scoutingagain

"Back when THIS guy was, say, 13 years old, there was not only nothing wrong about those thoughts, but those thoughts were evolutionarily unavoidable" But Pack, I thought at that point you "chose" to be heterosexual. SA

"It is not the bogeymen of the ACLU that is the issue, its the judges that make the decisions that effect the BSA " Well that, and as you have pointed out, the laws the judges base their decisions on. There's that pesky Constitution we would have to deal with. SA

I'm also the Advancement Chair/Eagle Advisor of the unit I serve. For better or worse the SM generally defers to my decisions relative to advancement, but I recognize that he guides the advancement program not me. I empathize with your frustration Joni. But 1) Let the past go. Anything awarded in the past is done and there's basically nothing you can do about it. 2) I agree with Lisa. See if you can work with the SM to tighten the standards applied going forward. I bet if you asked him if he really believed all the scouts had met the standards the BSA expected to advance he would admit they hadn't. He probably doesn't want to be the bad guy, but if he knew he had support and a willing allie he might develop more of a backbone. Be positive in your approach about approving the program. Don't start off by talking about how things have been all messed up. Best of luck. Feel free to vent. Don't expect big changes overnight. Be satisfied with incremental improvement and keep moving forward. SA

I think this is a good thread. There will be many opinions and I think we need to respect them all and exchange ideas. I agree nutrition should be age appropriate and the needs of 11 - 18 year olds will be different from us geezers. At the same time I'm not from the camp that expects us old guys to eat nothing but nuts, berrys and greens. I like meat and there are certainly more healthy ways of preparation and cuts/variety of meats that are more healthy than others. The issue of adult cooking is a different one and I hope this thread stays on track discussing healthy menu suggestions. I like the humus idea. One I like it and two it may have introduced a healthy snack alternative to scouts that might not think of it. It's a better choice than fried chips and soda not matter what one's age. I brought a crudete plate(that's a veggie plate and dip) to a scout event once where every thing else was chips, cookies, soda etc. The scouts went through the carrots and cellery but left the broccoli and cauliflower. Next time I'll skip the broccoli and cauliflower and maybe add some snap pea pods or fresh string beans. I don't think I thought much of broccoli at age 11 either. Fresh fruit is also another good choice. Pinapple, melon chunks, etc. I hate seeing doughnut chain doughnuts at breakfasts or morning meetings. I always eat them because they taste good and I know they're bad for me. Another good hot cracker barrel choice would be teriyaki chicken strips on sticks. Lean steak strips would be fine as well. Something a little different might be venison if you know some hunters and can prepare it well. Some stores might have access to buffalo. Just trying to think of things the scouts might find interesting, a bit different and healthier. I think we should try and be a little more creative than bags of processed chips and soda. What else? SA

I'd like to see how he would answer the question in the project workbook on "How does this project benefit the community?" SA

"Let the sabotage begin." This can also happen in the caususes as well. Look what happened in WV. SA

"but there should be enough sufficiently fit adult leaders available that it never comes down to not having enough adults to do an active outdoor program. " Absolutely. And as Clint Eastwood said, " A man's got to know his limitations." If adult leadership is holding back the unit from high adventure activities due to their physical limitations, they either need to recruit adult leaders that and take on these types of activities or find opportunities the boys and take on without adult leadership from the unit. For those interested here's a link to the Valley Voyageur program offered by the Daniel Webster Counil in NH. http://www.nhscouting.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=17388&orgkey=1812 I have not had any of our scouts participate in this program(yet), but have heard good things about it and it is unique in that it does not require adult leaders from the unit to participate. I don't believe their allowed to participate. A crew of scouts older than 14, backpack for 5 days in the White Mountains on their own, with a pair of camp staff in tow, to help out where needed, but the crew is basically on it's own. They hike from site to site and participate in various activities similar to High Knoll or a mini-Philmont. The White Mountains are challenging terrain to say the least and anyone, youth or adult, hiking in these mountains had best be in good shape. Eamonn, the first part of that quote include, "unless there are extenuating circumstances...", I would say multiple back surgeries and age to a certain extent qualify as "extenuating circumstances". At 53, I carry around 15 - 20 lbs, mostly around the middle I'd like to get rid of. But I can still hold my own with the boys on backpacking trips, whitewater rafting and the occaisional pickup touch football game. My statement had more to do with those units that Pack refers to. Those that may refrain from more challenging high adventure trips because they don't have adults who are able to physically take on those types of trips. SA

Well unless religious conservatives are willing to hold their noses and vote for a candidate that votes his conscience instead of marching lock step with party big wigs, those superdelegates may end up selecting the next President. SA

I agree with Acco that unless there are extenuating circumstances, adult leaders should generally be fit enough to deliver an active outdoor program and model a healthy lifestyle of diet and physical activity. All I'm saying is, a person can be quite fit and healthy and not necessarily have the chiseled features of a body builder or Hollywood action hero. In fact, some folks may have a natural body shape that on the surface would lead one to believe they are overweight and unfit, however given their level of activity and fitness, they are just fine they way they are. Looks alone will not tell you what is right for any one individual. Now if a leader drops scouts off 5 miles from camp so the scouts hike in and the leader drives up to camp, sets up giant hammock and parks themselves in it for a weekend, stuffing themselves with doughnuts and chili dogs that's not the model I would want for an adult leader. A different leader with the same physique might strap on a backpack and stay right with a group of 14-18 year olds for a 50 miler. You won't be able to tell which is which just by looking at them. It'd also quite possible for that fit looking, active adult, with a family history of heart problems could keel over on the trail at age 45. SA

Pack, I agree. The point of my post is that we should not be so judgemental about physique. That alone is not an indication of an individual's physical fitness and as you point out, there are good people with individual reasons for the way they look. SA

I guess the question is where does one draw a line with respect to fitness and leadership. I would not recommend it be based on body shape or type. There is ample research to suggest some larger folks at their "natural" weight can be fairly fit, healthy and active but will not look like a model. On the other hand if adult leadership is not offering scouts opportunities to participate in high adeventure activities because the adults can't keep up due to personal weight and fitness issues, thats a problem. Adults as role models don't need to look like television fitness gurus, but should demonstrate healthy lifestyles in diet and physical activity. SA

I'm having deja' vu all over again. SA

As long as we're quoting; Here's what that great intellectual and philosopher Loudon Wainright III had to say about Men; SA Men Loudon Wainright III When a ship is sinking and they lower the lifeboats And hand out the life jackets, the men keep on their coats The women and the children are the ones who must go first And the men who try to save their skins are cowards and are cursed Every man's a captain, men know how to drown Man the lifeboats if there's room, otherwise go down And it's the same when there's a war on: it's the men who go to fight Women and children are civilians, when they're killed it's not right Men kill men in uniform, its the way war goes When they run they're cowards, when they stay they are heroes Every man's a general, men go off to war The battlefields a man's world, cannon fodders what they're for It's the men who have the power, it's the men who have the might And the world's a place of horror because each man thinks he's right A man's home is his castle so the family let him in But what's important in that kingdom is the women and the children A husband and a father, every man's a king But he's really just a drone, gathers no honey, has no sting Have pity on the general, the king, and the captain They know they're expendable, after all they're men

OK, this thread kind of comes from the EBOR thread. But more than just Eagle candidates go through BORs. Sat in on one last night for a Star scout. Good kid, active, could be a little more active in his role as PL but overall doing well. A pleasure to have in the troop. Asked, "What do you do to live the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life?" Scout Response: " Well,... I'm not mean to anyone." Was his serious reply. The Board looked at each other and started laughing. I suppose you had to know the scout. We then coaxed out of him how he helped around the house, at school, how he made others laugh etc. and got him to admit the Oath and Law was a bit more than just not being mean to anyone. Any others? There have to be some doozies out there. SA

RMcCown, Had anyone given the QM feedback on his performance prior to his SM Conference? Or were folks silent on the issue? Generally folks interpret no feedback, as I must be doing OK. If the scout is not fulfilling his responsibilities, he needs to know that prior to his SM conference so he has a chance to correct his efforts. SA

I've never tried this, but it might be of interest to a ship's crew. Is there a Radio Controlled Sailing club near you? Or would you have enough $$ to buy a couple of RC Sailboat kits(I've found them starting around $125.)? Build a couple of RC Models and have a series of indoor match races ala America's Cup consortia at a local pool. Supply wind with some fans off to the side of the pool. (be sure their plugged into Ground Fault Circuit Interupter outlets) Something different. SA SA

The relationship with our CO had been like most, nearly non-existent. Things have improved the last year or so and I expect them to improve dramatically in the future. The church got a new Pastor last year and his son just joined our feeder pack! SA

Firecat I tend to agree with you. I believe some of Pappy's rhetoric is simply to get other's worked up. Pappy, Do the scouts and scouters in your unit know, understand and agree to live by the Outdoor Code? The Outdoor Code As an American, I will do my best to - Be clean in my outdoor manners. I will treat the outdoors as a heritage. I will take care of it for myself and others I will keep my trash and garbage out of lakes, streams, fields, woods, and roadways. Be careful with fire. I will prevent wildfire. I will build my fires only where they are appropriate. When I have finished using a fire, I will make sure it is cold out. I will leave a clean fire ring, or remove all evidence of my fire. Be considerate in the outdoors. I will treat public and private property with respect. I will use low-impact methods of hiking and camping. and Be conservation minded I will learn how to practice good conservation of soil, waters, forests, minerals, grasslands, wildlife, and energy. I will urge others to do the same. SA

I realize there are some elements of the MB process for some badges are going to be school like. Some require readings, and written reports, etc. My biggest beef with the MBU type events is they go out of their way to make the MB process not just school like, but school! They completely destroy the intent of the MB advancement process. SA

Summer camps have been in the MB business for as long as I've been in scouting and that goes back .... well before Nixon. However I remember MBs at camp to be more activity oriented, MBs that were not easy to get other places, i.e. canoeing, rowing, riflery, life saving, sailing, swimming, archery, etc. I remember them being challenging and completing a MB in a week was not a sure thing. I remember having to wait a year to complete a couple because I had not mastered skills to the satisfaction of the youth counselor. My son worked at summer camp the past two summers. Tried to give partials to a couple of scouts that just didn't do the work. SM complained to the Camp Director who basically signed off on the MBs overruling the youth counselor. Son learned how beauracracies work. Now it seems youth counselors are no better or worse than the adults that counsel MBs at the District MB University, which is MB school and is my real point in responding to this thread. 1st thing to do to not make MBs school like would be to outlaw MB Colleges and Universities which is just that, MBs presented as school. I've said before, our local District sponsors an MB University that runs 3 weekend in March. That ties up three weekends so many units don't do an outdoor activity that month. The end result is scouts taken out of the outdoors and plunked into classrooms. They hate it. The only ones that participate are the scouts really into advancement. They come kicking and screeming brought by parents who want those badges. The parents pay "tuition" i.e. $20 - $30 depending on the badges selected and heaven forbid young scout does not get the badge. Those that like scouting for the outdoors? Fuhgedaboudit! I also counsel Cit. in the World. Would love to take scouts on an international trip, but not really much of a probability in my neck of the woods. What I have done, is limit the no. of scouts I'll counsel at any one time. No more than 4-5. I do my best to engage them in discussion. Ask questions about current events. I've travelled quite abit and bring in old passports, money, pictures etc. Stuff for them to touch, explore and ask questions about. But the big thing is I think limiting the number engaged at any one time. The MBU I mentioned frequently has 30 - 35 scouts in a classroom. I'm counselor non-grata within the unit because I don't volunteer to teach at the MBU. SA

" am firmly in the camp that says slashing and burning, cutting and building, is a lot more about conserving the manly arts and man's proper relationship with his environment rather than doing our darndest to keep the TV Indian from crying. " Pappy, The above is probably the biggest issue I have with your vision of scouting. I could care less about the patatoe guns. Your scouts have their own private camping area to slash and burn. Most of us camp in public parks or other peoples private property. Leaving it as we found it is just a matter of common courtesy. It has nothing to do with being Liberal, GREEN or PC. There are other venues to teach pioneering skills and most scout units do incorporate those skills into their program. I hope you teach your scouts to be respectful of other peoples property or property they share with the rest of us. i.e. public parks, national forests, etc. If they don't own it, they shouldn't be slashing and burning it. SA

Yes Merlyn, thank you for the correction. SA

Pappy, The BSA already has a program very much like you describe. As OGE noted it is called Veturing and is open to all youth ages 14-21. SA

Just an FYI. That ID card will get any scout or scouter an instant 10% discount at any item at any Coleman outlet store. Including items previously marked down. SA

"Would I prefer a Catholic centered scouting organization for me? Sure. But I could imagine a Jewish Scouting Organization, an Islamic Scouting Organization, LDS, Jehovah Witness, Evangelical Christian, an Ecumenical Scouting Organization, An Atheist Scouting Organization, a Wikan Scouting Organization, and a Secular Scouting organization, etc. Whats wrong with scouting being tailor fitted for the CO or even a Nation-wide affiliation of COs? " And every option you mentioned above is currently available to COs in the current BSA organization, with the exception of an athiest scout unit. "If it increased the scouting movement by satisfying the particular moral and ethical desires of target groups, whos harmed?" I agree 100% As far as the 2000 Democratic Convention goes, it was inexcusable behavior on the part of partisan adults. Personally I don't believe the scouts should have been there in the first place, nor should they have a presence at the Republican convention. I don't believe either party should be trying to use the BSA name and brand to advance their own political agenda. The BSA is non-partisan and shouldn't be involved in party politics. They should not have been there anymore than BSA councils should be having partisan political speakers at fundraisers. It does nothing but alienate one half of the country or the other. SA