Scoutfish

"Yeah, I think something has to happen with the Cub Scout program, there's too much burnout by Webelos. I don't know if it's starting them as Tigers or what, but something should change. I just don't know what." One thing that would help tremendously would be to have more activity advancement with rank advancement. What I mean is trhis: as a Tiger Cub, the only shooting you can do as a scout (officially) is a bb gun at a council or district event. Usually they are Red Ryder spring/air bb guns with heavy emphasis on spring. By the time you are a second year Webelos, you can still only use that same little weak spring/air Red Ryder bb gun. Same with archery, canoeing, etc..... The only thing a Webelos scout can do differently from any other cub scout rank is go camping as a den. Sure, they can go as a guset to a boy scout camporee, but are limited to those same bb guns and smaller bows and arrows. Mind you, I am not saying they should be handed shotguns just because they are at camporee, but there should be a transition in place. Wolves should use that same bb gun. Next year as Bears, why not have a lower powered pump up air powered bb gun. As first year Webelos , shoot those break barrle bb guns that are even higher powered. As a second year Webelos, .22 bb guns. Each year, it gets a bit more exciting. Same thing with canoes or even aluminum jon boats/row boats. It's like being treated like a preschooler all through elementry school until the day you actually enter middle school. There needs to be levels and advancement among the fun activities too. Look at camps too. You have parent son wekends that are mostly gears towards Tigers. Sure, Bears can get stuff out of it too, but it is Tiger gearded. Resident camps are better, but they are mostly geared towards Webelos. Bears can go as Webelos( in my council) but it is still a gap in rank to activity relationships. It's akin to having your 5th grade child wear a Barney shirt and scooby doo shoes until une day, you get him a pair of BK's and hand him whatever is cool right now( I won't claim to know since I am 41 years old and clearly have one foot in the grave based on todays 6th graders point of view!). There needs to be a transition that keeps scouts interested and works for their age.

"Heck when I read the G2A wording, the advancement interpretations seem pretty clear. Yet when others read it, they hear something very different. Different to the point that I really wonder where they are coming from and I want to actively protect my scouts from those leaders." I agree. WEll, I haven't been in a position ( yet) to think I need to protect my scouts from other leaders, but I do know some of those leaders that I will need to protect my scouts from ....one day! Well, if you notice , G2A is not written in a way to indicate an absolute, binding set of requirements. That's because every trip, outing or unit is different. Every scout is different as is ever oppertunity for meeting requirements. As son as the G2A lists a dead set , binding way of doing something, there will be a handful of cases where there was a needed exception. Problem is - so many people try to make every little shortcoming an exception: " My son would have met the camping requirements except that he forgot his tent and had to sleep in the admin building. It wasn't he fault he only got 18 nights in, he really was planning on doing 20, so that should count!" "We planned for this trip for months and months. On the second night of our 4 night campout, the weather turned cold and rainy and the scouts were miserable, so we went home, but since we really spent alot of time planning, we should get credit for it, right?" "The only camping out troop does is summer camp, so we should be able to count every long term camp. It's not our fault that the requirement only counts one long term camping. Everybody just knows that - that's not fair!" Thing is, even if G2A had 150 specific rules written for each individual MB, somebody would try to come up with an exception in there case.

Okay, I readily admit that since this is my first year at summer camp with a troop, I may not understand things or know things nearly as much as any other adult leare in atroop. But Thursday night, we had a pre-camp leaders meeting at the camp and only 9 of us attended - including the council development director. Found out that 209 scouts are going to the first session of summer camp alone - so that does not include scouts going to the 2nd or 3rd sessions. BUT.....the meeting was for ALL leaderes of ALL sessions. Just wondering if this was a normal thing for leaders to not show up for this meeting. Even though it was my first meeting of this type for my first year of sumer camp...it was made very clear that quite a few changes were being made from the previous years itenerary. I assume they will be for the better, but again, since I did not attendend Boy Scout summer camp before....I really do not know. Anyways, I thought it was a very good informative and knowledgeable meeting. And they fed us too!

A couple more points to consider here: 1) Every parent looks at their own kid with a bias. If our kid is good, he is sooooo much better than your kid. Your kid is awful! If our kid is bad, he's te worst kid ever and we will get on him for doing something that we think is cute when your kid does it. 2) As a parent who is at the den meeting, you are mostly focused on/working with, handling your own child while the DL is focused on/working with/ controling everybody's child. So all the non leaders kids who's parents are trhere have a dedicated adult partner while the leaders kid has less than an entire adult paying attention to or working with him. 3) I have noticed that some parents see the leaders kid start doing working on an activity before before they or their own child does because they are listening to the DL explain what it is they are going to do. They think the leaders kid is just a impatient uncontrolled child who can't pay attention and learn. What they do not realize is that the leaders kid has seen, helps work on/ is a guinnea pig for the activity. What I mean is, is that the leaders kid may have already worked on, and help the DL prepare the activity. He already knows what it is they are going to do inside, outside and backwards. And in the same way, the leaders kid has done alot of activities the other scouts ahve not because as a leaders kid...he's at every event. Your son may have missed 3 meetings ina row, but the leaders son not only attended, he lives it at home to. 4) Some children are just awful brats! Not ones with developmental issues or conditions. Some are perfectly healthy, mentally fit nothing wrong at all kids who ate just mean little jerks! It just happens this one belongs to the DL/CC/CM, etc.....

Arrgh! The dreaded double post! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

"If the idea of only one summer camp being a qualification for the camping MB because the BSA wants a more varied camping experience for the scout..." Wait, that is my feeling of why it is, not an actual reason given by BSA. Speculation on my part only. But, to clear it up, It's not only one summer camp, but being limited to one long term camp being "allowed" to be used in teh total count. Could be your troop goes on a week long camping/hiking trip somehwre on your own. Could be you have a school teacher who is an adult leader who is off for the summer too.Maybe someone who is retired military or a non working spouse. They wouldn't want this person to take the boys on a 3 week long camping journey and say that you had the vast and varied experiences that 7 or 8 camping trips ( plus summer camp ) could offer. You want to be able to have the experience of planning for, packing for and heading in/setting up camp many times instead of doing that once for a 3 week campout. Yeah, the chances of a 3 week campout are rare, but you get my point. The before and after part of camping is also just as important to the scout as teh camping itself: PLC planning, patrols expressing their interest to the PL who take it to the SPL who takes it to the Sm and/or commitee. Patrols planning meals and PL's planning duty rosters. Different scouts doing the shopping/aquiring of foods. The QM having the oppertunity to inspect before/ after and making recommendations to (whoever does the buying and fixing) get stuff fixed and replaced. Granted, it's the individual scout who earns the Camping MB, but the whole troop benefits as well as the scout does. Besides, you gain experience through doing something over and over, not just doing it once for a long time. " Then, why not limit the number of MB's that can be acquired at a long term camp our limit the number of MB's that can be acquired through a council or district sponsored events? " Well.....that actually has nothing to do with the camping MB. For example, saying a scout can only earn two MB's while at a long term camp. Scout may choose swimming and Rifle. Has nothing to do with or associate with camping MB at all. The Camping MB is about camping and how often you do it and what you should be prepared for ( finding your way, what to do if somebody gets hurt, etc...) not what activities you actually do at camp. What MB's you work on at camp is a different matter all together. " A troop could get into a situation where the only camping chosen / offered by the scouts is the week long summer camps. It is easier for the adults not to pan monthly outings." Two things: While a week of camping at summer camp is definantly better than no camping at all, it is doing the bare minimum of camping and shouldn't be considered enough for a merit badge. You know what I mean? Earning a MB is the same as saying : "I am profienent in "X" catagory. I can handle my own when it comes to "X" catagory" , not a "I've done that once or maybe even twice." proclamatuion. And the scouts should be planning the camping trips with some adult guidance - only where necessary - . I'd be willing to bet that a troop that only camps that one week at summer camp is because of adult planning.

"I can't require my den leaders to attend that round table for those knots." You are right, you cannot require that, but BSA can. And no doubt there are certain times that special circumstances do require us to call the scout office and explain why we thing somebody has earned the knot due to a specific sitaution not adrdressed in any book. But that's why we call the scout office. " Round table isn't useful or productive." I'll argue that one two. Ours are great. I have no doubt nor am I disillusioned to think everybody elses are great too. I have no doubt whatsoever that many suck and are indeed useless. But that is an indication of your district's RT program and not RT's in general.

BSA24, "The standard for requirements is "do your best." It is not "meet the requirements exactly as written perfectly." That has always been the standard in scouts." No, that is the standard in CUB SCOUTS and it is for the Cub SCouts, not adult leaders. When it comes time for adult award knots, the standard is "MEET THE REQUIREMENTS " On the progress recording sheet( for Wolf/ Bear) it says : " Do 5 of the following" Not do your best at, try to do, do as much as you can, etc.... I earned the Unit Leader of Award of Merit a month or two ago. I earned the CubMaster Award and the Cub Scouter Award 8 Days ago. I didn't do my best at meeting the requirements, but met them and exceeded them. Went to every RT but 1 in the past two years. Went to Pow Wos also for two years. Exceeded the minimum requirements in all catagories and exceeded some by a long ways. Granted, I would have done exactly what I did even if there was no award - I didn't do it for the knots..I did it because it is what I did for the boys. Just saying......for adult knots, YPT, position training, WB, etc.....it's meet the requirements. "Do your Best" is a cub scout ideal, not boy scouts, not adults.

First year, I was on committee, then I was an ADL, then a DL, then the last two years, I was CM. Being CM probably helped alot with my also being an ASM _ As CM, I was involved with my son in Cub Scouts, but was not his "direct contact" leader. Although I was in the pack, my son had alot of freedom....which is still going strong in the troop setting. My son is now in te troop, and I am also in the troop, but I am also still with the Pack as an ACM. I found a great guy to take over as CM. He was a Tiger Dl years ago with his first sone, stepped back into the role afer his Bear year when his second son became a Tiger. Stepped back into that role when his 3rd son became a Tiger. I had just spent a year helping our CC gain experience and to think outside the box.He has 2 more years to go before he crosss out . I have set into place the next 3 years worth of Tiger den leaders too: Next years Tiger DL was this years Tiger ADL. Year after that, the Tiger DL will be this years 2nd year Webelos DSL. The year after that will be this years 2nd year Webelos ADL. This is working our great for the pack to have an experienced DL in Tigers. Instead of having to fiund somebody/anybody, we have the DL in place. This gives us an advantage in being able to identify the the Tiger ADL or the next years ADL's early on. Next year, I will step completely out of the pack setting, but will go without any qualms or worries. But as for parents moving with up their scouts, that is the norm.

"Is the show worth the price of admission?" If you are thinking about an individual event, then no, not worth it. But when you look at the total time overall in years...yep! Definantly worth it. I am lucky in that my son and I ( yes, I joined the troop too) joined a troop right as a transition is about to take place. Instead of just driving somewhere and camping, we are about to start hiking in and out from our camps. We are planning a couple small hikes to get them condituoned, then we are looking forward to hiking in to a campsite, making a night of it, then waking up and hiking to the next campsite, making the night of it, then the next day hikin g to a 3rd spot for pick up to return home- without ever being at any one site twice during the event. Looking to get the boys more patrol oriented. We camp at a council camp at our adopted site, and adults are seperate from trhe troops, but the site isn't big enough to do a real seperation of patrols. They might group together as a patrol, and be seperate by 15 fet or so, but they all still cook under one shelter at the same time. I would like to see each patrol in their own area including any lessons the SPL or PL has planned instead of always having a "one big group" type of event that doesn't necessarily work with different ages and different ranks working on different things. If this transitiuon works out as planned, then there is no doubt that the price is such a major bargain and definantly worth it! Glad to be a scouter!

So I'm wondering why nobody has asked "Why" there is a limit to just one long term camping instead of just counting 20 days. I figure that it's because they want the scouts to get variety. Instead of knocking out all the camps at 3 or 4 sittings, you have to go more often. Kinda under the idea that the journey is more important than the destination. It's not that you went to a campiing spot, but that you went camping alot...at different times and places. Maybe the heat of summer, cool of fall, the chill of early winter and then winter. Maybe the flipping back and forth of spring.

So I'm wondering why nobody has asked "Why" there is a limit to just one long term camping instead of just counting 20 days. I figure that it's because they want the scouts to get variety. Instead of knocking out all the camps at 3 or 4 sittings, you have to go more often. Kinda under the idea that the journey is more important than the destination. It's not that you went to a campiing spot, but that you went camping alot...at different times and places. Maybe the heat of summer, cool of fall, the chill of early winter and then winter. Maybe the flipping back and forth of spring.

Yeah, I hate not getting responces as well. As a CM, I do have to remind myself though...not every pare4nt views scouting or puts it on the same level as I do. So heres one thing I learned over the last 4 years: Do not expect "NO / Not going " responces. You hardly ever get that answer. If they are not going, they won't tell you they are. Now as for families planning something that same weekend..well, sorry, just because you had it on the calendar for 2 monthd doesn't mean anything. We have families that get two - one week vacations a year. They usually have an annual trip to "X" every year at the same time. Might be one of our campouts is that weekend and we posted it 4 months ago. Guess what, in level of priority, the pack will lose out. Honestly, If I only had a certain time of year I could take a vacation, or had been planning a long time to go to a particular place for a particular event/ time frame...and then a scouting event was planned at the time - even as CM, I would miss it. Don't get me wrong, scouting IS my hobby. It's what I do and what I enjoy. But some parents have other hobbies that take presidence over scouting: Hunting, fishing, NASCAR races family trips , etc... And all of those are time specific for certain seasons, destinations, temperature, dates available, ect..... Just saying, you may have planned out 12 months, but those families may have planned it out 15 months ago. So i have to ask though: How long have those families been in your pack? What rank are the scouts? Could be theyb just don't want to camp in a park in town..Could be that the scouts really do want to do it, but the parents are thinking something else. My wife's idea of roughing it is a hotel room without the efficiency kitchen in it and no pool. Might be mom has other plans. You know the old saying: "If momma ain't happy, then nobody's happy!" It's true! SO, just go with who you got, enjoy it and don't take it personal that others do not go to what you consider a Premeir event.

" I think I'll pass. No value " Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, value is in the mind of the consumer. Is this their first chance to go to camp? Is this something they have done many times before? Are these scouts into scoutinmg because it's something they 100% want, or is it a mom and dad impposed activity, or a combination of both? Back to the "Value" of camp. Again, it depends on who you ask as for what the value it is> For parents and/or leaders...it's about another oppertunity to learn and develop a scout. But mind you, in the scout's perspective, it might not have any more percieved value than taking algebra and world history. Same thing with my son and I. His definiton of value is : Cool , fun stuff that is in style/latest fad. My definition is " Something that is worth the price you pay and/or leaves a positive lasting impression( could be plain enjoyment, could be a life lesson or a new skill. Could be something that makes your job esier). So ..... "No value" may be just that to the scout. Granted, I'd try to do the: "Just give it a day or two, if you still don't like it or want to continue, you can go home. Haven't had to do that when it comes to camping, but have used it at other times. So far, son has always admitted that it was fun and better than he thought it would be. But....I will keep my word. If he does try as we agreed and find he doesn't want to continue, I'll see that he gets back home

I don't know...If the only reason he got into scouting in the fist place was because of an objective his partents set...I don't think it would be betrayal so mush as a mission. I guess it comes down to this: The scout didn't join as a favor to me or because he owed it to me. Not personal. Maybe it's not so different than me accepting a job from another company due to better pay, optons, benefits, etc.... Am I betraying my old boss or company? Since it is work, isn't my financial welfare who I really owe my loyalty to? I mean, as a leader, it would still totally suck, but if I wasn't specifically and personally the reason he joined scouting, I couldn't take it personal.

You know, I agree with SR540Beaver ........ Go talk to the principal and then the coach. Tell him you won't go around saying that football is for big dumb jocks who can't count past ten or read above Dick and Jane - as long as he stops with the wimps and gay men comments. Reminds me of the coach character John Goodman played in "Nerds". And I have felt the dissapointment you felt too. Not necessarily in scouting alone, but other places as well. Had it put into perspective by a friend who said: " You can give a homeless man money. It's a good deed regardless of where the money actually goes. Could be a bottle of liquer, or a hot meal. The kind act was the act of giving, not how the money was spent." And you know what, it's true. You gave of yourself, did a grteat thing and showed compassion. The scouts will remember that one day even if the parents blew it.

I am the "full week" leader for our troop when w go to summer camp. The SM is going for half a week and splitting it with the AC who will do the other half of the week. Can you find two adults to split/share the week? Nothing wrong with your wife going, it's just not something you would strive for on a regular basis.

Okay , having never had to filter /steralize water before, I may be in overkill mode. I would think I would do similar to Acco by first filtering big chunks with a necker or something similar. Then use the micron filter, then the steri pen, then drop the tablets. I have tasted water with the chem tablets. Not Iodine but whatever the other chemical was Granted, it was clean water before the tablet was dropped in, but it was part of a demonstration showing tha if you let the water sit for about 15 minutes or so, you could nottaste a diffeence. Maybe I am over thinking or overkilling it, but it beats the heck out of diarrhea or vomiting or worse.....

Thinking about the American Revolution.....I cannot think of anything that was an approach that recognized the interests and decision-making structure of the person or group we wanted to influence Apparently we failed in our attempt? Just saying, it seems like there is confudion between " his way of doing it" and "wether we agree with what he was trying to do". Eve if you don't like what he was trying to bring about doesn't actually have anything to do with what he's trying to bring about. In this particular case, is there ANYTHING he could do to change BSA's policyt? Anything at all? Kinda like trying to convince the Pope to become athiest. There isn't any argument or methood that will make the Pope change his mind, but that doesn't mean somebody won't go about it the right way. Sometimes, you can do everythiung just right, but it still doesn't work out the way you want.

"I've come to believe that when you say in your posts that it's not about you, it's about you " Nah, mot me. I'm not shy or bashful at all. I am just saying that up til a few weeks ago, everything and anything I knew about swim checks came from reading about it or a 2nd person accounts. Still don't know what it's like showing up at camp and having to do it with400 other scouts right after you get there. But, knowing from my experience how some scouts tend to be more shy, timid or reserved about doing things in front of others.....well, I now know that swim checks are a big, big "in front of everybody" event. When I found out I was going to be the first person in the water....I was : "Sweet! I don't have to wait an hour or two before I get to go and then head back home!" Yeah, everybody was watching me. But that don't bother me. I am ..was a CM, and camp promoter, and round up emcee. I have stood on top of a pic-nic table and adressed 6 packs worth of scouts and parents at the woodworking/leather craft building while working resident camp. I wore a pink spandex catsuit and matching tutu at a pack meeting because I lost a bet with scouts. I laughed more than they did. Shay and bashful in front of people I am not! So, all I am saying is this: I do try to see things from other peoples perspective. I hear alot of stories about scouts being intimmidated by, loathing and dreading swim checks. Could be a fear of water, or could be a fear of embarassing themselves in front of a bunch of other scouts. If you are not shy, then there's nothing to it. If you are shy, I understand the nightmare that a swimcheck could be. I'm just glad I didn't blow my "rear ballast" while floating!

" Even if the scout leader is NOT at a scout event, it will be drawn up in the press!" Ain't that the truth! I could be 4 years out of scouting, get drunk, drive a car and wreck and the headlines in the newspaper would rad: " Boy scout leader gets drunk and crashes!" Everybody reading that paper will get an image of a scout leader driving around camp at 80 mph , weaving through boy scouts( who are diving away and runing for their lives) before hitting a tree which causes the vehicle to explode! Perception is a bad thing. Just the other day, I was listening to my regular morning show on radio: The T&A ( Tommy & Abbi) Morning show out of Myrtle Beach NC They had a girl in teh studio promoting an upcoming MMA fight event. The girl was of Asian decent. So anyways, one of the things she brought up was that as a MMA fighter, she sometims gets a bruise or two, some cuts and the occasional black eye. She then went on to talk about the looks her and especially her boyfriend/husband ( can't remember which it was ) will get while out in public together when she has a black eye.

Pack... I guess that once you wear the tu-tu..the bashfullness is long gone! My point was though...I can understand where a scout gets intimmidated not only by wether he might get ranked as a beginner or even a non-swimmer, but he also has all eyes on him. Now sure, not every person in the pool area was looking at me. And no doubt that out of all the people who were, most will be looking at and paying attention to thier own troop/unit/ groups after that. But, since I was the first one in most everybody in the pool area was indeed watching me. Again, I do not care, but put a scout in my place. Especially a younger, shyer , nervous scout. I can see how intimmidating that alone is. Now add to the fact that he is also trying to show his ability. What are all the other guys thinking? What if he ranks lower than everybody else? What if he gets non-swimmer? What if he can't even finish? Will everybody laugfh at him? Pick on him? Make fun of him? Now, I am not saying that swim checks are bad, nor should they do away with them. All I am saying is this: From my observation at the swim check..I understand the anguish and agony and intimmidation they cause people. Me? Nah, I don't care. I am the tutu man afterall!

I guess one thing that helps us is that most of our scouts are not twins or brothers. Only one set of parents ( that I know of) have two sons in scouting, in our troop. So that usually means everybody can carry at least one more scout. Being that we are in NC, about half our parents and leaders drive crew cab trucks. They have room for 5 scouts and are able to put any gear that does not go into our scout trailer, into the back of the truck, and use the full seating for scouts. I drive a regular cab, gas sucking, cranky as all get out, communist vehicle from hell that is disguised as a 1995 Ford F-150. Since I am going to be a leader at summer camp in a few weeks, I am driving our van and pulling our scout trailer. I should be able to carry 5 more passengers aside from my self. Given that one will be my son, I can carry four more people with me. The AC is going for the first half of the week and drives a Toyota crew cab truck, so he can carry 3 more with him aside from his own son( SM will be there for second half of week and dives a van/SUV thingy). Two more leaders who drive crew cabs are going, so they can carry 3 more scouts aside from their own sons also. Right now, that give us seating for 17 scouts. As far as I know, only 15 are going to this particular camp( Camp Bowers - Cape Fear Scout Reservation) while another 16 will be going to Camp Boddie next week or the week after. Our CC drives an airplane...Ooops..... I mean a Lincoln Town Car, so she could fit 5 more scouts into the car aside from herself if need be. Our treasurere drives a Crown Vic, so that means that she could also take 5 more with her too if need be. So anyways, as I said before - we haven't had to cancel anything yet, but we do make the threat that if we are in a position that many scouts could not make a trip just because we couldn't get enough drivers - then we will not go on that trip. At what point do we decide that this scout or that scout is not worthy or that another scout is more worthy of a trip? Not saying that we cancel because one scout cannot attend. I am saying that if we have 17 scouts who are planning on going, have permission slips, have had meetings and PLC meetings before hand, have made plans abouit this for a while, and suddenly we only end up the transportation for 10 or 11 scouts...then we will not go. If it was a case of a scout not going because of some other circumstances, we are not going to cancel a trip. And if circumstances work out where a leader is showing up later ( just say because of...work ) , and that is the only ride the scout can get ...we have the parents fill out and sign an circumstance specific permission form so the scout can go. You know...parent gives " name here " - as a friend of the family - permission to carry son to and possibly from scout activity. Again, not something that has happened yet, nor is it something we strive for, but we have a plan in place if it does.

Went to my first swim check tonight. WEll wait, let me correct that. Participated as a swimmer in a swim check tonight. This was actually the second swimcheck I attended. Of course , being a newbie, I didn't know ( during the first check) that leaders did it too, so I showed up in blue jeans and t shirt and flip flops. Anyways, went to swim check tonight to make up for my not getting checked last time. Since one of the few people who wee not immediately local to the poo( 30 miles from my house) I was lucky in that I got to go first. That did not bother me at all. But I was completely aware of the fact that ALL eyeswere on me, All 400 and something another number of them. Again, I am not shy in this regard, but I do see why and how many scouts get locked up and loath swim checks. Not every scout is okay with all eyes on him. The stress of dong well is already bad enough, but add in that everybody is whatching you, andf that they could see you ckoke, lock up or just fail the swim check ...well man, I totally understand it. I am a good swimmer myself. Not a Michael Phelps by any means, but can handle my own just fine - thank you very much. So I'm not completely sure why I was the only one doing it when I did it, but after I went, they started doing 5 scouts at a time in 5 different lanes. Anyways, just a little bit of insite and learning....which I do value, by the way.

Well, maybe I should have said: That is the threat we use....so far we haven't had to cancel