Scoutfish

"What's so tough about doing a Go-See-It? " Can be lots of reasons: Sometimes, it's hard enough to get home from work, get the boys fed and make sure homework is all done, then out the door and to the meeting on time. Alot of the places we go for go see it's do not have ample parking room for much more than the employees that work there. Our local FD is less than 2 blocks away, but they never designed a parking are to accomidate 12 cars from parsnts visiting at one time. Sheriff's Dpt is over 35 miles away ( down the interstate) so having a deputy come to the CO and bring a police dog with him to run around outside the CO is just as good. Alot of police depts and sheriff's dept no longer allow people to go inside the holding areas any more due to issurance andf safety reasons. Besides, you don't really want your scouts interacting with inmates do you? Being able to experience a visit to a fire or police station is great fun for boys. Absent a good reason, they are being short changed if they don't get to go." See above. Look at it this way also: How many of these scvouts ever see a fire truck up close at home? How about the inside of a police car while at home? How about an ambulance or military humvee( military parents are awesome resources!) So, even though having a visitor come to the CO isn't as cool as going to the visitors place of occupation, it is definantly way above and beyond what a scout gets otherwise on a normal day. Do your best. But also make compromises when the alternative is not being able to do a go see it.

I'm not saying you just sign them off for showing up. But as Tigers, I don't hold them to the same standfards I hold Webelos Scout. Each year, the progression of what is expected get higher. As Tigers, It's more about getting used to being there and doing stuff. This is a "intro" level of scouting. Kinda notice they still have parents with them? Just saying, you can cut them alot of slack at this point. Besides, you cannot really hold a TIger any more responcible for what they have done than you can hold the4 DL and parents responcible. They are not of the ability to go beyond what their parents & DL will lead them in. Know what I mean? Tey are not of the mind set to think: "WEll, the DL only did this, but the book says I should do this much more." They take what you tell them and require of them as the gospel.

Jeffrey H, "There is no future re-testing to determine if "they really earned it." Yeah I know. When you qouted me as saying: " So anyways, here we are: I have a Boy who really shouldn't have been given his AoL. I say given, not earned." ....you left out the very next line where I also said: " Now here's the thing: I am not going to challenge him, his parents, his former DL or anybody about his AoL. That's done and over with. Will not benefit anybody if I do."

CHLees3rd, Yeap! Every meeting starts at exactly 7pm-ish sharp with colors. They recite The Pledge of Allegiance, recite the Scout Oath, then recite the Scout Law. They breakaway by patrol and do patrol stuff until 8pm. They play games until 8:15 or so, then we all gather for flag retirement, troop announcements from PLC, then troop announcements from SM, CC etc... Then we circle up for presentation of any awards or rank earned by the scouts. So yeah, the oath and law are something that we all do every week.

The Oath example I gave was something that happened just before the AoL ceremony....but not the only thing he is having an issue with. He doesn't / can't name any parts of the scout badge either. He also has trouble tying a square not too. Well, he will tie it, ask : "Is this it?" , but before you answer, he will untie it and tie a different one and ask if that's it also. Well, it's not that he can't tie it, he can, he just couldn't recognize it from another knot - which is definantly better than not knowing it all. The problem here is, when the SM presented 3 more badges at the troop meeting, he asked : "Where's my badge?" Innocent enough question, but dad wonders the same thing. Dad was Cm of neighboring pack, so dad of all people should understand if you ask me. He may be in Cub Scouts ( as am I) but he is in a position he should be able to look at his son's scout book and see what needs to be done.

Yeah, IU amgoing to go along with Basementdweller on thsi one. If they don't have uniforms, I wouldn't sweat it at all. If you can get a room full of 1st grade boys to actually do something, and do it as a group..That's impressive enough. Now, I am not one to just say we talked about a fire truck, so you count it as a go see it. Not even close to teh same. BUT...Having a Tiger parent who is a paid or volunteer fireman or used to be is close enough in my book. As long as the important knowledge is passed on. Our Tiger Dl looked at his Tigert den, realized whaty a major undertaking it would be to do a go see it, so ended up having a sheriffs deputy and a K-9 dog come to the Co and shared a "come see me" with the Woif den. Tiger yer is more about getting used to being a cun scout. Next year though, time to crack the whip and start getting serious about having fun ...if you know what I mean!

Okay, I learned a bunch due to this thread. But in your case, I would say: "As long as the scouts are being respectful, and trying to do a good job..let it be what it is. The next time a random person tells you you are supposed to/not supposed to do [ fill in the blank ] , tell him to give you the Title, chapter, and article numbers to prove it.

Okay, a few of you know that I am now also working with a troop as an ASM. I was assigned to the newest patrol. What I have been doing right now is just checking boys off when they prove they meet the joining requirements. Also checking off Tenderfoot too. As is right now, all but one of the new scouts have earned the Scout rank. Now here is what is going on: Without explicitly saying so, the boy, his parents and his former CM ( from another pack - not mine) feel like he showed that he knew it during hie time as a Webelos, so we should just go ahead and check him off. They also allude to the fact that Cub Scouts says you only have to "Do your best". This is where I am taking a stand. I tell them that Boy Scouts is not Cub Scouts. You either do it or you don't. Well specifically, you can either demonstrate it or you can't. Truth be told, this boy did not know this stuff at the AoL Ceremony that was put on by our Pack. More iside info: Since some boys from a neighboring pack were going to join our sister troop as were our boys, and since I had it set up so that the OA and OA dance team were going to be there, I invited them to join us in a joint AoL/ Crossover ceremony. So anyways, at the AoL, this boy said he did not know the Scout Oath. I asked him if he knew the "Boy Scout Promise" and he said yes. At the time, I figured it to be a simple case of being nervous and that he just called the Scout Oath by Scout Promise. I am now thinking he thought I meant Cub Scout Promise. NOw I am of the opinion that his den was slid right through. Maybe they kinda knew it, maybe they talked about it. Maybe the DL was just ready to have ALL the boys through since the DL's boy was also part of that den and crossed into our troop. Maybe the DL felt pity? I don't know. So anyways, here we are: I have a Boy who really shouldn't have been given his AoL. I say given, not earned. Now here's the thing: I am not going to challenge him, his parents, his former DL or anybody about his AoL. That's done and over with. Will not benefit anybody if I do. But, I am not going to "give" him his scout badge by signing off on it. Either he demonstrates the requirements or he doesn't. PHEW! So, here's my real question: Do you consider AoL to be Cub Scout level or Boy Scout level as far as "do your best" or can or can't? I consider it an award that is given to Cub Scouts who show that they are mentally advanced enough to show that they KNOW the requirements of Boy Scouts, and are therefore let in early. Kinda like advancing a grade or two in school or being one of those prodigies who go to college when they are only 15 years old. What sayeth you?

In itself, I don't have an issue with the patch...other than shape. But the thing to watch out for here is setting a precident. So how about the urban inner city troop that is next door to a gang area? WEould it be okay to have a figure of a man holding a pistol to show that this troop is AGAINST that sort of thing? Or maybe a patch with two men holding hands with a third person holding a cross and poainting agrily at the two men? So no, the patch isn't that big a deal , and ESPECIALY SINCE the patrol is primarily hispanics. But it's kinda like this: Where do you draw the line? What do you allow through? Agaian, this pareticular patch seems okay. But............ I bet we won't wait long before another patrol tries to see how far they can go,.

Yep! Red for port, green for starboard. White for stern or all around. Auqaman wore an orange shirt and green tights. Why he wore a shirt and tights is beyound me though. Could see wearing a speedo ....maybe.

"Your last post was not only lacking in ANY proof of your opinions ..." Ummm...proof of my opinion? Are you serious? If I say how I feel, then that is trhe proof of MY OPINION . When it comes to my my opinion. My word is my proof. I am the sole authority and expert of my opinion. PERIOD! But thanks for totaly avoiding answering any other question - as usual.

DLChris71, Yeah, I wanted to say saplings, but was thinking that saplings were pine trees only. Seedlings sounds mjore like a garden plant, so I juust went with baby trees.

Nah, aquatics should use orange and green. Just like Aquaman used.

Shriners American Legion Rotary Club America USO .............................................

"So, my 14 yo Scout is really stumping Mom. " You know....I have been thinking about this one ever since you first posted it. I think I finally have an answer for you: He's 14. Yes, you are welcome! Seriously though. my sonm is 11 years ols and at least 4 times a week he does, says or asks something that baffles, stumps, or makes my wife anmd I scratch our heads. Same thing could be said for my 14 year old niece, 14 year old nephew, 17 year old niece, 19 year old nephew ........ People that are between the ages of 11 and 23 will amaze you in their ability to do things without any apparant ( to us , taht is) logic, reasoning or thought. But that's okay, by the time he turns 25, the rest of us older folks will finally be smarter!

Do like summer camp: Require a pre registration for every scout attending and let him list 3 MB's that he''d like to take in oder of importance. Since you always have some who just show up and register on the day off, you have a dry erase board set up high above the registration table with a listing of slot still available in each MB class. As they get taken, erase the available number and change it to what's left. This will also help to see that next year, everybody registeres ahead of time and you can look at how many want what MB and it should help you prepare.

"Scoutfish- a program as defined in the BSA programming materials, handbooks, etc. not your own personal erroneous interpretations much like AHGMom's." Actually....speaking of erronous - If you actually read ANYTHING I wrote, you should have understand that I stated a dictionary defintion of scouting. Not my own personal definition. And the question I askd was why do YOU get the right to decide which organazation is the only program that is a scouting program? Why do you decide that BSA's program is the only scouting program? I know you used BSA's prgram as they wrote it, but BSA isn't the one making statements about other programs not being real . What makes you an authority that declares only BSA's plan is legitimate enough to be called a scouting program? And speaking of BSA being the "only real" scouting program...maybe you could your own personal hatred and bigotry aside and realize that the very program you are using as the standard just happens to think good enough of AHG to work with them and support them too. So far, on every single thread, you have not made a single statement that has any proof of what you claim. Anybody and everybody that feels oposite of you is attcked by you and insulted by you. The only comment that was barely even remotely close to insulting you back, was from SR540Beaver, and you deserved it > Give proof or shut up and drop it!

What we did was somewhere in between what you want and what beasement said. WE had our hike. We started out talkinmg about...whatever. That slowly turned into telling jokes. Which soon became seeing who could answer riddl;es. After a while, it became a scout knowledge triva contest. Wasn't planned, wasn'r thought out..just happened. Things like knowing the scout oath, motto, slogan, parts of the badge. Talked about all kinds of stuff in a very casual way. Along the way, we'd spot some small vines, plants and ( for loss of correct word) baby trees. I'd ask: "Is that poison ivy?" Whatever answer they would give me, I'd ask why. So, we went over stuff, but we did it in a non testing way. We didn't have aspecific agenda either. Just whatever came up as ity came up.

How about a festive compromise? Red and Green?

" How do yeh actually "schedule the activities a scout needs" for First Class, when what a scout needs for First Class are skills, not activities? " Well it depends..... How often does your troop meet? How often do they camp? How often do they do stuff in the community? What does your family do outside of scouting? My troop is set up so that every scout will have an oppertunity to go camping at least once a month. Usually there are two oppertunities each month that one is tied in with a service project. Figuring in things like Thanksgiving and Christams, and the month that you go to summer camp. and even Jambo....the boys will have a chance to go camping at least 21 times a year. So a really dedicated scout could go camping at least 21 times just at the troop level .This is not counting Jambos. camporees, summer camps, other special events. I imagine in reality though, that most of the scouts go camping 13 or 14 times a year at the troop level. Friday evening through Sunday morning works out to two days/two nights. That works out to 48 days and nights of skill practicing. Again, not counting Jambo, camporee summer camp, etc..... We do two camporees a year. Friday night til noon Sunday. That adds 4 more days/nights of scouts cooking, setting up camp, practicing skills. We are in the middle of an oyster shell recycling program where the boys are bagging shells one day, then camping out near the waterway next to where the boats load up the shells and then take them to the new bed sites. They cook their own supper and breakfast. Lunch is more like a snack that a real meal. Of course, there are not always that many service projects available. In that case, they go camping just for the sake of camping. Skills are used during these times with a part of the day set aside for teaching new skills in a new area. Right now, it's geocaching as our camporee coming up is a geocaching event. That means that even the scout rank are learning about using a gps - and this particular camporee has events that will require just a compass and map without any gps device - they are learning orienterring too. So, alot of the skills are not being taught, but demonstrated to the scouts by higher ranking scouts, and then being used by all while out camping and in the field. Will this cover every single element of every single requirement? Probably not, but isn't that where troop and patrol competitions come in? If all goes well, you will never have to use what you learnd in first aid, but the competitions are as close as you may ever get until something does happen. So now, it all depends on the scout . How much is up to him. Some boys are real self motivators. Some are probably parent( no driver's license til you get Eagle) driven. Other just take it casual. So, if a scout wants it, it's doable.

Eagle92, No offense taken. So far, what I have done as a leader is sit back, watch what the boys are doing with the troop guide and occasionally, the SPL. The last few minutes or so, I will remind them to tell their parents of upcoming stuff. I can already see that hardly any info makes it back to mom or dad until 5 minutes before the event/activity that is supposed to happen - actually takes place. With most of them having earned the scout badge( yeah, You'd think AoL would garrantee that one), I ask them about 15 minutes before colors if they have been going over what is needed, paper work, med forms, etc... I am also reminding them that they need to come up with a patrol yell and flag to go along with their patrol name : Pythons Other than that, myself and 3 other ASM's pretty much tell jokes, talk about ways to create the next BBQ grill masterpiece and the pros and cons of french press coffee over campfire perculated coffee ( I prefer the latter).

Never was part of the UP myself, But I do like thinks to be right or really close. In your case - if the troop numbers are the same - I'd say screw it and go ahead and buy the green and tan ones. Sure, even though the info was conflicted, we do know now what it was "supposed" to be. But there is also the real world of uniforms too. If the biggest issue you have is that the numbers are the wrong color...you have it made!

Scoutnut, Thank you, that made alot of sense. As for "you" - just a general term. "You" is the scout, "you" is the Pl or SPL. It wasn'r ever a plan laid out for all the boys. Each scout should have his own plan. My troop camps at least once a month, sometimes two, but we know that every scout cannot be on every campout. No way all the boys could camp at the exact same campouts all the time. Plus I do know that some boys learn and advance faster than others. I just downloaded some guides to give them an example of how they could do certain requirements when on a weekend campout. It wasn't even an entire FYFC plan or checksheet. It was just an intenary of a weekend campout showing how certain requirements are/can be met just from going on campouts on a regular basis. Anyways, You did answer my question . Thanks! Mark

What exactly is a scout anyways? " scout/skout/Noun: A soldier or other person sent out ahead of a main force so as to gather information about the enemy's position, strength, or movements. Verb: Make a search for someone or something in various places. " Accoriding to the definitions above from dictionary.com, BSA is not scouting or a scouting program either. But to say : " but I am referring specifically to the BSA scouting program in the USA. " Is the same as saying: "Does it meet my own personal defintion of what I consider to be scouting? " But using the verb of scoutingf, I would say that: YES! AHG is a scouting organazation by the definition and by THIER views. Here's my question: Why the big ole fight against AHG? nWhy does it get under you skin so bad? Why is it so personal to you? If you don't like it, don't be a part of it? Why insult everybody who has a different opinion of you? That isn't reflective our BSA's scouting program either!

"Fish what I think folks are trying to get across to you is that it is not up to YOU to use, or not use a FYFC schedule/line-up/etc. " Yes I agree, they are doing just that. "It is not up to YOU to slow down achievement, or to concentrate on one rank at a time." Yes, I know that. I have said several times that I am not pushing or holding anybody back. I said that I will work with the scouts at their own rate and work with them as fast as THEY WANT . This is not my schedule, it was not my decision, I did not make the choice. As far as a documnet, I looked at a few random ones online, and they were all different. Each one had a troop header , so I know they were individual troop plans, not a BSA plan. Never thought otherwise. I was just looking at them to get an idea and I printed out several different ones that I could show the boys to help them when THEY make up THIER schedule with the help and guidance of THIER troop guide. So, the scouts were asked as by the SM of the troop - while they were still Webelos and not part of the troop (while checking out several troops)- if that was something they wanted to do, or if they wanted to do something differently. Then he even discussed several other ways of doing tings. The BOYS decided that the FYFC sounded good. At that time, I was not a member of the troop either, so I had absolutely no part in that discussion. I only observed as a CM and as a parent of one of the boys. And the SM asked the parents to be there .....in case somebody has a percieved "helicopter parent" issue with that. Now, if the scouts decide that FYFC is what they want to do, I am going to go along with that and help them along the way with encouragement. I will not push them harder, I will not steer them,. I will offer encouragement just like I do with any other part of scouting. *** This is the actual , real honest to goodness question I am asking you guys!!! Don't interpret it to mean anything about an offical BSA document or that it is my plan or idea or that I am pushing any boy!!! I have not made a plan or schedule. Never said or implied that I did. *** QUESTION: If one or more boys, or even all change their minds, could you still follow the plan but just slow it down. Instead of it being a 12 month ( or so ) plan, could you stretch it out longer ..say 2 or even 3 years and just advance one rank at a time? RECAP: I am not running this. I am not deciding it for them. I know this is not cub scouts, I NEVER had any plans or ideas to have them all advance on a strict schedule or at the same time. Anybody who thought so put that into the question themselves as I never said that was what I thought or was doing. So, thanks to your answer to the actual question I am asking. Aside from that, I am glad of the replies you gave as they would straighten out/reign in a Webelos III ASM. I think what you guys have written should be a part of the parent part of a boy Scouts handbook and to be signed by the parents as proof they read it when a boy joins a troop. Matter of fact, with very minor changes, it should be part of a cub scouts application where parents sign off permission for thier son to join.