we had. The Democrats, if they're smart will not make the mistake of thinking this election was about a great move to left. If anything both parties should take home the message, the swing voters they need to win elections are firmly planted pragmatically in the middle of the political spectrum and if they want to win elections, maybe they should start pandering to them instead of the extremists in both parties. Which is why I think the Democrats will do exactly what Hunt said and do what they need to do to win the Presidency in 2008. In that sense they will be governing "for the people" because no major decision will be made without testing it on focus groups and watching public opinion polls. SA

I suspect Rumsfeld may not have relished the idea of spending the next 2 years sitting in front of House Committees chaired by Democrats answering questions. I find it amusing that today the Republicans are now talking about bi-partisan government. But hopefully the Democrats do just that. SA

Well in the context of my last post, a "non-scouting" event or more precisely outing would be one in which a members of a BSA unit plan and participate in, but do not get a council tour permit for. Either because the council doesn't give them one based on the information, or lack thereof, on the application or they don't apply for one. The more precise term may have been "non-permitted scout outing", not in the sense the outing is not permitted under the G2SS, but in the sense the council has not issued a tour permit. The point is the BSA or council is not likely to track a unit down, or show up with a SWAT team at a unit assembly point and prevent them going on an outing if all the drivers havn't provided a DL number and insurance info. But, I don't know if they will grant a tour permit if that information is not provided and I suspect there may be consequences for those units that undertake outings for which they do not get a valid tour permit, such as not being covered by BSA insurance. However, the lack of insurance coverage is not likely to relieve an individual or the CO of liability if an injury occurs on such an outing. Like I said, I don't know if a tour permit would be issued if you don't provide DL numbers or Insurance info on the application. If a council is willing to issue a permit without that information, they must not think it is very important. If they won't issue a permit without that information, it must have some importance to them in the sense it gives them the legal fig leaf they need to issue the permit. The permit indicates that the council is aware of the outing, that the unit has told them they will transport scouts with licensed drivers that carry the minimum requirements for insurance, and that any excess coverage needed in the event of an accident would be covered by the Council's insurance. At least that's one interpretation I have. Like I said, folks don't have to give the DL numbers if they don't want to. They are free to transport scouts anywhere they want in whatever fashion they want. Just don't expect a BSA council to be willing to issue a tour permit which at the very least documents a good faith effort to comply with the BSA G2SS rules and implys the council will provide additional insurance coverage. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Well I'll admit I've never tried this and don't intend to. But if others want to do so and let us know how they make out I'd be interested. Submit a tour permit without the DL numbers and insurance info. If you get a signed permit back, that would imply to me the council doesn't feel the information is needed to officially acknowledge the outing as a scouting event. If you don't get a permit back, or the council asks for the information before they issue a permit that would seem to me it is information they feel they need to issue a tour permit and acknowledge the event as a scouting event. Units are free to participate in all the non-scouting events they want to, just don't expect the BSA's insurance to cover you if you are not participating in a scouting event. You might want to let your CO know your taking their unit on non-scouting outings as well, because they may want to consider increasing their liability insurance. Or as a leader taking scouts on non-scouting events you might want to consider increasing your own liability insurance. SA

Jeesh. The whole point of state's changing their DL numbers to something other than Soc. Sec. numbers is to address folks privacy concerns. The DL numbers shouldn't be tied to anything but their driving record and as Fscouter points out, the fact that they have a valid license. If the BSA is going to provide them supplemental insurance, the BSA has a right to know the driver has a valid license. If they are transporting a group of scouts, and get into an accident, and three scouts end up needing medical care for life, do they carry enough insurance to cover that under their own policy? Next people will complain about having to give their names. SA