scoutingagain

Yes, We've had a couple decline an Eagle COH. But we did include a special ceremony at a regular troop COH so the younger scouts had a chance to see the award, the scout and had him say a few words. This seemed to work out the best for the scout that did not want all the hoopla of an individual COH. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

I think Beavah, OGE and others have given good advice. One question, has the scout completed his project and had it signed off by the contact for the group that will benefit? While you can choose not to sign his application, you should know the scout has the option of submitting his paper work directly to the council and ask for a BOR. We had a case like this where an older scout, on track to earn his Eagle, was not elected SPL as he expected to be. He just sort of dropped out after that, but was not disruptive. He never made it. SA

"Catholics have more than protestants, so I guess that they aren't Christians either" There are certainly those that identify themselves as Christians that would agree with this statement and there are many Catholics that would define their faith as the one true Christian faith and others as non-Christian. Asking who the real Christians are, is like asking which is the one true faith. SA

Any adult leader that can still fit into their youth uniform has the tip of my hat. The last time I wore my early 70's vintage BSA uniform, I was 5' 9" and maybe 120lbs. I'm not any taller, but havn't seen 120 for a long time. SA

No one has said they have, we're saying they could and it wouldn't suprise me if they have. The local papers in the past few years have had articles about Catholic Priests, Youth Coaches and Teachers that have been falsely accused. In the teacher's case, he had to leave a school system he had taught at for years, move his family and change professions, yet those that had accused him ultimately recanted their stories, but by then the damage had been done. No charges were ever filed. I've sat on a jury where a criminal case got so far as to go to trial where it was clear from the testimony and cross examination the alleged youth victim had made up his story because he had a beef with a local old gentleman that lived alone. Ultimately the defendant in the case was found not guilty but only several years after the initital accusations had been made and his name dragged through the media. Anyone getting involved with a youth organization should know and understand this is a potential risk and a very good reason to follow YP rules to protect themselves. I run into too many leaders that have the attitude, "I know I'm not a pervert, so I don't have to follow those rules. I mean who would believe I'd ever hurt or do anything to one of these kids. That would never happen here." SA

False accusations are a real possibility. YP rules are there just as much to protect adults as the youth. GW's scenario is not so far fetched. Or to go a step further, it's not outside the realm of possiblity for a scout who's SM, has told him, "Practice this skill a bit more and come back next week. Once you've masterd the ability to (insert scout skill knowledge), we'll put you up for a BOR.", to be sufficiently frustrated or angry to go home and make up a plausible story or two about the SM, even get a couple of other scouts to corroborate the story. It's happened in other organizations. So once the dust has settled and if there is a clear exoneration, I would see no reason not to reinstate the leader. However, in many cases there may be no clear exoneration or there is some remaining doubts, and the poor sole would be out of scouting for good. This has happened in other organizations as well. SA

I know I shouldn't jump in here but... Scoutldr, I'm an not a lawyer either, but like you am a H&S pro and deal with regulatory interpretations and lawyers quite frequently. They happen to surround my office. I also worked in the insurance industry for a dozen years or so. I would agree with your interpretation of a "reasonable man" in the context of scouting. And a leader that acted otherwise would be negligent in my opinion. However simple negligence would not eliminate coverage by insurance. In the example GW gave, to have insurance coverage voided, at least as I understand Beav's position(which I agree with), the Leader that took a group of Cub Scouts on a Whitewater rafting trip,(clearly against G2SS bold type policy) would have to do so with the intent to do the scouts harm or get one of them drowned. If the Leader was never trained, took the boys on a rafting trip and was simpley "negligent" in his duties as an adult leader, with no intent to do harm or expect his actions would cause harm, he would still be covered. SA

I see "learning" and being able to demonstrate a skill for the purposes of advancement different from mastering the skill. Sure you can teach a scout a couple of knot one night, have him practice them and test him a week later and he will likely be able to correctly tie the knots. However, ask him 3 months later and unless he's had the opportunity to use the knots, chances are he will not be able to tie those knots correctly, or at least not without some difficulty. I see mastering is being able to perform the skill correctly over and over again one the first attempt. This occurrs after repeated use of the skill, whether it's for a real need such as map and compass, or scout games at distric or troop events, like knot tying or 1st Aid. I don't expect a Tenderfoot candidate who has learned to tie knot and practiced for a week for a specific test of skill to have the same level skill retention for that knot as a Life candidate working on Pioneering MB. As far as First Aid goes, no one time course will make an individual proficient in 1st aid regardless of the students age. This is why we test 1st aid skills an many scout functions and competitions and adults who expect to remain certified in Red Cross 1st Aid must repeat the course every 2-3 years. How many of us who took calculus in college to earn a degree in science or engineering or business who are over 40 could solve a differential equation now? Do any of us that don't use this skill on a regular basis but were once taught it and successfully demonstrated the knowledge at one point still retain the same level of proficiency? Does this make your degree any less valid? SA

"the Scoutmaster can retest all he wants. " I would have to disagree. If the SM has delegated lower level advancement item signoff to a PL, Troop Guide or ASM, and that person signs off on a requirement, the requirement is completed, period. Now if the SM talks to a number of 1st or 2nd class candidates and it seems they can't duplicate a skill, the SM needs to talk to the one who passed the candidate in the skill in the first place. The candidate has fulfilled the requirement in accordance to the way the unit has set up it's advancement process. The SM needs to fix the process he set up, not penalize the candidate. At the T-1st class level, scouts are not expected to master skills for the purpose of advancement. They learn and demonstrate and complete the requirement. As they progress in scouting they will find they re-use those skills they learned on outings, and for more advanced MBs. By the time they are STAR or LIFE, by then they find they actually begin to master some or even most of the basic T-1st class skills. This all assumes the unit is running a decent program where the skills are used on a regular basis outside of advancement. If the unit is not hiking, camping, cooking by patrols, participating in district events, etc. where the skills are used over and over again or adults step in and do the work, whether it's cooking, camp set up or navigating a trail, the scouts will never master the skills. SA

From the adult leadership application, " I agree to comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America and the local council." When you sign the application you agree to the above, even the bylaws, rules and regulations you don't have access to. SA

Regardless of what any document says the facts are many Districts and Councils do not use Blue Cards(including the one I'm in), and still participate in the BSA advancement process. They produce Eagle candidates and they're approved by National. I always thought Houses of Holy was mediocre at best. A few good cuts, but not up to ZOZO otherwise known as Led Zeppelin IV. SA

kenk, I do basically the same thing you do. I try and wait until the very last minute to print out the report so all the advancement earned during the period shows up on the printed report. Occaisionally I do have to hand write in an award, but I try to keep it to a minimum. SA

Let me get this straight. The Troop decided to hold a BOR, with the scout not even there to discuss anything and decided to withold the application at the unit level? I agree with nldscout, file the appeal immediately. Be sure to include in your appeal a description of the process the unit used to deny the application. Have it confirmed by the SM if you can. Turn everything in as soon as you can. Gees, why do these things have to turn into a semi-legal, issue? It's amazing to me how some adults cna be so petty as to take stuff out on a child. SA

The issue isn't whether or not a scout should satifactorily perform in his POR, it's who gets to determine that. I would find it very difficult to believe a BOR would reverse an acceptance of a POR. This is a unit level issue. If the scout is elected or appointed to the position and the SM signs off on the requirement, it's a done deal, short of a BOR proving conspiracy and fraud on the part of the SM and the scout. Poor or unsatisfactory performance or negligence on the part of unit level adult leadership will not negate a scouts passing this requirement. I've sat in on a number of Eagle BORs and other than asking a scout what his POR was, there has never been any discussion on how well he did or didn't do the job that would effect the finding of the Board. Based on some of the appeals I know that have been overturned by National in my own district, I'm certain that any district level BOR that delayed a scouts advancement because they thought the scout did not perform in their POR, after the SM has already signed off on this requirement would be reversed on appeal. While taking anything written in these forums with a grain of salt is a wise thing to do, I would say the same thing about anything written on a Council Website as well. These are not "official" BSA postions, but usually the opinions of council staff and volunteers. SA

"Is it possible to do research on Sickle Cell Anemia in Caucasians? Yes. And this is probably an under studied group, being as small as it is. Sickle cell anemia does effect a small minority of caucasians. Seek and ye shall find. SA

Congradulations and thanks for sharing. I think your experience provides a pretty good insight on the level of effort, commitment and timeframe it takes to change a troop culture. If anything I'd say your ahead of what I would expect. That's a credit to your time and effort. Frankly I suspect you don't really know what you've done yet. You won't appreciate how much you've accomplished until 10-15 years from now you run into one of your former scouts and see the man they've become, partly because of your efforts. SA

"He'd completed all 1st & 2nd class requirements, except knife/axe/saw (2nd) and civic meeting (1st), plus spirit / conference / BOR, " As the unit's Adv. Chair I would look for one of several possible sources of documentation for a transferring scout. A signed Troopmaster Advancement History. A council Scoutnet report. Any advancement cards issued by the previous unit, MB cards(not blue cards, the award cards), rank cards, totin' chip etc. The scout's handbook with individual requirements signed. No matter how uncordial your separation from your previous unit is/was they should provide you with an individual advancement history. As an advancement chair I can't imagine a set of circumstances I would deny a scout a copy of this information, even if for some reason we recommended to the council the youth be banned from scouting for some egregious reason. Now the level of detail of that report could vary widely, depending on the level of diligence of the individual responsible for keeping the record. For example, our Troopmaster records do not show individual requirements for T - 1st class, until the rank is earned, including SMC and BOR. Good luck. SA

I agree with my wife 100% of the time. SA

No, I'm particularly repulsed by the prohibition on Laser Tag and have considered forming my own youth group that would allow Laser Tag. I may start an organization called Laser Tag for All and try and subvert the movement from within. However overall I consider the pros of the program outweigh the cons of not being allowed to have an "official scout outing" of Laser Tag. SA

scoutldr, If Hillary gets elected you won't have to worry about where your estate will end up either. SA

Even before Beavah posted the letter I suspected something like a financial issue. I mean would you really expect the BSA and Sweden to come to a consensus on the social stuff? SA

" ask them three questions that they should be able to answer " I have to ask, do they start with something like "What's your favorite color?" SA

We have never submitted anything to council other than signed Troopmaster COH/advancement reports. They have never been questioned. We do the same as Ed and Beavah suggest. When a scout reaches Life and gets all the MBs he needs for Eagle, at that time I as the Adv. Chair for the troop will ask for the council's records for the scout and compare them to what we have. I had one case where the council did not have a record of the scout earning Personal Fitness. I gave them a copy of the COH/Advancement report that we had submitted a year earlier showing the MB on it and they unpdated their records on the spot. SA

"After all, who's to say that "honest" really means telling the exact truth all the time, anyway. The concept of one unalterable truth is probably a culturally conditioned prejudice that is thankfully giving way to a much more open and understanding view which holds that each person has his own truth, and therefore no one can compel us to one form of "honesty." The BSA needs to get with the times and change this antiquated notion. " Well if we hope to develop scouts who aspire to political leadership in our current democracy this approach seems like it would be the best way to develop leadership most likely to actually get elected. SA

Our District run's basically three separate "divisions". 1 A "Leadership Patrol" Division - defined as any patrol with more than one Life and/or Eagle Scout 2 A Regular Patol Division - Limited to One Life Scout in the Patrol 3 A New Scout Patrol Division - Patrols made up of 1st year scouts. Not allowed to have any scout 1st class or above. I'm not saying this is right or wrong. This is what they do. I believe this was done because some units would "stack" specific patrols with their senior scouts to make them more competitive. Ran into one "Leadership Patrol" from outside the distict. Made up of all high school aged boys that had made it a goal to win every Klondike Derby they entered and they spent the better part their winter weekends travelling New England, camping out at the scout camps or other venues and participating in Klondike Derbies. I think they entered 8 - 10. I don't know if they won all of them but they did finish first in our Leadership Division. They were serious Klondike Competitors and very impressive scouts. They knew their skills, worked together as a team and had a lot of fun. For boys like these it would be nice to really give them a challenge and have a regional or national Klondike Derby Competition. Offer some scholarship $$$. Get some corporate Sponsorship. Anyone from Coleman, EMS, REI want to sponsor a National Klondike Derby Invitational? I bet we could get it on ESPN2 or the Outdoor Network! Get one of those survival gurus to do color commentary. 50 sleds from 50 states plus a few from overseas. Heck make it an Olympic Event. Get it on the X Games! Just a thought. Sorry got carried away. Now back to your thread on Senior Patrol Klondike sleds. SA