scouter1960

We usually start with the dinner. I think the little ones are less crabby that way. We use a place with a nice sound system to avoid sounds of people talking in the back. I also ask the moms to please not do any kitchen clean up during the program. I tell them that the boys deserve our attention. This year we had a story teller. The boys all gathered around a fake fire I made. Lights were down and I had a soundtrack with crackling fire sounds, crickets etc. It was very cool. He told the history of scouting and the boys were mesmorized. We follow with a skit, song, etc from Web II, then their awards. Then Web I does skit, song, etc then their rank awards and so on. The skits break up the awards so the pace is pretty good. We go through all ranks this way and then I end with a slideshow put to music of all the events from BG last year until now. Parents and kids love it. We do the AOL ceremony and crossover in the March meeting each year. I think adding it to BG really drags out the BG event and more importantly, I like the Web II to get all the attention when they cross over. This has been working well for us the last few years.

Since my oldest son is currently fighting in a war zone and I am desperately missing him right now.... I LOVE this country. I hate to see anyone disrespect it! I am also very aware of the many rights he is fighting for...for me, you and everyone else. So, while I would be annoyed by someone sitting while our proud flag goes by, I guess he has every right to. Maybe he doesn't understand how his actions affect others..maybe he does. I just know that he can do it, as much as it breaks my heart and frustrates me.

I think the ideal plan would be for you to shadow/assist your CC until February and then take it from there.

My boys just came back on Saturday from the Webelos Adventure Camp at Camp Gerber just north of Muskegon, MI. It was 4 days, 3 nights. They had a BLAST!!! If you would like more info post again on this thread. If you are interested in this, I will be happy to give you a hand.

He either has met the requirements or he has not....right? At the Webloes level the DL is the one that signs off. It would seem to me that the Webloes leader should be able to say he has earned it or not. Or maybe I am missing something in the post.

Wow, this is really out of control, isn't it? I feel for you but you have to get this handled. As CC you have the authority (and responsibility for this pack) to get this handled as best you can. Sounds like you are dealing with a major power play here. If it were me, I would tell the den leader that you can replace them as the DL if they continue down this path. You and your COR can do that. I realize they have been the DL since Tigers but they cannot take over and disrupt your pack this way. Maybe if they face this choice, knowing that there is so little time left in the pack, they will find a way to compromise. Maybe they could be reminded that they are "what makes the pack go"?

If your son joined in December he will have plenty of time to get his Bear badge before the end of the school year. Odds are the rest of the den will have earned their badge before he does but that will make his bear ceremony that much more special because he won't be sharing the limelight with anyone else. A lot the "homework" for the Bear badge is stuff many families already do...family game night, help with making a meal, help with shopping, etc. I bet you won't have any trouble getting it done without rushing him.

We have a flag for each den. The boys make them each year. So if there are two Bear dens we would have each bear den make their own seperate flag. They have a seperate den number and they each have their own den yell. It helps promote pride in their group.

Thank you all so much for the help. I am waiting for a reply from the Web II leader. They had a death in the family so I haven't been able to communicate with her much this week. CM and CC (me) both are concerned that due to this lack of planning this very important event (if it even happens) is going to be rushed just "to check off a box" and the real meaning of what is going on is getting completely lost. NOT how we want this to go! This Web II leader is determined that they will cross over at BG. I have concerns that in the end they will just say they did it all, whether they did or not. Part of the problem is that the scout master of the troop that the boys are going to has not responded to the Web leader or CM/CC. I have called his house and his wife just says he's busy and the best way to reach him is via email. My emails have been unanswered. I personally have no desire to encourage feeding the troop where the leadership is well known in the district to not communicate (I have talked to the asst district commissioner about the lack of communication already and they are aware that this is a problem). The problem with this particular group is many are still crossing over to this troop because they have older brothers in it. It was the ADC that suggested I get with other troop leaders and ask if we can tag along on one of their outtings just to meet the requirement. And I have to say most have been very willing to try and help...it's just that we have so little time. Another problem is the Web II leaders son thinks he is getting his super achiever award at BG. The way I read it is they have to have completed the 20 before they make AOL. If they don't make the AOL requirements before BG he shouldn't get his super achiever at the BG awards ceremony, right? BG is in 3 weeks. I currently have no idea what the program is going to be. Therefore I don't know how to make the invitations, plan for food etc. If we change the BG to a traditional birthday party for scouts (which is how it is intended) and we remove the big award section of the program I know that the grandparents, etc are not going to attend. They will wait until the AOL/crossover ceremony. The parents of the Web II think we are being a bit hard nosed about all of this. The prior leadership just moved the kids a long so there is growing frustration over this conflict and the BG committee is really upset as well. If I had my way I would change BG to a birthday party and do the AOL and crossover in March. In my view this is the only way to do it. I am just meeting considerable resistance. And as someone else stated, this is leaving a HUGE hole in the BG plans!

Help, I can't find the answer anywhere. We have our BG planned for the first week in February. Reservations, plans, etc very much in motion. I have just learned that the 5 webelos that are supposed to cross over at the BG ceremony have not yet gone on their outting with boy scout troop which is needed for the AOL. We are scrambling to find a troop to do this with (the group they are crossing over to doesn't have one planned before now and then) but I don't see this happening. Can we do the cross over as planned at the BG and then an AOL ceremony for our next meeting in March? The cross over ceremony is a big part of the BG plan so this is creating a huge problem concerning the program. Thank you

Thank you everyone, this is very helful. I was under the impression that you only used the local tour permit if there was distance and carpooling involved. So, when we meet at a local park for our raingutter regatta or rocket launches we fill out the LTP and the previously linkd permission slip for this too? In those cases everyone drives themelves. Or is this to be filed for every single pack activity that is held away from our usual meeting place? We have not used any of these forms previously because we don't really have many activities away from the school where the boys can attend without a parent or guardian. I was assuming that if the parent was there, permission was obvious. I know that only Tigers require this, but we were havng trouble with some parents just dropping their boys off for everything and not enough adults to properly watch over them. The core group of parents that always went started complaining (don't blame them) about always being "stuck" watching other people's kids. So, in our pack a parent must generally attend with the boy. Besides, I really enforce scouting as a family activity. There is often one or two boys who really want to go to something but the parent has to work and they usually ride with me. YP guidelines have always been followed, just no paperwork has ever been used. Sorry to be such a pain on this subject, but since people are so eager to sue these days I want to be sure to get this right. They really didn't go into detail much on this topic in training. .When I call council I am referred to our DE who still has not called me back. Thank you again for all your help!

Thank you, that helps alot. With the exeption of the one boy, everyone is going with a parent. That boy will ride with us and YP guidelines are covered. Thank you for that permission slip. Is that to be used by everyone that is going, or just the boy going without his parent? If two families go together in one car, should there be any paperwork since the parents are there? The Local Tour permit was mentioned in our training. As I read that form over I wonder if I am supposed to use this also? It states that it's supposed to be turned in two weeks in advance and have all the drivers information on it. It's hard to imagine that our group would have all the drivers for carpooling arranged that far in advance. Thank you again.

I have a quick question. If you are going on an outting that Council has set up (as opposed to something that the pack has planned on their own) what permission slip do you use for carpooling and/or taking someone's boy where the parent is unable to attend. We have some that want to drive together and one boy who wants to go but his parent is working that day. I cannot get a call back from my DE on this. Thank you

I completely agree with the others that 20 is just TOO MUCH. It is too much for the leader and it's too much for the boys. There's no way they will get what they are here to get in this type of environment. Maybe I missed this, but have you talked to the CC? It is my understanding that the CC is responsible for the leaders in a pack, not the CM. Additionally, thinking a year or two ahead, I can't imagine 20 wolves, 20 bears, etc in a den. The activities as the progress get more and more and I doubt that anyone could effectively manage that.

I am looking for some suggestions for pack meetings. We have a lot of new families and scouts following a successful recruiting campaign. We are having huge problems with behavior during the pack meetings now. We have younger siblings running around the room while the parents just sit and watch. We have scouts (old and new) being disorderly and running around as well. There was playful pushing and shoving during the flag ceremony last week that was very annoying. We had a police officer come and give a presentation not long ago and it was very embarassing. He was frustrated himself at their behavior during his presenation. All the boys are aware of the "quiet" sign but it doesn't hold them for very long. The boys all sit on the floor up front near the CM and the parents are in the audience. Is there a better way to do this? What do we do with parents that can see their kids really acting up but just sit there? We want them to have fun, but it's a bit out of hand. I'd appreciate any advise. Thank you

Quick update.... I didn't quit. I signed up as CC, replaced the CM with care and diplomacy, and built a REAL committee. We had a hugely successful summer program and the parents had so much fun that many are now on the committee. We had a great recruit night and have almost doubled the size of the pack. Most of this was done because of training...the biggest core problem with the entire unit. I have come to this site almost nightly and learned so much from all of you and wanted everyone to know how helpful you have been. I am very overwhelmed with all of this and going through a few growing pains but things are moving forward and the pack did not die. My point is this....follow the structure of BSA, get people trained and use the resources available to you and things WILL work out!

I ran into CM tonight at another function. We had the opportunity to talk for a few minutes. I asked if he was going to be at the Memorial Day parade and he said no, he had yard work to do. Sad. I told him again that I thought he needed help and he just got annoyed. He said he thinks people just don't like him. I said I don't think that is the case at all, but that there is frustration and a lack of structure. I said I would be willing to be the CC and help him if we could develop a real committee and listed the people that have offered help previously. I named names and said we could develop a committee with these people and take the burden off him. He said he didn't think they were committed and had different things in mind, but didn't say what they were. I don't think I can be CC, as much as I would like to. I hate to leave the pack and the boys that I have been a den leader to for the last 4 years, but that is where I am at. Thank you for all your comment and suggestions.

Honestly, I am not trying to come down hard on the guy. I deeply appreciate that he volunteered last year. It's that it's turned into a mess and I am trying to find the best way to keep things going for the boys. I have three of my own kids that I want a strong pack for. I would like nothing more than to see this work out. My prior conversation actually was along the lines of "I see you need help. There are many here at want to help out." It was not a combative conversation ...not my style at all. You're right, the CM is NOT supposed to be doing all these things. That's the problem and why we are such a disorganized mess with lots of frustratd people. He won't let anyone else take over them, then complains that he is not getting support. The CC tried to set up a real committee. It is the CM that decided that we would not have a committee. We had people who have volunteered to be the treasurer (He's an accountant), we have a webmaster parent who has offered to take over the website but CM ignores requests to release the passwords to him. Yet another parent offered to help organize the Blue and Gold, but he decided to do it himself. It feels like a control thing. Whenever the subject of having a real committee comes up he refers to the "if your the one controlling the pack, you decide how it will run" statements. The CC is resigning. We have a strong core group and the leaders are good. They have been doing a great job, but CM recently just announced, off the cuff, at a pack meeting that next year we won't have leaders run their meetings anymore, but rather each den will rotate parents doing a meeting. My jaw dropped on that one as one of the leaders. The parents in my den are very willing and do help me out, but I enjoy being the leader and making sure that we are progressing toward rank. This was never discussed at any meeting and as I understand it, it is not the CM role to run the den meetings. Now we have leaders that are considering leaving. I suspect he IS burned out, but if people step up and volunteer for specific jobs and then he won't respond to them when they are trying to take on the task, what do you do? If there is no real committee then how will anyone know their roles and responsibilities? He says he has gone to the training and that he knows there is a scout structure, but he is so off base with some of these things, I wonder. No doubt we need the COR situation resolved immediately. We also need a CC immediately. I still think the problems stem directly from the CM and the lack of structure, not a group of parents expecting a lot and offering little. Please tell me if I am not seeing this clearly. I appreciate all the comments.

Yes, I meant CM. The CC has resigned and I am considering taking the position. I really want to do it, but I know that I will just inherit the problems she had with him. I know that as the CC I could remove him, but I don't want to look like a bully or like it is some kind of power-grab because it positively is not the case. I just care passionately about scouting. We have a great (but small) core group that is fed up. I asked around to see if anyone would like to be the assistant CM, so at least some male leadership would always be attending our events, but no one is willing to work with him. I guess I am just answering my own questions and showing my wimpy side LOL. I just feel uncomfortable about asking him to step aside and am a little concerned that he will not take it well at all. We all have to see each other at school events and he lives on my street.

Our PM seems to have lost complete interest in the pack but is not willing to step down. He does not follow through on many committments, everything is very last minute and disorganized, hasn't been showing up to many activities, often doesn't return emails or calls to leaders, parents, CC. I am one of the leaders and I recently approached him about it. I said it seemed like he needed some help and he agreed. I lined up people to take on the things he said he needed help with, but he still continues with this behavior and says he can't get any help. We had a near disaster recently over not turning in some forms to council for a major activity. Knowing that he hasn't been taking care of things I made a call to council the day before the drop dead deadline and was told the forms were not in. I sent urgent emails, no answer. I called and was surprised when he answered the phone. When I told him the situation, he seemed irrated and completely disinterested. He said someone else was to blame. The next day he called me back, told me he got it taken care of and blamed on another person entirely. I learned that the information he gave me was completely untrue. He does not follow the order of things. He overrides the CC on things that are her respsonsiblity, tells the leaders how they will run their dens. He has said that "If you are the one in charge, you should decide how things are going to be run." We haven't had a treasurer's report all year, though we've asked him for one. (He takes care of this). All we have been told is that we are out of money and need to do a fund raiser. The pack meetings over the last 4 or 5 months have had no agenda or planning to them at all. He starts with announcements that last over 20 minutes, most of which have been stated again and again. Then does the awards and then we're done. If scouts are not getting awards, parents have stopped attending. He controls the website but hasn't updated the calendar in 3 months. We have parents and leaders that are saying that are done. That the lack of organization, the lack of communication, poor attitude are too much. I told him directly in the perviously mentioned conversation and he didn't blink an eye. I told him parents are talking about leaving (we are a small pack) and the pack will die. He just said that there wasn't much that people should be upset about. Today he was to have the round up invitations sent out. It was the last day to send them before our events and it wasn't done. We had a project this afternoon and he didn't show up and didn't notify anyone. Many parents stated their disgust over it. Our COR is "on paper" only and they don't have any idea what's going on or what their role is. He started out great, enthusiastic, fun. He seems like an entirely different person now. He says he wants to continue, even though he won't have a son in the pack for a couple more years. We don't really have any one that is willing to replace him because the pack is dwindling and disorganized. I don't want to hurt his feelings or cause an uproar, but what do we do? The CC is resigning. I plan to speak with him directly soon. I think I know what I want to say, but he is a very defensive person and the last time I spoke with him I didn't get anywhere. I appreciate all the work that he previously put into the pack and I don't want him to feel like he is being "kicked out" but really, he is not leading the pack and overall alienating all the leaders and parents. Any suggestions? Our pack is about to die.