scoutingagain

"So BSA seems to be accommodating me and my CO and scouts parents and our unorthodox unit." Exactly. So what's your beef with the BSA? That they accomodate other units and their scout's parents to operate a scout program in line with their own "values" that are not exactly the same as yours? SA

"I think that it may be wishful thinking that we can all find in BSA something to meet the various needs of the public in a scouting program. I think if BSA wants to both expand membership and to prevent Schism, they need to allow for irregular variations of BSA that specialize towards the values of different constituencies." See Hunts post above. Currently there are only two relatively small constituencies to whom the BSA program is not open to. About the only way the BSA could be more inclusive in it's membership policies would be to allow for full local option for COs to set their own membership standards.(Something I would be willing to support.) SA

You mean I can't put it towards a big screen TV? SA

My prayers are with this family and scout. I too am not coming to any conclusions yet. I was just dissapointed to see the headline in the local subway rag read "Boy Scout Killer Confesses". Seems like the only time BSA gets national publicity lately is when there are multiple fatalities or a scout executive is arrested on child porn charges. SA

"If you put the Judeo Christian religion on the par of Wickans and the tooth fairy, then you are arguing for relativism that undermines not only Boy Scouting, but the underpinnings of our civilization." Uh, I believe the BSA already does put Wiccans and the Tooth Fairy, along with many other beliefs on par with the Judeo Christian religion. Where's that quote about a rock when you need it? SA

"I know many people who think BSA is a fascist organization" Yes and others think it's a conservative, Christian organization. Neither group really understands what scouting is about. Thankfully, I don't believe both groups combined represent the majority. SA

Pack why do you think the good ole' boy's club was started anyway? SA

Interesting to see differences from Councils and Districts. Our Districts conducts EBORs at the unit level as Beavah describes. The District Advancement Committee sends 1 volunteer and the other spots are staffed by unit committee members. The SM sits in and rarely says anything other than to introduce the scout. Artigas, Welcome and congratulations. Your application should be fine. Administrative errors not of your doing should have no bearing on your application. Looking forward to your comments in the forums. SA

I started to respond to this question but decided it's an absurd assumption. Scouting is apolitical. Anyone who sees it as an extension of politics, part of a culture war, red or blue, one way or another doesn't get it. SA

Carl, I kind of sensed much of what you've posted here is a much a vent as anything. This is a good place for that. You may get pulled aside and asked "are you feeling OK?" ala Bob White's suggestion once in a while. But overall venting in a forum like this is pretty benign and can be constructive. I'm sure there are many scout units out there that would welcome your assistance. The best suggestion I have would be to contact your district or council and offer your assistance. They can steer you towards a unit that would welcome your help. Regarding your question though. Scouting is not an appropriate place for vulgar language. Period. I think Bob White's approach is a well thought out approach and no I don't believe there is any policy other than the Scout Oath and Law. However, there is a wide range of socially accepted language across the country and across socio-economic groups. None of that excuses the use of such language in scouting. I might have a little forebearance with a construction foreman from Brooklyn who is trying to amend his behaviour in front of scouts who would simply be speaking as he would naturally. I doubt I'd threaten to call the CO or Scout Executive and report such an individual. In his cultural environment using certain four letter words as adjectives is no different than someone from France speaking with a French accent and is perfectly acceptable in his normal social environment. That's not the same as directed foul language at an individual. That allows for the forebearance I spoke of, not an excuse to continue. I would probably continue to remind the individual to watch his language. Having prejudices against those of us from the heathen North for the way we may speak is no different than some ignorant Yankees who naturally assume anyone with a southern accent is less than educated. But profanity directed in anger at any individual, adult or youth, should not be tolerated in any circumstances. SA

Calico, For the unit I serve, which I've said is one of those "non-sectarian, generally secular" units you describe. But, I honestly don't believe that we are typical and it seems most of the units around us introduce more elements of faith than we do. I also believe that if the BSA were to become fully secular, with no elements of faith associate with it, even the youth in our unit would miss out on something. As a "non-sectarian, generally secular" unit we have several youth from families that are not regular church goers. (My son included.) Some of the few times these boys are confronted with the idea of thinking about faith and their place in the world is responding to the question, "So how do you do your duty to God?" or "How are you Reverent?" during a BOR, and I think that has value towards contributing to the growth of the scout. SA Hopefully I didn't anger Lisa by responding in this thread. But I think the twist is a natural progression of the initial question posed by the thread.

Welcome Mr. Ploense and let me also offer my hearty congradulations to you and your son. I appreciate your desire to vent a little, but I agree with others. Let this go and enjoy your son's accomplishment. Frankly we don't know the situation well enough to really say whether or not the SM acted appropriately or not. We have heard only one side of the story so it doesn't really matter what we think about the SM. I'm satisfied enough with the process to believe if your son fulfilled the requirements and sat through a Board of Review that approved his application he has deservedly earned his Eagle Scout. I wish him well. SA

Wonder why he didn't seek out the views of fellow Eagle Scouts; William Bradley Micheal Bloomberg Micheal Dukakis Ronnie Earle Richard Gephardt Jack Murtha Steven Spielberg? He didn't call me either:(. SA

I know I had my two but I changed my mind on one after reading the thread on the school vrs play thing. I would like to see MB Universities, Colleges etc. outlawed. SA

I think the answer to this is relatively straight forward. As much as the CO chooses. I recognize Pappy's CO has a lot of involvement with his unit and chooses or allows to have his Catholic Christian faith be a significant influence in the unit they sponsor. Good for them. I suspect if Pappy or other leaders tried to exercise the same Christian or Jewish influence on the Troop up the street sponsored by a Mosque it would be suggested they find a more appropiate unit to work with. I suspect a Christian or Jewish unit would do the same if a Moslem cleric wanted to volunteer to lead their unit to teach the boys about Allah and the Koran. As for the unit I serve, sponsored by a Methodist Church, it is pretty secular. Boys of all faiths are welcome although ironically most are Catholic, none are Methodist. There is little if any Christian religious influence in the unit. Other than recognizing the Great Master of all Scouts occasionally there is little religious influence at all. That is left to the boy's families and individual houses of worship. And I think all of the above are just fine. SA

My two program changes; 1. Second Hopps Wilderness 1st Aid requirement or at least add elements of it to the 1st Aid MB requirements. 2. Remove the either/or statements for the Eagle required MBs emergency preparedness/life saving. SA

"It was then that some politician likened the idea to "shoveling money out of airplanes flying across the country." A good metaphor." Except this is money the government doesn't have. They already run a deficit. To pay out this money their only choices are to cut back on government services like funding a war, education, social security, etc. or borrow more money. One of the reasons given for the slow down in the economy is that many Americans have extended their personal debt too far. Credit cards are maxed out and others can't make mortgage payments. So the government in it's benevolent wisdom is going to borrow more money for us. This may get the economy out of a slump in the near term but we (or more likely our children) will pay the piper at some point. The really smart thing to do with this money would probably be to start a 401k or Roth IRA for your children. SA

I'm of a similar mind. The logistics and organizational requirements of large units at somepoint outgrow the ability of most youth and even most adults to effectively administer. My picture of an ideal unit tops out at about 50 maybe 60 scouts. On the other hand small troops essentially function as patrols, and I think until you reach a threshold of say 20 scouts, the youth leaders are missing out on opportunities to learn to lead true patrols and have a proper PLC. I don't mean to disparage large or small units. I just see the program as operating best with a troop of 30 - 60 scouts. SA(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Barry, If you can put your "joint" rebate down on a 'vette, go for it! If I did that I'd be sleeping in it. SA

Personally I'm not a big fan of additional paperwork. The scout has his manual that has places where he can record his advancement progress. No need for additional documentation as I see it. All the information asked on the proposed form could be gotten from the scout verbally during the SM conference. Although if your an SM of a unit with 180 scouts maybe you do need additional layers of bureaucracy. I have enough trouble keeping track of the 25 - 30 scouts in the unit I serve. SA

Yes, only a few years ago there was at least one fatality involving I believe a youth staff member that was firing a ceremonial cannon at a summer camp. It was discussed in the forums, but I forget the details now. SA

A: Spud Busters

Since our fiscally irresponsible government(Republican Executive and Democratic Congress) is close to concluding we collectively don't borrow and spend enough money to keep the economy going, they are talking about borrowing more money to be paid back by our children so they can give us some cash to spend now. They will probably find something to argue about like just how much money to give to us and who should get the credit for the great economic boom that will surely follow. I've heard on the order of $800 per taxpayer or $1600 per couple filing jointly. For me that's enough to pay one month's tuition payment for No. 1 son's Spring Semester with a little left over for dinner for HWMBO and I and maybe a new dutch oven for the troop. Although HWMBO seems to want new kitchen counter tops. What will do you with yours? Happens to be about the fee for our Council's Philmont contingent. Maybe I'll look into seeing if they need any adults. SA

We've had only a couple of older boys join the unit in the past six years. One was an older sibling who joined at 13, another a friend of a scout. In both instances rather than placing them with incoming Webelos crossovers they joined the patrol of thier peers. We tend to have aged related patrols, after the NSP, but there is some crossover. In both cases the boys were assigned a "mentor" scout. Kind of an individual troop guide to help the scout advance to 1st Class. One of these boys stayed a couple of years and dropped out when his friend did. They other stayed on, worked camp staff, SPL etc. and eventually earnded Eagle. SA

I'm not sure I really have a dog in this hunt and the thread seems to ramble about anyway. I'm not going to worry to much about the legislation that initiated this thread. But regarding local option of parks and land use. While Gern's example is one I offer as an alternative Baxter State Park in Maine. Try telling the folks in Maine you want to federalize that park and see what they think of that idea. SA