schleining

I picked up "Follow me Boys" at Target for $14.99 on DVD. Now my youngest Sons favorite movie. Jerry

The Flag on the DCU's and BDU's are in fact "flying as you wear it" as it was discrobed the day they had us sew it on. That really is not an issue. The bigger issue within the Army is that have us sewing it on UNDER our combat patch. The flag should never be below any other patch, BUT that is what the Army has decided. It was wierd to put a full color patch on our DCU's too..but then we are not really a sneaky Army anymore either. There is no sneaking going on in Iraq... 70 tons of steel is hard to be sneaky in. Now the real answer as it relates to SCOUTING is... it does not matter what the Army is doing, we are not a military organization and if memory serves BDUs are discouraged in Scouting. The Flag we wear on our Scout shirt is perfectly fine. Jerry Scoutmaster/ CSM US ARMY (almost retired)

Bob White- I agree. Our PLC is split on the neckerchief issue. Yes I think it is a good idea and have let the PLC know this. They will sort it out. Their biggest beef with the neckerchief is keeping it on, finding the slide that will hold it. So far as the Uniform being part of the program. Got to disagree with you on this one. I think the uniform is a part of the program. It is a tool that makes all the boys equal, it is an outward demonstration of being part of the team. It require the Scout to take care of it and wear it properly, both of those help teach responability and accountability. Now- there are other ways in which these are taught, but the uniform certainly helps. The Uniform is a Method and therefore is part of the Program. Jerry

TWO WORDS... TROOPMASTER ME Makes all the record keeping, reporting, and organization a snap. Does the work of three committee members. Jerry

I'd stay- I think the consensus is that we would all stay because the program stands alone- with or without Homosexuals, God on the other hand would be a tough one to do without. I for one would never tell God he is not welcome in Scouting. I think for the most part the CO's would continue to march to the same beat as they are now. CO's that are from Churches, Patriotic Groups (American Legions etc) would maintain their stance on the subject. I do not think we will ever see the day that the Hypothetical comes true, and thats not a bad thing IMO. So to count it up... We stay. Jerry

Onehour- First of all great screen name...are you sure you should not put a multiply sign after that (haha) Yeah I geuss I am lucky- no one has asked from my head or job yet. I think next time I will simply ask one of the Dads (or Moms) coming up with the new Scouts to the New Scout Patrol ASM. Then they can really get a first hand look at the Patrol Method and see what they are doing. That should make them feel more comfortable about what is going on. You know it is funny too that the loudest opposition always comes from the person with the least amount of blisters. I am with you! YIS Jerry

Cliff- Now you have lived my friend... come back anytime for more cobbler and some good fire side chat. Cliff- made some great points, I think the most important was that (paraphrasing) Sitting on the Computer is not what he does in Scouting. Great!! LOVE IT! Anyway- Good Scouting to you all, Thanks Cliff for giving me some perspective. We all need that from time to time. Jerry

NAH....not buying the "because they are 11" Now I will buy the circumstances beyond the boys control, druggie mom etc, but by and large an 11 year boy can remember the Scout oath and law. As a Webelos Scout they should be learning the Oath, Law, and Outdoor code for two years before crossing over to the Troop. My personal take is that they are not being taught. You know this brings up a good sub topic and that is: I am amazed at how much an 11 year old CAN DO when given the chance. My Troop suprizes my every week with the amount of responsibilty they want and take. How much they grow and develop, how when given a task and a good set of instructions and some adult leaders that care and can teach, coach, train, and mentor, the boys see, to have no boundries. And I know that I am not the only Scout leader that feels so proud of these boys. You know, it can all be measured and at some point accountability can be traced. A Scout that comes to a Boy Scout Troop after 2 years (or a year and a half)as a Webelos Scout should know the Oath, Law, Motto, Outdoor code,and Slogan when they walk in the door (nerves aside). I geuss the question was how did he get his AOL if he did not know this stuff. Last time I checked it is still a requirement to get the AOL. Jerry

Thanks everyone for your input. I personally wear a complete uniform everytime I put the uniform on, I leave nothing out. I want the Troop to be in complete uniform and there really is no excuse, but I am afraid to say that my Troop is not in full uniform. I like the idea of buying shorts when they come up from Webelos, that does not seem like a stretch. Bob White- I appreciate your comments and you are absolutly right. The Uniform method is part of the program and to require less than complete is not doing the Scout or the program justice. I have a hunch this is going to make it on my Wood Badge ticket. Thanks Again all... On the Neckerchiefs- Right now our Troop does not wear one at all. I am forcing the issue as I think it is an important part of Scouting. I am meeting some resistance from leaders that think I am just trying to accessorize to much. I also noticed at the last camporee that many Troops are not wearing a neckerchief. What is the general feeling in this group? Jerry

I know this campfire circle is getting huge... but if there is still room on the log, save me a seat. I come with a song and enough Huckleberry Cobbler in my Dutch oven for all... You have not lived till you have a hunk of my Huckleberry Cobbler! Thanks all for being Scouters! Jerry

Eamonn I am with you on this one (and on most of your posts). I think it is clear through this entire Scouter Network who the Scouters are that follow the BSA guide lines and policies and are firm believers in what the Scouting movement offers. There are consistant threads in our postings that lead one to see which side of the fence one sits on and of course those occassional folks that love to stradle the fence. I enjoy this discussion board. As stated it does provide a documented archieve of ideas, thoughts and stimulating discussion. Jerry

So the question is: How many Troops require complete uniforms? Those that do, how do you do it? IE. Funding? Timeline on when it is required? Parent reaction? Those that do not, what do you wear? Do you require "Like Pants"? And the follow up.... Neckerchiefs... yes, worn..or No, not worn? Your Thoughts please. Thanks Jerry Scoutmaster

starwolfmom said something that caught my eye, and that was (paraphrasing) that the transistion from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting can be hard on micromanaging parents. Soooooo true.. I am finding that more and more. We just had a group of graduated Webelos come to the Troop. Most of the parents contiue to question everything I do as a Scoutmaster. We went on a campout a couple weeks after they all crossed over. The parents were floored when I told the Scouts to tell me what they wanted to eat and then when we got out to the camp site they actually had to cook (with supervision of older Scouts). I am a firm believer in trial and error. I do not think you can learn to ride a bike by reading about it... you must get on the bike and ride. Same with camping and Scout skills. There is no place to learn Scout skills like camping. But some micromanaging over protective parents need to see the result, and thats fine. The NSP is a great idea and allows the new Scout to make those mistakes in the group he has more than likely spent the last 4 years with rather than feeling the pressure of older Scouts hovering over them. Jerry Scoutmaster

This is a great topic. I have just become the Publicity Chairman for our District and am trying to get all the info I can. Our Council is rarely in the Newspaper, unless it is something bad, but then the Oregonian only prints the bad stuff, especially if it has to do with conservative groups. Anyway- I am hoping to change that, especially in our little city paper. They are still friendly to us. I am also exploring the use of public access cable. Our Council has its own newspaper which we get monthly, but the public does not get to see it. We hope to get more and more into the press (all good stuff of course). Jerry

Ear rings- Well I too am still chuckling over the totin chip comment..too funny. Here's is my take.. Don't care as long as it is clean and not disruptive in appearance. I spent 20 years in the Army and could really care a less what people stick in their bodies as long as it does not create a health problem or effect performance. Tatoos, nose piercing, and Fangs... I have yet to see a Scout in that condition. I do have a Scout in my troop with an ear ring and it really does not get in the way. One day when we go climbing or other high adventure... he will have to take it out for safety sake, but until then... it is not an issue with me. Beg the Scout to come back...that would not happen either. He will come back on his own accord. Was the Scoutmaster wrong... yep! My question is why was the SM on the BOR. That is a committee function. My 2.5 cents Jerry

Yup- dealt with this one a couple times. And the answer is... NO AOL. The AOL is the only thing that really goes with the Scout to Boy Scouts. The second year of Webelos is geared to getting the Scout ready for Boy Scouts. If you "Fudge" on an activity pin what are you teaching the Scout? When he gets to his BOR for Tenderfoot is his expectation going to be that the leader will give him a bye? I know you are having a hard time with the Parents and it is extremely tough to take it out on the Scout, but I will tell you that you will deal with it now...or you will deal with it later... your choice. I am dealing with it now as a Scoutmaster- got a new Scout that has his AOL, can not even tell me the Scout Oath without help. How in the world does that happen? In the interest of not upsetting the apple cart the boys just move along...then one day they hit the wall of reality and it all comes tumbeling down on them. I don't want to sound hard nosed, but what life lesson are we trying to teach the Scouts? The very first AIM of Scouting is to build character. "The purpose of the advancement program is to spur a Scout to learn, achieve, and to mature. That it does this so consistantly make it another important method that reinforces the Scouting aims." (Scoutmaster Handbook) I think that if you "Fudge" you fail the Scout. I know its a tough call, but its one you have to make...sooner or later. Good luck to you. Jerry(This message has been edited by schleining)(This message has been edited by schleining)

This is not a Red State- Blue state issue.. This is an issue of consistant policy and maintaining the Scouting way. Some one said that the BSA needs to take everyone it can get. Well- yes and no, as a matter of fact, once the Schools started bailing out on Character and moral fiber, civic and religious organizations began scooping up Scout units. I know that up here in the Cascade Pacific Council we were worried that there would be a flood of units folding due to perhaps the most backwards School system in America jumping ship on everything that is decent and right. On the contrary.. Churches, American Legion posts, VFW posts, "Friends of..." type groups started coming to the call. Here in Oregon the cities of Portland and Salem (which make up the population base) colored the State blue, even thought that does not really represent the State as a whole, and so goes it Nationally. America wants traditional values and people of Character. The BSA program, when executed properly offers that to its members. Its not a Red State, Blue State issue, it is an issue of the program. Like I have stated before, I could really care less if a parent/scout is gay or worships trees. There are simple rules to live by in the Boy Scouts of America. I teach the Scouts that when they hold up the three fingers of Scout sign it represents the three duties... Duty to God, Duty to Country, and Duty to self. They are expected to live the Scout law, which includes Reverent. Some say this is intolerant... no... its an organization that believes in its program and knows that the program does good for its members and the Country as a whole. Because it is good and wholesome, it must be bad it today's society. Because we want our young men to tuck in their shirt, be clean and respectful, be good stewards of the outdoors, and discover or enhance their spiritual lives... we must be out of touch and living in the past. As a Scoutmaster I hope I am a good rolemodel for these young men. I hope that by my example they see a good husband when they see me with my wife, I want them to see a good Father in the relationship I have with my kids, I want them to see an example of duty, duty to the community, the chuch, and to their Troop. They need to see that committment to see things thru, and that hard work pays off in the end. They need to see that it is cool to pray, it is cool to go to rated G movies, it is cool to talk with a clean mouth and not everything "sucks". I am no Ward Cleaver, but I do understand my role as a leader, and I understand the role of the Boy Scouts of America as it applies to our young men and what our Aims and Methods are. I am sorry for going on and on... but this is a subject that can be discussed forever. I thank God that we have the opportunity to put our ideas out there and share. Agree or disagree... your choice. All I ask is that if you are a Leader.. try to promote and execute the program that has been established by the BSA. After all as BP said " this is a game with a purpose" By the way BP himself pushed the role of God in the early Scouting movement and developed it as a tenant of Scouting as far back as day 1. Jerry

Prairie_Scouter- They are two seperate topics, my point was- I don't care if a boy is homesexual or atheist. The boy is welcome in Scouting as long as he obeys the Scout and Law. I personally have a strong belief in God, and I also believe that Homosexuality is wrong, thise topics for another day and another place. But as it relates to Scouting, the Scout oath and law are the rule and there are no exceptions to that. Our Troop lost it's charter as well as our Cub Scout Pack. The public School literally kicked us out. And I mean literally- one night in the middle of a meeting the janitor came in and turned off all the lights and said " You're done- you need to leave". So we took our flags and finished the meeting in the parking lot. Two weeks later we were picked up by our Current CO, the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic Mens Fraternal organization (of which I belong). Again- I do not fight or argue this. The rules are clear and simple. The Boy Scouts are said to be behind the times...Good...maybe those earlier times were better times and we need to go back to them, or at least revisit the values they represent. I am proud to say that I am Scouter and that everyday we try to instill in our Scouts timeless values and strong character. I love to see our Scouts holding a door open for a lady or elderly person. I love to see boys from my Troop at Church. I love it when I get a call from a Mom or Dad and they say what a difference Scouts is making on their son. I love to go in my two sons room and see that Scout Law hanging on their wall, and knowing that they really try to live up to the promise they make every meeting to do their best to do their Duty to God and Country, to help other people at all time and to obey the Scout law. Gay- atheist- not on my radar- as long as they live the Oath and Law. Jerry

Here is the uniform I would like to see... First I would bring back a "Old School" Look.. bring back tradition with functionality. Sooooo.. You gotta go back to green shirts. Shirts would come back with Collar/ no collar option, short sleeves and long sleeves. Patches would have to revert back to green backgrounds. A "quick dry" wicking undershirt would be part of the uniform and would serve as a "Class B" or activity uniform when the shirt is removed. Pants would have to be green, made of rip stop material. Zip off legs to convert to Shorts and cargo pockets. The front and back pockets would have velcro closures. Belts- now that we do use skill awards anymore the belt just needs to be funtional- get rid of the current "Military style" buckle it is a pain in the butt and rarely stays secure. Go back to the two piece insert style buckle on a leather belt or adapt a like buckle to a web material belt. Hat- Campaign hat for leaders and a baseball style (6 panel hat) for the youth and adults. Hat would be solid green (same color as Shirt) and have the Universal emblem (First class) in full color on the front. Sashes stay the same, but allow specific patches to be sewn on back ie: 50 miler, historic trails etc. But most importantly... its got to be cost effective and cheap enough for everyone to be in a complete uniform. That is the reason so many Scouts and Scouters do not wear full uniforms now.. at $38.00 a shirt, pants seem to be a little far out there for most. Jerry Scoutmaster

I am happy to say that we have a great CO. And our CO Rep is an outstanding Scouter. He is an Eagle Scout and sits on our Troop Committee. He reports the the CO about all the great things the Boys are doing and when we need help either Financially or in man hours the CO is always there to help. This Sunday our Troop is holding a "Scoutmaster Breakfast" Fundraiser, a bunch of the men from the CO will be there at 6:30 am to start cooking while the Scouts set up table etc. They are a great group of guys and we are happy to have them on our Charter. Being Chartered by a Catholic Mens group (the Knights of Columbus) our leaders are screened by the CO first and then they all have to be screened thru the Archdiocese to be able to serve as an Adult leader. This is nice, because as a Scoutmaster I am confident that the leaders we have working with the Boys are good to go. The CO also puts additional rules on us regarding Youth protection and procedures for camping and travel. This is their right as a CO, and we are happy to add their input to our program. Training is the least thing that disrupts a committed Scouter. It is the least we can do for the Scouts. Jerry

Boy does Troop 17 look great or what!!! I wish my Troop looked that good in uniform... one of the things I am going to put on my Wood badge ticket! Great job Troop 17..love the Campaign hats..I wear one, it really adds a classic touch or tradition to the Troop. Jerry Scoutmaster

I wear a Campaign Hat all the time as a Scoutmaster.. GOt mine from an online Surpluse Store brand new, then went to the Scout Shop and bought the hat band and pins etc.. Here are some suggestions. Here is one for$29.99 http://www.armynavysales.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=01&Product_Code=CH105&Category_Code=CAP $32.70 for this one http://hqcompany.com/campaign_hat.htm Finally, the store I got mine...and I love it, good quality and has lasted a year now, in the rain, heat, woods, and of course snazzy at weekly meetings... $29.95 at http://www.vtarmynavy.com/campaign-hats.htm Hope that helps..I sure like it and I think all leaders should wear it.. it brings the tradition of Scouting back. I wear it because my Scoutmaster when I was a kid wore one. Jerry Scoutmaster Troop 664

Not to pile on....BUT.. We Scouts and Scouters have always pledged duty to God and Country, and to live the Scout Law (which includes REVERENT). The Boy Scouts of America / World Scouting Organization, does not tell you that you have to believe in a Religion, it prescribes that you should have belief and service to "A GOD". Now to be blunt... (in a most Courteous and Kind way) IF you do not wish to participate in the fullness of the Scouting movement..than leave. The BSA is a private organization and does not force any one to join and/or stay. All the BSA asks is that you promise to live the Scout oath and Law. I do not see this topic as an issue at all, much as the Homosexual issue. A boy and his family are more than welcome to participate as long as he and they promise to abide by the rules. That is all...no pressure..no twisting of arms, the minute they are uncomfortable or feel they can't practice what we preach.. they can find another group that offers the program more condusive to their life style. My Troop is Chartered by a Catholic Mens group, and oddly enough 80% of the Troop come from outside the Church, not even Catholic...they come for the program. I could care a less if they believe in God, go to Church, or worship trees... as long as they abide by the Rules and take the Oath and law seriously and include it in their daily lives I am good with it. In our meeting hall we have a big Crucifix. If someone is uncomfortable with it they are welcome to find a different Troop. This is just the way it is. We are sensitive to make sure we do not push Catholicism on anyone and do allow anyone to push their faith on anyone either. We are just their to be Scouts and Scouters. The BSA is a faith based organization, wheather you like it or not...been that way since 1910, not going to change anytime soon. Jerry

First- The so called leader that chose to fold a crew rather than get trained... WHAT A Self centered bone head! Another leader should have stepped up and took the Crew and invited the clown to leave. How dare he put himself before the Scouts... That turns my stomach. Second- All leaders should be trained to include the CO.. ours is trained, it helps him better understand the whole program and outlines his role within the Troop and Chartered Organization. To to sound cliche- but Every Scout deserves a Trained leader. it can only enhance the program and give the Scouts a better Scouting experience. WOW- I am still fuming about the flake who let a crew die... that is just not right. Jerry Scoutmaster Troop 664 The Mighty Thunderbird District Cascade Pacific Council

You have to got to be kidding me right???? First of all- there was a comment made that Scouting has headed down the same path at schools etc... Well let me tell you all that if it has than WE as leaders have let it happen and if you are one of those leaders (as Scout is couteous, kind, cheerfull)... ok I have counted to 10.... NOW.... SHAME ON YOU!! I am a Scoutmaster and there is a great group of Assistant Scoutmasters in my Troop... it is our responsability to teach, coach, train and mentor those young Scouts. Between the ranks of Scout and 1st Class, the Scout works on NOTHING but Scout skills.. that would include: First Aid, Knots, Plants and Animals,Camping skills, cooking skills, planning basics, Hiking, The Patrol method, and an intro to citizenship. Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters do not sit on BOR, but if the Scout is not ready, ie: Has not demonstrated the skills for the rank, than the ASMs and I do not sign it off. This is not Cub Scouts where Mom and Dad can sign a book and poof the kid has the AOL. Leaders need to make the Scouts demonstrate the ability to advance. I fell out of my chair when someone wrote a Scout appearing for his Eagle board could not say the Scout oath. My goodness.. If I am on that board I am asking who the leaders are and why they do not hold the standards true. PC is NOT part of the Scouting program. Scouts that do not advance, do not advance. We have a Scout that has no desire to advance, BUT he shows up for everything and goes on every campout...thats what he joined Scouts for, at this rate, he will never appear before an Eagle BOR and I will not let him unless he demonstates the ability to join that select group of Scouts. Those of you that think you have to cater to every sensability have it all wrong. We have an Oath and Law that are simple and cut and dry. That is the program that we need to teach by our example to our Scouts. Sending a Scout to a BOR after Tenderfoot not knowing basic knots is not being Trustworthy or Loyal to the program. Jerry Starting Woodbadge Next month and I can not wait!