Scoutfish

At first, I would have definantly said that the MBC was adding to the requirements. But after reading a few comments, I started looking at it from a different angle. So here's my conclusion - which is the same as most everybody elses - but in my own words 1) As aMBC myself, I can choose who I want to work with. I may decide that I will only work with scouts who are working on Eagle rank. Maybe I will only work with those who are starting at Star. My choice. I can say that you have to be Eagle candidate or Star candidate to have

So not only does stuff not add up, AND dad says it's a misunderstanding, but then the check discrepancy from the store too? Uh-uh..dosn't look to good for dad. So, what's up with the unit number? Was it 3524 in some sort of fancy Star Wars lettering?

WEll yeah, I'm sure everybody thinks the states should stay out of marrage licenses and such. Aside from the consequenses of brothers and sisters having kids, I can't really see states wanting to be invovled other than two reasons: 1) $$$$$ 2) Control by a majority wanting to impose their "moral" views. And back to the brother and sister offspring: well, lack of marrage isn't stoping them from procreating no more than saying bankrobbery is illegal stops banks from getting robbed. So, the states get to collect a tax for applying for a marrage license. Then of course, it's only good for so any days, and depending on state to state...In my state, you have to be married in the county that you apply for the license in. Not a biggie, but depending on where you want to get married and time schedules..... So then that leaves control based on what the voting majority ( as compared to actuall majority who may not take time to vote) wants. And don't get me wrong: Majority vote should have alot of weight behiund it in most things, but not everything. If the old school Mormans had their way, polygamy would be legal. If majority had their say, slavery could still be legal. Know what I mean? In some subjects, majority vote shouild be told to mind their own buisness. My sex life. My religious views. My choice of music. Those are some examples of when majority opinion can kiss my butt. Should be the same way for you too. What if popular vote suddenly decided that the Catholic church wasn't really a true church because of all that crap with the molestations of the male youth and the following coverups all the way to the Vatican. What if public outrage was so intense that an amendment was drawn up and people voted that being Catholic was no longer a valid religion in the US? Wouldn't you tell us to kmiss your butt? WEll, you should...if trhat did indeed happen. But continuing on, suppose that people said that the church preached one way, but acted another way, therefore didn't actually follow it's own core beliefs, therefore, the majoity of peole decided that any and all laws, rules or even religious issues based on Catholic teachings no longer applied. Suppose some Baptist person comes along and says that the Catholic interpretation of Marrage was contrary to and insulting to what his version of what marrage meant. Especially with all the divorces that shouldn't happen or annulments ( which is more like a moral loophole) that did. Would you still advocate for somebody getting to claim what the real definition of what the word meant? Would majority rule still apply or even be fair? Nah, sure wouldn't. NOw, I'm not even thinking of the states and benefits. My isue ios with any one group ( wether yours, mine or the next guy's) deciding that they and they alone get to decide and claim ownership to a word or phrase. In my owm mind, a real marrage is a state of mind and commityment between two people. Doesn't include the state or any paper licese or permit. Doesn't include what anybody outside the two people might think. DOesn't include any religious invovlement outside of what the couple's religion states. The actual wedding ceremony isn't even the real marrage. It is only a rite or ceremony to show that the two people have committed to each other. The real marrage is a state of mind between two people. Ands no laws of man will ever change that. Nobody ele's religious viws will ever change that. NOw as for benefits..well in matters of insurance or coverage or such,...if the people are willing to pay the premiums, fees and what not..I say let them have at it. Why should I care if you want to pay extra to cover another man, woman or even your dog for that matter. You are paying for it, not me. Knock yourself out! It's your wallet!

By the way: NO MORE JOKES! All jokes at some point, require a person, a group ( wether based on race, nationality, religion, work, ethics, party affiliation, education, hobbies, gender, etc...) to be the brunt of the joke. That is disrespectful and insensitive to that person, group, etc... That is derrogative and demeaning to that person, faith, group, etc... and will no longer be tolerated. Don't even smile anymore as somebody may - in their perception - think you are thinking of a joke that could be embarassing, humiliating, derogitory, insulting or offensive in any other way towards them. And, since only their perception applies, you are already guilty. Sure, you don't care about their perception, ( and neither do I really) but we already learned that only their perception counts or matters. By the way the ACLU couldm aways use some good volunteers to go out and educate everybody about what should offend them, and how they are wrong if it doesn't.

" It's a good thing I don't care about your perception." And isn't that one of the bigger problems here? "If I decide something is "X":, then it is "X" no matter what!" You are making your own opinion an exact definition of "X" But what about all the people who ( on both sides of a parnk) do not consider it hazing? If the outnuber you, are they all wrong because your opinion is different? I am not saying there is no such thing as hazing. Matter of fact, I do not believe I ever gave a specific example of where what you call hazing should be called a prank. But what I did say was that you cannot lump all pranks as hazing. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it hazing. And lets be real, in the last page or two of posts, we made big strides in that hazing was pretty much defined as intentionally and willfully doing something to cause hard feelings, embarassment or anguish. WOW! Sounds like there is alot of hazing going on in the site, no? By some people who (in their own opinion) are fine examples of scouters and following the scout oath and law. But lets get back to that comment: " It's a good thing I don't care about your perception." LIkewise, I can say the same thing. So far, the very minor pranks and jokes I have played have resulted inlaugter all the ay around and including the victim too. Nope, weren't no snipe hunts, no paddling initiations, no tattos, burning or swallowing of fish. At a pack meeting, after a particular den would stand up front, I'd ask the scouts if they could pass the official physical scout test: Rub your belly with one hand while patting your head at the same time with thge other. 99% of the scouts I ask cannot do it. I knew they wouldn't be able to do it. It got laughter from all the parents and other scouts. It got smiles from the boys trying too. Next den goes up, same question. Next den, and next. Everybody got a laugh out of it. Including all the victims. Alot of them planed on asking class mates at school if they could pass the " X" grade Test. Every now and then, a scout who practiced would say so at a following pack meeting and show us he could do it. Hazing? Absolutely not. Humiliated? Nope! Traumatized? Not the slightest bit. But, since it brought out laughter at the time of the initail pranks, I guess it is hazing. Because that is how it was defined by a few people who do not care what anybody or everybody else thinks. Basically it comes down to this: "If I am offended, then EVERYBODY else MUST BE offended as well. Even if they weren't. NOw, I do have to ask: In this day and age, who hasn't heard of snipe hunting anyways? I am surprised that prank works on anybody any more. That's how I never got conned into it: I knew what it was before I would have been trusted to be put in that situation anyways. I knew about snipe hunting before my parents allowed me to go out that late or for that long alone with friends. I guess I was shortchanged in not getting that trauma, Luckily, I was born with a great sense of humor and can enjoy the humor in both sides of a parnk, practical joke or funny situation.

Yeah, I have to say again, I'm not gay, not do I plan on marrying a gay person. BUT......if I was gay and wanted to get married, I would simply say this: I am not getting married in the snese that others use the owrd or take it to mean, but rather, I would be getting married in the way I take it to mean. I'd be using my definition. And this is the core of my beliefs: My beliefs are no more or no less valuable than anybody elses beliefs. My beliefs do not get to override or trump anybody elses beliefs in the world and the government owes it to me and every other citizen to make sure that laws do not make my beliefs more predominant than yours. Especially when it comes to religious beliefs or morals. Marrage is defined as a union between a man and a woman. So what about a "marrage wall"? Am I now insulting or cheapening the meaning of marrage when I use marrage to describe inanimate objects? If you are married, can you no longer have "date nights" since that because you are married, you are no longer dating. Married people dating would ruin the sanctity of what a marrage stands for , no? So, in order to apease all single people who are planning on one day possibly getting married - married couples are no longer permitted to say date night? I know, plain absurd. But so is saying that what other people call something is too. Call it marrage, call it joining, call it bonded. Whatever. Denying the title does not deny the feelings or intention. Claiming that only you own the title is also just stupid too. People got married before christianity, so it might just be the case that the priviledge of being called married does not belong to Christians either. Maybe only Pagans or Norse have the right to be called married. Maybe it actually belongs to the Romans or Celtics. Could be you are actually engaging in a Druid ceremony. Now, my wife and I......we are married by act and by our feelings for each other, not bay name of the ceremony. You can call it a " Dress up and spend alot of money then eat barbeque pig afterward" party and it will change nothing but the name, not what it stands for, or what it means to my wife and I. Matter of fact, you can call it anything you want...doesn't change what we feel for each other or how we treat each other.

Okay, I NEVER saw where SP said the CC was going to be replaced..especially by SP. What I did see was SP stating that the CC needed some prodding because - frankly, the CC was just sitting on his/her butt and doing nothing. The CM holds a meeting and it goes great, so we realize that it's not the entire comittee or leadership that doesn't care, just that they hace noty had comittee meetings that the CC is usually in charge of holding and presiding over. So SP asks, Is it time for " Plan B ", and if so, what should " Plan B " be. Then it is mentioned by another poster that the pack needs a new CC. And it's obvious that the pack does need a new CC. So as a unit commissioner for a failing pack that is about to go under, I believe that Seattle has not only the right to suggest to the CM and COR ( as well as committee members) that they need to find a new CC, But I think as a fellow scouter - who is not only experienced with scouting, but as trhe UC also - that SP owes it to the pack to make any and all suggestions that will help the pack out. No need to create a "white elephant" type atmosphere where everybody walks around a dysfunctional CC . Drop the existing CC and get a new one. But of course, we are talking about the pack committee and leadership doing this with the blessing of the COR - which is exactly how I took SP's post to mean. I never once saw where SP said he was going take it upon himself or that he thought it was his job to do so. But it is his job to suggest it when it is blatantly obvious that , that is the only option available when the current CC just dosen't or cany do the job as required to be done. Remember, scouting is for the scouts, not for the sake of some person who doesn't even try to do anything.

"I suppose you only have to call them forward, get a good laugh while they stutter, stammer and wet their pants, then everyone goes home. " WEll, it was already said above, only the scouts perspective matters. And the scout may very well think that the only reason we got together was to humiliate him. It was said above that our real reason or intent didn't matter. So , even though the reason we call him up actually has nothing to do with what the scout thought...only his perception matters. You do know at that age, youth do forget that everything is not about them or how they see it. "I've asked this a couple times and no one has addressed it, but am I the only one who sees a difference between a real part of the program which MIGHT have the potential for causing stress or embarrassment versus some stupid game where the WHOLE PURPOSE is to cause stress or embarrassment?" WEll, see, we HAVE answered in this thread and the past ones. But you just lump everything into hazing. SO, here is my answer: WE do not do stuff with the intent of purposely humiliating scouts and hurting their feelings. But sometimes, it unintentionally happens. We are seeing grand schemes that will have us all laughing and enjoying the camradieri of each others company. But guess what, sine we are not psychic, we sometimes assume things wrongly. Somebody takes things differently than what we INTENDED . THings do not happen with the outcome we expected. Sp let me propose this differently, I have been on events similar to snipe hunts. I was the subject of the prank. I was the one who was red in the face...for about a minute, before I was laughing with everybody else. And at that point, I was just like everybody else. No longer a newbi or green, if you will. I have been sent looking for board stretchers, sky hooks, and chain stretchers( which are actually real, by the way) At the very moment the prank happens, I may not laugh my ass off, but after a few minutes, or even an hour later, I can laugh and appreciate the event as I can see the humor in it and I also know what the intent was. Okay, look at it this way: One fine Saturday morning, your 5 year old son decides to make you toast and cereal, and a glass of juice. So you have breakfast...except the toast is burnt a little bit. One piece has way, wat too much butter on it while the other barely has any. The cereal bowl is overflowing and spilling milk while the cereal is almost non existant. Then you go into the kitchen. Cereal on the counter, on the floor, in the sink and even in the dog's fur. Milk everywhere too. Juice ....well..he turned the jug of juice upside down while filling your glass so there is half a gallon of OJ on the counter top and floor where he filled up your 8 oz cup. Butter all over the counter and the dog is licking the butter knife he dropped. So, what you really have a is a big ole mes to clean up. But would you say your son really just made a big mess and nothing more? Would you say his intent didn't matter because - you being the one has to clean it up - only your perception matters? Would you say his whole intent was to make a mess? WEll, you could, but all you'd really doing is using an arrogant amount self centered biased vision. NOw, I'm not saying we could kidnap first year scouters and hang them by their feet from a flag pole while pulling their pants down, but saying that just because a person takes something wrong or doesn't share the same humor make it hazing is just biased. And wrong. There is a line. Vandalism is wrong. Physical pain is wront. Anything that leaves a mark is definantly wrong. Going out and purposely planning to cause humiliation is wrong. But doing something in fun and games and thinking everybody will have a laugh at the end is not the same thing. BUt lets get back to the swim check statement you made: " But off hand, can you think of any other good reasons for conducting swim tests? " So my questiuon is this: Can you think of ANY OTHER reason ( besides hazing) for pranks? Any reason at all? Even the tiniest one? Camradieri? Sense of belonging? Welcoming ? "Really, anyone feel free to chime in because 'fish apparently missed that section of Safe Swim Defense. Nah. I didn't miss that during Safe Swim Defense or Safety Afloat. But you know...the "victms" perception trumps any other reason. If he feels it's all about humiliating him, then that's all it is. Just like if he thinks CoH's are embarassing, then that's all they are for. Because you know...the entire troop probably planned and conspired along with all the ASM's and the SM and the entire committee to hold an event that purposely embarassed him! Wouldn't surprise me at all. And truth be told, I have heard more complaints about swim checks and BoR's than I have ever heard about pranks.

Saw a very interesting comment of facebok. " Claiming that someone else's marrage is against your religion is like being angry at somebody else for eating a doughnut because you are on a diet" And you know what? It's true! So what if what somebody else's idea of marrage is not the same as yours? Who gives a damn! They do not owe you anything. I do not owe youy anything. You do not owe me anything. It's just like taking a poll in here about what "real scouting" is. No matter how hardcore or better you think your idea of what real scouting is, somebody else will trump it with something better and then say your idea of real scouting is a farce and totally ruins their ideal of scouting. Another example: KUDU. He thinks WB is a total farce! COOL! That is his right! I support his right to think and feel that way. But that doesn't mean I support his right to cancel the WB course I am going to take, nor does it mean he has the right to have National not give me credit for taking WB because it dioesn't meet his ideals or beliefs of what WB really is. Now as for gay marrage or such....I don't care, Why? Because I am not gay. Not planning on being gay. As far as I am concerned, gay marrage is no more of an issue to me that snails that are borth sexes or frogs that change sex during their life. I do know this: I do not have the right to impose or expect other people to have to follow my beliefs because they are my beliefs. In NC, amendment one passed. Everyboy kept saying trhat it wasn't about being anti gay, but in fact, that is exactly what it was. Preventing gay from being able to get married because it goes against some peoples religious beliefs. It's a sad day too becaue that was exactly the reason we had a little thing called The American Revolution. We were tired of having to live under the rules of one religious belief wether we believed them or not. We wanted to be able to pursue and live out our own beliefs. No government established or respected ( as in NC's case)religious laws. And here's the deal, I do not support gay marrage nor do I ban it. I do recognize that ALL Americans have the right to live their own lives under their own beliefs and that the Constitution says that too. Do I agree with most of the stuff people of other religions think? Nope, not at all. But I do recognize that they have just as much right to live it, feel it, have it as I do. And that's only fair for everybody! And the very moment we decide that other people do not get the same rights as us, that is the very moment we become the same thing we revolted against way back when.

So basically what we are saying here is this: Anything that could possible cause somebody to be embarrassed is going to be considered hazing or bullying? Well, somebody better call National and send out the notices that camp swim checks are no longer okay, Matter of fact, no swim checks anywhere are okay any more. Why? Because it is embarassing and even mortifying for a scout to fail one or be designated a beginner or non swimmer. You know how embarassing that is? All your scouting buddies get designated swimmer while you get to splash around in anke deep water. Might as well put on a dunce hat and one of those dinosaur inflatble tubes around your waist! How about a scout that forgets his book at a BOR or EBOR? You better keep on going lect you embarssa him or cause humiliation! Matter of fact, just the idea of a SM conference, BoR or EBoR is enough to cause stres and anxiety in some youth. Better not hold any more CoH's either because some boys are scared....NO! Terrified of standing up in front of people! Cancle summer camps and any activities over 72 hours or any high adventure activity too. You know how dreadfull, embarassing and potentially scarring those "turn your head and cough" examinations are. Scouts have to cook their own breakfast? Forgetaboutit! Too stressfull for some boys! And yes, I have seen and heard complaints about everything I said said . And in the eyes of the scouts involved , they were really, really big deals that they completely loathed! And we know that what the purpose was does not matter, only how the scout involved percieved it. Even if he doesn't understand the reason for or why, or the intent behind it. NOw, you better not ever tell any jokes around, in the proximity of any scouts or parents either. You know why? Because they may think you were talking about them. Doesn't matter if you were or not....only matters if they think you are. Afterall, it's the victims perception that matters! Guilty, guilty, guilty! Trial over! No need for your side...the "victim" already spoke and shared his point of view! What if he finds out he misunderstood or was wrong? Well, he won't! Why? Because once he initially thinks he has been wronged, then everything stops and will no longer be reviewed. It will just consider to be wrong. Oh yeah, might as well stop wearing your uniform, It is intimidating to some, and others feel bad, even embarassed because they do not have the full uniform. Nope! You can't say they can but it over time or even get one from the uniform locker. That still means you are poor or can't afford a new one, which is embarassing and possibly traumatic. You know what, just go ahead and shut your unit down. I am sure at some point in time, a scout quit because he felt things were too hard, too stresfull or he just wasn't as good at scouting as another scout..in which case, he quit because he felt embarassed or in adequate as comparred to the other scouts. So, where exactly do we draw the line? Oh yead, wherever the "victim" percieves it should be drawn.

From a strictly buisness point of view, do you know how much money the scoutshop could make selling a new woman's uniform shirt with drop down pockets to facilitate breastfeeding? You could breast feed you cub scout whiole still showing your pride in BSA and wearing the Official uniform!

I am not about to say that I am even close to being the perfect boy scout parent. I'm far from it, but at the parent orientation meeting after the AoL and Crossover ceremonies were over was quite the eye opener for some. Me? I knew what Boy scoutin g was supposed to be. When the CC started talking about boys advancing on their own, at thei own pace, about boys voting and making the decision and the oppertunity to camp at least once a month, sometimes twice..and how the scout made their own menues, cooked their own food, cleaned up their own mess, etc... - you know - stuff boy scouts do....well, a couple moms were besides themselves with looks that just told you that afew of them just had a stroke! One mom even asked if her boy was allowed to go camping without her because he really just wasn't ready for that sort of thing. She looked at me and asked me what I thought about it. I said: "I think I'll see him ( my son) when he gets back!" She almost started crying. This was the mother of one of the boys who I mentioned in another thread about being drug though AoL without learning anything. The boy himself? Well....I can't blame him for his mom's and DL's actions, but if mom and the parents of the other boys from that pack had their way...it would definantly be a Webelos III experience followed by TenderWebelos and then 2nd class Webelos IV which would be followed by 1st Class Webelos V. Eventually, we would have a graduating class of Mama's Little Eagles. Luckily, there are far too many scouters who avoid this. Matter of fact, one of the hilights of this past weekends camporee was when the (could have been ) Webelos III came over to our breakfast table and started staring at our scrambbled eggs, english muffins and patries. Our CC said: "They sure look scrumdillylicious don't they?" The scout just nodded and kept starring. He then asked why they couldn't have some. The CC said: "You can have all of it you want.........when you vote for it, buy it, and cook it." Bet we see something different at the next campout!

I see DLChris71 at round tables and at a camporee/ IOLS training session. Keep meaning to start up a converaation, but we( scouters in my district) are known for getting sidetracked and having so much fun at everything we do, so we end up running over time. By the time I look up, at least half the crowd has left, and you are trying to leave because the other half will keep you there another hour if you let them.

So my troops does immediate recognition. You earn rank tonight, you will get your patch at the next meeting. At the end of the meeting when we circle up for announcements and such. Right before the SM minute. You don't get your card until the next quarterly CoH. You will also get how ever many MB's you worked on in that quarter . Scouts planned and ran the CoH. Turned out great. The only thing I did not like was all the clapping. I am not sure if I ever clapped that much at any ceremony ever before in my life. My hands were honestly red and slightly sore.

Pranks can and do go too far sometimes. Hate when it happens, but the idea of lumping all pranks as hazing is just stupid. There are tons of pranks that require one or more people to be the victem. Does not make it hazing. I guess I must be the only one who remembers as a kid , that we used to pick on each other, have contests where we out "Yo mama" each other and we'd just generally pick on each other. And even as the victem, I'd have a great laugh and have just as much funb as those who were pranking me. Thing is, you knew that they accepted you as one of the group. If they really didn't like you, they'd usually ignore you or just avoid you. Now, snipe hunting. Never been snipe hunting myself. But I have known many victems who didn't feel any malaice or that they were vitems any more or less that when they learned Santa was not real, that the boogyman didn't exist or that the tooth fairy was made up. I have been picked on and been made fun of, in jest by my friends and in all seriousness by jerks and bullies who got off on that sort of thing.. Trust me, I could always tell the difference.

You will not find a very decisive or definant answer on religious emblems with BSA. At least not the answer you are looking for. The religious emblem is only that: an emblem that BSA lets you wear on your uniform in recognition of an award earned outside of scouting. And it is just that: an outside award. BSA does not have a religious award itself, but does allow scouts to wear a knot or ribbon/medal thingy to show they have earned one in their religion. So, what you can do is gather info and requirements from each of the religions in your area ( or ones likely to be earned by your scouts) and list them in a book or manual you create . You could list the religions, the name of the corrisponding award, and what that particular religion requires to earn it. Then list the names of the person at the church who handles for that church. Kinda like a catalog or even a tour guide. That's about all you can do besides encourage the scouts to participate.

This years group crossed over in March. Last years crossed over in early April. We have had some cross over in May and some in February. Although they usually cross over together - they were a den afterall.... Some times we have 2 or 3 cross over one month, and a month or two later, the rest cross over. But as it is, we do not have a set "crossover by" date. It happens when it happens which is when the boys actually earn their AoL.

The original (KnoxDad) OP. Pretty sure he isn't around anymore, but still felt the need to post my thoughts! I agree that Fishman is doing a great thing and has a great attitude about it all.

"Now all of that might have gone in one ear and out the other but I did explain to them what scouting was about and left the final choice to them." LOL! Spoken like a true parent! High five! Okay. I may have a totally different view on what the original poster is asking: AS a parent, I want my son to grow up as a strong person, who is smart enough to see and understand life. I want him to be his owm man though. This includes his ability and right to make his own decisions and choices. Maybe he becomes a democrat or a republican. Maybe he ends up being independant. He might go top cololege for 10 years and graduate with 12 PHD's or he may do like his father and choose to work outside closer to nature and with his hands( I always hated the idea of working behind a desk - though I do see the advantages in my older age. I will allow him to play the sprt of his choice if he so chooses. I'm not gonna relive my sporting youth through him. Basically, I want him to be his own person who makes his choiced because HE MAKES THEM ON HIS OWN OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. SoMaybe he comes home one day to tell me he converted to buddism or Islam. Maybe he goes with Judaeism. Maybe he comes home and tells me he is now a Pagan or Wican. I will support him in his choice even though it may not be my own choice. Now, I am not saying that I want him do sometrhing radical or wild, but I am saying I want him to make his own choiced because they are HIS choices and not maine. I will guide him and I will encourage him and offer support. So, anyways, what I was getting at as far as the original poster was concerned is this: JUst because you are athiest and have an issue with the duty to god thing...well, is your son an athiest too? Or to be more exact, is he an athiest because he is an athiest or is he an athiest because you are? Kinda like the old "Chevy is the best because my daddy and his daddy and his daddy before him always had a Chevy!" Really? So why exactly do you like Chevy or have you never had an original thought or feeling on your own? Okay, that was more of a NASCAR thing I run into all the time, but maybe you get my point? I myself have never been big on people who decide an entire lifestyle for other people. I'd like my son to grow up sharing my beliefs, but I want him to really believe them, not just follow them because I told him to.

Chris, Nah, I didn't actually go and look, I looked online. Yeah, that can be misleading as I know that two different stores of the same chain that happen to be in different areas can and will carry different products that tie in with their area..Wal-Mart included. So online may not have a true repesentation of what an individual store has in stock. So, while In do not mind paying for a better product ( get what you pay for) I am also one of those people who will take Thrifty and push it to the limit. I won't buy a $4 bowl when a $2 one will do exactly what I need it to do.

My pack has a small trailer. It is 3 1/2 wide by 5 1/2 feet long ( not including tongue). It needs to be 6 wide by 12 long. It's a pack, we carry alot of stuff, alot of food, tables, plates, cups, utensils, etc....All the food that everybody is gonna eat. My troop has a small trailer. It is 4 wide by 6 long ( not including tongue). It carrys all the patrol boxes, plus the adult patrol ( for lack of a better name) boxes too. Each patrol has a set of cooking pots, frying pans, and a Coleman style propane camp stove . THis trialer is used for camporees, summer camps or extended camping involving service projects. When we go to the scout show, we haul display tables and such in it. When we go to camporees and have a pioneering project, it gets carried in it ( if it fits). But just for our average monthly campout, boys carry what they need on their back packs. Even if car camping, they bring their own stuff only. Never been to Jambo, but I suppose that if my troop was going to Betchel for a entire week, they would probably take the trailer because nobody is packing for just 2 or 3 days, we are talking an entire week of sleepwear, uniforms, activity specific clothing, etc..... Is a trailer a necesity? Only if it's necessary! Is it necessary? Depens on what you are doing, where you are going, and how long you will be there.

Well, I wouldn't buy a backpack off the internet. Not even from a reputible company. I want to try it for fit. I can wear "X" brand shirt in size L, but if I buy "Y" brand, I am a XL. If I buy a "Z" brand, I might be a XXL. SO I will make sure it fits and rides right. I kinda like the frying pan mess kits even though we usually have a coleman stove or DO . I like the ide that - if we ever do a flat out hiking campout and only bring what we carry - that I'm not gonna carry or rely on somebody else to carry trhe stove and the adult patrol's cooking gear. I won't have to run out then and buy it. And it wasn't so much that WalMart didn't have it, but what they had ( that I saw) was hardly better than a plastic pic-nic fork or knife. As for the bottle or canteen, the ability to be able to use a carabiner is one of my requirements. So canteen or bottle with built in loop or carabiner is a must. That falls back to the external frame backpack. Clip it and go!

I have to admit, I was not expecting to see that the scoutshop had better prices and better product selection than Wal-Mart, Dick's Sporting Goods and a local outdoor fishing/camping/hunting outfitter. SO, Wal-Mart has great prices, but not the right product. Dick's kinda sorta had some of the products, but the prices on what they had were rediculous. The local outfitter was more set up for a redneck camping weekend. I spent my first weekend camping as a straight up ASM , and not in a CM role. After nagging my son about making sure he didn't forget his mess kit, I ended up forgetting mine. Only carried one tote for camping instead of my usual 4 in the back of the truck. The best part was that I had my tent all to myself! I only worried about, only set up, and only broke down my own tent! So, I am working on the whole backpacking in and sleeping in a hammock thing, and that's why I was looking and comparing prices. Wal-Mart does not sell external frame packs. Dick's only has one. Local outfitter doesn't have one at all. Dick's sells 2, 3 and 4 person mess kits, but I'd consider them to be more of a family picnic set. Wal-Mart only sells one mess kits, but you have to find it mixed in with tent poles, gas bottle adaptors and steel camping dinner plates. Local moutfitter has $30.00 set of hand carved Jamacian Mahogany ( or something like that) plates. So, WalMart is et up for a pic-nic at the local park. Dick's is too for the most part. Local outfitter has the 5 burner camoflaged Dale Earnhardt Jr NASCAR Camping grill with 4 beer can holders on the side with bonus shotgun rack and bottle opener on the back. So, just for the hell of it, I go to the online scoutshop at BSA.org WOW! They actually had the products I was looking for, the best prices and styles I was looking for. Yeah, it SHOULD be that way, but in the past, it wasn't. Usually my scout shop had well made but way overpriced products, or cheaply priced and even more cheaply made products that were more about the logo than anything else. But, I can see me ordering from the online scout store in the next wek or two. Mes kits, water bottle and canteen, and possibly the external frame backpack. Who'da thought?

Parent volunteer, general committee, ADL, DL , CM , CubScout District comittee, Council Cub Scout Camp promotions for OUR district. Soon to be ACM as I step down after 2 years as CM to let the next person with a fresh point of view and new ideas take it.

Chris, My son hated those BB guns at McNeill. They were Red Ryder's and Bucks. Spring air with emphasis on spring. But they are old and not in the best shape. They have been lacking ALOT of maintainance too. The triggers are just stiff enough that you pretty much have to yank them just enough that it throws your aim off. The mats are a bit worn out too. Funny thing is, my son might hit the target a few times at camp, but we would get home and get out the .22 rifle and shoot targets that were 80 feet away, and he'd get a nice cluster on the target. I have no doubt that the prop helps your son, but having a nice gun in working condition helps too.