Scouting Mom

A group of us took some Cubs to the last jamboree. We were camping as families, not as a pack, in fact, we weren't even all from the same pack, so tour permit rules didn't apply. However, we spent the day at Jambo, the kids were even allowed to participate in a few things, nothing major but enough that my oldest is very excited about the possibility of being an actual participant next time. We then spent the night at the campgrounds at Kings Dominion Theme Park. We spent the next day at King's Dominion. It goes without saying that that part was a hit. I can't speak to any rules about repeatedly visiting the Jamboree. No one was keeping track of that sort of thing. (Although you do need to show ID to get onto the military base) I do know that there used to be only one or two days when visitors were allowed, but they have lifted that rule, allowing visitors pretty much the entire time. We went on a Saturday and there were tons of people. We got there just after they opened for visitors and had to wait in a huge line. We stayed until they kicked us out and we saw less than half of what there was to see. Food is expensive on site and you can't bring any in with you. There's a LOT of walking between exhibits. The talk among some visitors was that all of the hotels within 50 miles were booked well in advance. The campground we stayed at only had a couple of group sites and they were booked well in advance as well. I think we booked only a week, maybe two before, but we were only in a small family site. The KD campgrounds had patches available for scouts. Another campground nearby is at Westmoreland State Park. I understand it is very nice. We looked into it once for a pack camping trip, but it was out of our budget. I will be a Webelos den leader in the Summer of 2010. My husband got a letter last week confirming his appointment to Jambo staff. I doubt our pack will plan a trip to visit Jambo, but I'm planning to pitch it to my den and if all else fails, I will take my own kids. I thought the next one was going to be in 2014, not 2013. Although they are going to be moving it away from AP Hill, I understand they are looking at keeping it in the Mid-Atlantic area and are considering one or more sites in Virginia.

So, this isn't just my area. My daughter has been looking forward to joining scouts since she could talk because her brothers have been scouts for years. I've read enough here and a couple other places to know that Girl Scouts and Cub/Boy Scouts are radically different, but that's ok because although my daughter has been involved with camping and other outdoorsy stuff since birth, she is very much a girlie-girl. What little I know of girl scouting today, and can remember from my time in scouts waaaaaay back when, it's just up her alley. Her: Mom, when can I be a girl scout? Me: When you are 5. *a few months later* Her: Mom, I'm 5 now, can I be a girl scout? Me: You have to start kindergarten. We'll talk to the Girl Scout leaders when they have their table set up at the school open house, next to Daddy with his Cub Scout table. *a few months later* Her: School's started. Daddy put my name first on the Girl Scout list at the open house. Am I a Girl Scout now? Unfortunately, my answer is STILL that she has to wait. They have recruited a leader to start a troop with 5 girls from my daughter's school, but the leader has to be trained and the meeting place/time set. But one of the potential meeting times coincides with her brother's den meetings, which Mom and Dad are both leaders of two different dens. Sooooo, she may end up in the troop down the road, which already has a leader and meeting place/time established, but they won't be starting up meetings until sometime in October. Although Cub Scouts went all summer, they kicked into high gear a month ago. Dance classes started 2-3 weeks ago. Cheerleading started practices 6 weeks ago. Soccer practices started 2 weeks ago, so did T-Ball. Daisies won't get going for another 2-4 weeks yet. They may have had 5 girls put their name down as interested at that open house, but I don't see them keeping them interested. I've already made a number of commitments that will allow less and less time for Girl Scouts and I've been trying to hold back because I know it's coming. In fact, the only reason I know what the status is of the new troop is because I've made an nuisance of myself.

And since we don't live in that wonderful ideal world with CORs who are closely involved and UCs who make their presence felt... A few years ago, the parents in our pack decided they'd had enough of our CC. He was much like the one described here and was basically suffering from burnout. He'd been running the pack single-handedly, despite new parents who wanted to step up, begged to step up, but he didn't like them so he held on doggedly long past his need to move on. Well, something happened and it went out by email to the parents. For several parents it was the last straw. Not one of us had ever heard of such a thing as a charter organization, a COR, a UC or anything else...the CC kept that info and his contact with these people to himself. We parents DID know that there was such a thing as a Council and if you go on their website, you could find something called a district executive. Suddenly that DE got bombarded by emails and phone calls from several parents, including myself, who didn't know that the other parents were doing the same. I have no idea if the CC ever knew how many people and who had complained, but he got a phone call from the DE. The DE got the CC's side of the story, including the fact that the CC wanted to move on, but for various reasons was reluctant to do so. The DE did what he could to resolve the CC's issues with leaving and encouraged him to resign. And everyone was happy (eventually). I'm not saying that the DE is the best one to solve YOUR situation. As someone said, it's not really his job. But if there is SOMEONE, ideally the COR, but it could be the UC who holds some position of authority, who can have a little chat with the CC and come up with a resolution that will suit everyone.

As z Tiger leader last year, the biggest stumbling block to getting the boys through Bobcat was having the parents go over the child protection stuff. The kids all got their part down fine. There's nothing that says the boys have to memorize anything. The closest it gets to that is that they have to "learn" the promise. As already pointed out, there is no requirement to withhold the Tiger Totem or beads, just the actual rank badge.

I'm confused, is this a Webelos den or not? If not, parents sign off, DL needs to accept that, end of story. If it IS a Webelos den, then the parents need to go back and read the beginning portion of the handbook that explains how Webelos is different from lower ranks and it needs to be re-explained to them that the DL or his designee is the only one to sign off. This process is part of the transition to Boy Scouts and to bypass it is doing a disservice to the boys. Can the CM trump that? He's not supposed to, but in reality yes. Should he? Absolutely not. And I agree with the others that communication is essential to making it right for everyone.

Our Council mandated that everyone use online advancement as of June 1, 2008. HOWEVER.... There is a glitch in the system that I don't think they've fixed yet that prevents inputting Tiger rank after the boys have been moved up by ScoutNet. This is the only rank affected. For example, if you have a Tiger who earns his rank in June (He was almost done and granted a little more time, which someone already pointed out is permissible according to the Leader guide) then there is no way to go back and input that rank online. If the same thing happened to a wolf or a bear scout, the system would allow the rank to be inputted. Therefore the only way to file an advancement report for this Tiger is on a manual form. Council won't like it, they may tell you it's a no-no, but I've dealt with them enough to know that the people at council, just like those at the pack level are in it for the boys. They will make it happen because it's the right thing to do. You just have to make them understand the problem. As far as "going paperless," it'll never happen. Computers created more paperwork, not less. Any council that is trying that will see the error of that very soon. We are still required to turn in the printout from the internet advancement program in order to get all of the rank materials. In fact, they used to just hold back the rank cards and sell the badges off of the shelf, but after 30 or 40 years of this practice, they finally discovered that some packs don't care about the cards and end up not filing advancement reports at all. This created a huge mess when everything went to online advancement, so now they will be holding the rank badges and only exchanging them for advancement reports (Which I realize most of the country has always done.)

This is now readily available on BSA's website. http://scouting.org/CubScouts/FastTracks.aspx

I guess I was unclear in my last post, let me try again... The quote you gave from the NCS site refers to "National Camp School certification." Not NCS Day Camp Certification, or NCS Resident Camp certification or anything more specific. The site you provided the quote from doesn't even do Day Camp certification. NCS provides certification includes 24 different programs. From talking to people who have attended a total of 4-5 of those programs, they have varying lengths of certification. The "Program Director" session description is for Boy Scout Resident Camp, and there is another session entitled "Resident Cub Scout/Webelos Scout Program Director" and perhaps they DO have a 5 year/season certification. The Certification required for Cub Scout Day Camp, which is where this thread started, is entitled, "Cub Scout/Webelos Day Camp Administration" and those I know have gone through it say it's a 2 year certification. So it seems to me we are talking about two totally separate programs/trainings, that just happen to be taught at NCS.

Hmmmm....Adirondack Campus doesn't do Day camp certification, only resident camp and things like shooting sports and aquatics. I was talking to another person who had been to NCS, but for COPE and Climbing courses. He said his certifications were good for 3 years. So, the statement that NCS certification is good for 5 years doesn't apply to those courses either. So maybe that's only for resident camp management. I don't know, but the implication that ALL NCS certifications are good for 5 years seems to be incorrect.

I agree that two years is a waste of resources...it takes that long for a director to work out the kinks. Where did you find that info? I know since it is NATIONAL Camp school, it shouldn't vary from region to region, but maybe as someone said, the word on the policy wasn't properly spread.

Am I wrong or is this just Program Helps without the monthly themes? If so, and if it's going nation-wide this coming Fall (which seems to be supported by a quick search on those councils doing the pilot), than why have Program Helps at all?

"My certification is old (91 vintage) but the certification was good for Five (5) years for CSDC Program Director. Has National changed the rules?" I've been involved with our day camp for the last two years as a lowly staffer, not worthy of NCS training, but this year's Camp director said he card expired after two years and when he recruited his Program director for this year and his own replacement for next year he said he was looking for someone who could make a two-year commitment. Also, his predecessor only ran day camp for two years, so I'd have to guess that any change in those rules happened at least 4 years ago.

Tiger Cubs and their parents always benefit from an experienced leader. Your local pack will love you. Just make sure you are aware of the changes over the last few years. Last week, I caught a Webelos mother and a Boy Scout mother teaching their new Tiger Cubs the Tiger Cub Motto, which went out in 2006.

"These people are more obnoxious in getting their beliefs publicized, but those beliefs are essentially the same as those held by many others in this country: homosexuality is a sin and should be punished/eliminated." Then please explain why they say those Scouts died because the people of Nebraska and Iowa are evil. Why do they carry signs that say "God Hates America." How are these beliefs essentially the same as those held by many others in this country?

Hats for leaders are optional. I've always been told that as long as it has a BSA logo on it, it's good, so buying a lookalike and putting a pin on it works. Someone I know wanted a campaign hat. I think he said he had a size 8 head. He found a look alike hat online and put a pin on it and you wouldn't know it wasn't the real thing. I don't know where he got it though.

I saw that press release yesterday, but it wasn't from a reliable source. I checked into it and found it is, in fact, true and the stuff they posted on their website is worse. However it occurred to me that are probably counting hits on their site and salivating over the attention they are getting. There is no other reason for them to protest these Scout funerals. A high profile death (they are protesting Tim Russert's funeral too) draws them out of the woodwork so that everyone knows who they are. Those of you who say they were protesting back in the 80's just prove that...who cares if they protest the death of some unknown AIDS victim, but when they got sued for protesting a soldier's funeral and that lawsuit got national attention, suddenly they are a household name and the only way to keep in the spotlight is to continue to protest anywhere they will get on camera. It draws attention to them and in a sense, legitimizes them. Ignore them and they'll go away.

As you can see from the responses you have so far, every council runs day camp very differently. Of your concerns, however, there are some universal truths. 1. Day Camp is run by volunteers. Although it varies from place to place, in our council the only paid staff member isn't really Day Camp Staff, but the District Executive whose full time job making about $35K is to spend his days pushing paperwork and his nights and weekends making sure scout units are thriving throughout the district. 2. Someone, somewhere, is responsible for a budget, but the pressure is likely to keep costs low, not make sure you get what you pay for. Our Day Camp costs $130, $150 or $175 depending on how early you register and we've been told that if our council doesn't significantly increase popcorn sales next year, the price of day camp will go up again because it's losing money. 3. Day camp directors are required to go to a three-day training for which they don't get paid and MAY have to pay for themselves. These trainings only occur in about a dozen locations across the country and are only offered 4-5 times per year, per region. This training is only good for 2 years and then the person has to go again, or more than likely, someone else steps up, making for a high turnover in camp directors. If your camp director has only been planning since the beginning of the year, he's running late. He was probably just recently recruited to the position. Our day camp director started recruiting staff for day camp this year, during day camp last year. Those staff members started brainstorming ideas at the same time. We haven't had day camp yet and he's been looking for months to recruit his replacement because his 2-year training is expiring. Day camps often have "Tot Lots." They are optional and are generally at the discretion of the camp director, but parents of Cub Scouts who are volunteering to run stations or even just be den walkers often have more than just the one child (their scout) which means if you want them to help, you need to do something about their young children, hence the tot lot....some charge for this, some don't, but toddler/preschool boys in tot lot are future Cub Scouts. It's in everyone's best interest to let them see what their big brothers are doing and to let them participate in some small things, like skits and songs. The girl siblings having full participation in Day Camp is new this year in our area, (fully approved by council) I don't know about elsewhere. But it grew out of those girls in tot lot, who are too old to be hanging with the toddlers, but too young to be left home. Just like tot lot, it's intended to make things easier for potential volunteers. So, what do you do about it? You know that old saying, "If you want something done right, do it yourself" I know that's not the answer many want to hear. We all have demands on our time and we can't do it all, but if you really don't like the way something is done, find out who does it better and how it's supposed to be done. Then take the knowledge back to your district/council/etc. and help plan how to make it better. Visit other camps within a reasonable distance and see if you like it better and either help make your local camp better OR next year, take the kids somewhere else. There is no rule that you have to stay within your district or even your council.

We took some Wolf Cubs in '05, along with some younger siblings. They had a lot of fun, even though there were a lot of things they couldn't do. We only did one day though. Seeing everything would have taken at least 3 days. My former wolf will be 12 the Summer of 2010, just in time to meet attendance requirements, as long as he has his 1st Class and his Dad has been offered a staff position. They are both walking on clouds.

In 5 years of Cub Scouting, I've only seen two books come apart, both of them Tiger books from this year. The first one of these was a boy who got his book in April, even though he couldn't officially join until June 1. This same boy had earned his Bobcat by the first den meeting on June 6th. He's earned more elective beads and more beltloops than any other boy in the den. By October his book was being held together by a rubber band. The poor book just couldn't handle it. LOL. But that's no excuse. Since the Tiger book is the most recently updated book, maybe it has something to do with the manufacture process, since none of the other books seem to have this problem.

Most scouts I know of change shirts either when they earn Webelos, because they've run out of room and need somewhere to put the new badge, or when the other boys are moving up a rank (May or June) and they don't, they'll move up to the tan shirt. Boys joining in the 4th grade should save the cost of the blue shirt and go straight to tan...no point in buying two shirts, when one will du. Of if a boy outgrows his shirt sometime in the 4th or 5th grade, no point in buying another blue shirt.

I took BALOO a few months ago purposely from a trainer who I had never had a class with. My husband teaches BALOO and I had helped him prepare for his classes, so I knew what HE'D teach me. I wanted a different perspective. I discovered that the trainer I had was inclined to present "best practices" as "hard and fast rules." And when I challenged her on one thing I knew was wrong, she glossed over it quickly, so that the other participants wouldn't realize that she was adding to the rules. According to this trainer, Cubs can't camp without their own adult...period, set in stone. Now, this didn't sound right to me because I knew my BALOO-trainer husband had allowed a Wolf cub in our pack to camp without his parents being present. The parent had given written permission to another scout's parents to be responsible. The two boys slept in one tent and the parents of the one boy slept in another tent. However, I didn't have a copy of G2SS in class (I expected trainer to have them, because my husband always does for his classes) so I couldn't look up the reference and ask her to justify her statement. Besides, by then I'd decided she had no business teaching the class anyway. So, after reading this thread, let me see if I can sum it up... In the ideal, each Cub has his own parent on a camping trip, but when that isn't possible... 1. A parent can send another adult with written permission. Whether this adult can sleep in the tent with the boy is a matter of debate depending on community norms, parent expectations and common sense (which isn't always common.) 2. A parent can give written permission to another scout parent to watch over their boy during the course of the trip. This other parent CANNOT sleep in the same tent with the unrelated boy, but the unrelated boy can sleep in a tent with the scout-son of the supervising parent, or may sleep in a tent alone, although this is not recommended. The supervising parent ideally should not be one of the scout leaders, however this is not a set rule, just a recommendation. 3. Each pack and/or COR has the right to develop a policy that is more restrictive, so rules 1 & 2 may not apply in those cases. Am I missing anything?

If the rest of the pack in grade based, the Tigers should be too. If the wolves are all second graders who (depending on when their birthday is, and when the school cut off date is) are 7 and 8 years old, the Bears are 8 & 9 year old 3rd graders and the first year Webelos are 8 & 9 year old 4th graders, then the Tigers should be 1st graders, be they 6 or 7 years old. If the boy was held back and is 7 and in Kindergarten, then technically, he can join as a Tiger as of his 7th birthday, even if that is in the middle of the school year, however then he technically cannot move up to wolves until his 8th birthday in the middle of his 1st grade year. The boy then gets off schedule from his den and keeps switching dens. Now I realize LDS packs do this and that's just how they work, but they don't have Tigers anyway, so I imagine the pack in question is a grade based one. Also, consider...if a boy is 7 and in Kindergarten, isn't it likely he has a special need? Few jurisdictions will hold back a child that young unless there is a special need. Therefore, if the school system feels the child is on a K level, is it in his best interest to put him in Tigers now, or to wait until he's in 1st grade? My understanding of having the grade and age requirement differ...considering that the age is generally a year older than the typical boys in the mentioned grade (ie. most 1st graders are 6, not 7, 2nd graders are 7, etc. at least in the beginning) has more to do with the way LDS pack operate, while everyone else looks at grades. It also helps keep boys who join mid-year in the den that corresponds to their grade level.... A couple of years back, we had a brand-new CM installed in February. In March, two boys joined the pack and the CM was taking their applications. CM was a homeschool parent, so grade levels meant little to him. He tried to put these two 3rd grade boys in a Webelos den, because they were too late to realistically earn their Bear by June and both boys were already 9 years old. The rule for Webelos is 4th grade or 10. He didn't believe me and demanded verification of the rules because he'd already told these parents that there was no point in joining the Bears because they couldn't get their rank. I agreed with him that they wouldn't get rank, but could have fun with their 3rd grade peers and move up with them June 1 and begin working on Webelos then. Still the CM wanted to argue that he had to see proof (which was not readily available) until one of the parents said, "My son's friend is H...what den is H in?" H was a Bear, end of argument.

Officially, the inspection sheet says neckwear is optional for adults, at the discretion of the unit. In our pack none of the adults wear anything on the neck. In the local Troops who have personalized neckerchiefs for the boys, the leaders generally wear what the boys wear. The general exception being if someone is going through Wood Badge, they wear that neckerchief.

The assets belong to the CO, however in most cases they are encouraged by the DE, the Council or whatever powers that be, to release the assets either to the unit or units the scouts are going to, or to some other part of BSA, such as the Council. Good public relations being more important than a few tents and a relatively small bank account, the CO will usually agree. I know of a unit who wanted to fold for lack of membership, having only the bare minimum of scouts and too few leaders. The individuals who stayed with it wanted to join a neighboring unit. Council didn't want them to fold without a chance to have another round of recruiting drives. The unit leaders who were left were determined...so was Council. All of a sudden the COR calls up the the CC and informs him that if they try to disband, the CO will retain all funds...the unit still exists. They expect to run out of money over the summer and join the other unit. Another unit was butting heads with their COR and after several attempts to reconcile, they tried to move to another COR. Knowing the history of the bad relationship between the unit and the COR, the same DE and council as in the above situation asked the CO to release the funds and let them go...the difference being, there wasn't going to be a loss of a unit or a loss of scouts. The same people were forming a whole new unit with a new COR.

First of all, let me point out that as committee chair, you "outrank" the cubmaster. I know you don't want to create hard feelings, but if you demand the dens be separated, it is in your power. Pulling rank is generally a bad idea, but it should give you some leverage in the negotiations of how to arrange these dens. The fact is, joining the dens should never have happened without your express approval as both DL and CC. The CM doesn't have the right to do that on his own. Another thing, as both DL and CC, it is easy to burn out and not do either job very well. Also something you may want to point out in the effort to re-separate the dens. Furthermore, if chaos reigns, nothing is getting done and that is not in the best interest of the boys. Another argument you need to make. Now, that said, if you want to start out slow, pick two parents from your den and tell them you've noticed how well they interact with the boys and how you really want them to step up and be your assistant den leaders. If you can't talk them into it, pick two more until two of them accept. Then each week after consulting with your ADLs if possible, plan an activity, obtain the materials, and split the den into two groups. Have an ADL work with each group of boys on the same activity, or have two activities and the boys can switch mid-meeting. Split the group differently each week, if necessary, to maintain the feeling that they are still all together, even though at the moment they are working in two groups. However, expect that certain boys will gravitate towards each other. Watch for it and use those friendships to draw a line separating them into two dens. Get your ADLs trained and encourage them to do more and more planning on their own. Hopefully one or both of them will be prepared to take on the position of DL.