SaxTeacher

Craig (The7Hiker) is someone who will make you a "custom" patch. He can make it green numbers on a tan background, with a tan veteran bar across the top, or if you want, he can make you one in a silly shape, or with extra words on it. There are lots of examples of this on his web site. It's not necessary to go with an unofficial or incorrect patch, made by an outside vendor, in order to get a one-piece unit number patch. You can just order "the real thing" - a one piece unit number with veteran bar included - from BSA. It's cheap and easy - you go by your local Scout Shop and fill out an order form, or you just call 1-800-323-0732 Ext.488. In either case, you ask for "2-digit unit number with Veteran bar, item no. 10412." They are $3.49 each, with a minimum of 12. (That's the item number and cost for a two digit pack number, in red, with a veteran unit bar. Three digit numbers or green-and-tan ones are a different item number with a slightly different price.) Looking at Craig's web site, I was stunned by the silly unit numbers I saw there. Every unit number on there is, well, wrong. Some of his "custom unit numbers" include the town name... some are made in funny shapes, like states... some include nicknames like "CRAZY EIGHTS"... some have a red and white arc reminiscent of the patches of the 1970s - _none of which_ is in accordance with the BSA Insignia Guide. The word "uniform" means "the same," and the bootleg "custom unit number" patches Craig is selling are anything but. Evidently that doesn't bother Craig or his customers, but it sure seems wrong to me. While I'm the first to agree that delivering a good quality fun program to the boys is far more important than wearing the right patches, I find it sad to see entire units mucking up their uniforms with "bling." You're from a fancy town? Well lah-dee-dah, good for you. Your unit has been around since 1953? Congrats. Does that mean your troop is "too good" to follow the uniform manual, "too special" to make do with a 50 year veteran bar, or "too historic" to stoop to wearing your council strip and a couple of digits, like everyone else? (Is it because the troop from the next town has a "custom" number patch? Maybe some misguided leader in that troop has decided they need a "custom" patch that says "TROOP 99, BEVERLY HILLS, SINCE 1911, CRAZY EIGHTS, THE BEST OF THE BESTEST." Just because they've decided to ignore "that part" of the uniform manual doesn't mean that your troop has to make a patch that's even "more custom" in order to prove your troop is as "special" as theirs. I find it sad that the adults are teaching the scouts that "it's OK to follow some of the rules, but it's not necessary to follow all of them." The name of your town, your troop's nickname, and what year it was founded - all this stuff can go on your unit hat. Please, don't mess with the classic troop numerals that belong on the uniform.

The link given by UCEagle72 is where I heard about the closure of the BSA Speakers Bank program. But there's more to the story! As of two weeks ago, the announcement at that web page said "all good things must come to an end, and on December 31st, the Speakers Bank program will be discontinued, and the Speakers Bank Award, patch, and knot may no longer be earned." As a registered Speakers Bank speaker, I was stunned to see they had shut down the program without notifying the existing members. I let my local scout executive know, since he is in charge of the Speakers Bank within our council's boundaries... he had not been informed either! Apparently he (and I assume others from around the country) contacted national and said "this is a big mistake... let the program continue" - and BSA national listened! So when I visited that page yesterday (to provide a link to hawkUH60 so he could read the news of the program's cancellation) to find that they have changed course and decided NOT to cancel the program altogether. The page says the Speakers Bank Award knot can STILL be earned - they will just not add any more speakers to the bank.

The Pack Trainer Award (and associated knot) is still available, but based on an announcement last fall on the BSA's web site, it will be going away soon. The article says that BSA is consolidating (not eliminating) several cub scouter awards. Pack Trainers will still be able to earn an award, but they will earn the Scouter Training Award, with a cub scouting device on it, rather than a separate Pack Trainer Award and knot. http://www.cpds.org/Docs/Cub_Scout_Adult_Leader_Awards_to_be_Consolidated.pdf The original article appeared on the BSA web site in the "Training Times" newsletter at http://scouting.org/Training/TrainingUpdates/Archives/201111.aspx (it's the fourth article down in the newsletter) but did not specify any phase out date for the old knots. So if you are close to earning the Pack Trainer Award (or one of the other awards that are about to be phased out), probably best to get your application in ASAP! Also the Speakers Bank Award (and knot; and the entire Speakers Bank program) were all eliminated on January 1.

The Pack Trainer Award (and associated knot) is still available, but based on this article on the national scouting web site, it will be going away soon. The article says that BSA is consolidating (not eliminating) several cub scouter awards. Pack Trainers will still be able to earn an award, but they will earn the Scouter Training Award, with a cub scouting device on it, rather than a separate Pack Trainer Award and knot. http://www.cpds.org/Docs/Cub_Scout_Adult_Leader_Awards_to_be_Consolidated.pdf The original article appeared on the BSA web site in the "Training Times" newsletter at http://scouting.org/Training/TrainingUpdates/Archives/201111.aspx (it's the fourth article down in the newsletter) but did not specify any phase out date for the old knots. So if you are close to earning one of the knots that's about to be phased out, best to apply for it ASAP!(This message has been edited by SaxTeacher)

On 6/7/2009, LindaBob wrote: > When our veteran unit number changed to 60 this year, I wanted to > order a patch with all the numbers plus our hometown on it, as I had > seen a different unit [wearing]. Then I discovered that BSA discourages > the hometown to be on it, which is why you can't order the hometown on the patch from BSA supply. > The reason given was that certain towns in a given locality might be > thought of as more "elite" than others. B-P wanted uniforming to equalize > all Scouts, regardless of economic class, etc. LindaBob, that was very well put - I couldn't agree more. Folks from fancy towns say "we want to add our town name to our unit numeral out of pride, that's all" - but as B-P desired, the uniform is supposed to put an end to "look what town I'm from" and instead emphasize "we're all scouts - wearing the same uniform (with the same numerals). We all follow the same rules." The idea that "regular rectangular unit numerals are good enough for "plain old" troops, but ours is so old (or so special, or from such a fancy town) that we need something fancier" shows a real disregard for the uniform rules. When one scout has a patch in the wrong place, that's a simple honest mistake. But when an entire unit decides together that they are ALL going to ignore the rules, and that it's OK for them to do that, that's something else entirely.

Hi Wilton125, Make your own unit hat? Why not - I see this all the time. Any unit that wants to can develop its own hat. Make a custom neckerchief for your troop? Sounds good to me. But when you start taking the items on the uniform as specified in the insignia guide, and mucking about with them (adding the name of your town, adding a unit nickname, changing the shape of the numerals to the shape of your state, etc.) then you've crossed the line from "unit pride" into "bling." The insignia guide says what can be worn where on the uniform. It says that sleeve gets the council shoulder patch; the veteran unit bar; and the unit numerals. What makes people need to mess with that? Why do 98% of the units wear rectangular unit numerals, as issued by (or nearly identical to) national supply... while 1% of units feel the need to screw around with the number patch? If you want to wear the name of your town, the year your unit was established, or a unit nickname, put it on your troop hat, or your troop neckerchief, or even a troop neckerchief slide! But don't bend the uniform insignia rules in order to include it on your shoulder. It doesn't belong there. By the way, I wasn't trying to pick on Wilton in particular; it just appears at the top of Craig's page of "custom" (or put another way, "wrong") unit number patches. (Looking at that patch, I can't help but imagine the thought process that went into it. Someone in troop 125 said "I saw someone from some other troop wearing a colored bar above the troop numerals. Let's do that too! But instead of having it be tan with a unit longevity number in it, let's make that bar red, and put our town name in it! Yeah, that would be cool.")

In searching elsewhere in the scouter.com forums, I found the answer. The BSA supply division is happy to make a one-piece unit number with veteran bar included. They are easy to order and inexpensive. You either go to your local Scout Shop, and fill out an order form, or you call 1-800-323-0732 Ext. 488. In either case, you ask for "2-digit unit number with Veteran bar, item no. 10412." They are $3.49 each, with a minimum of 12. (That's the item number and cost for a two digit pack number, in red, with a veteran unit bar. Three digit numbers or green-and-tan ones are probably a different item number, with a slightly different price.)

Sure, you can order a "custom unit number" in a silly shape, or with extra words on it - but why not just order "the real thing"? That is, a one piece unit number with veteran bar included. It's cheap and easy. You either go to your local Scout Shop, and fill out an order form, or you call 1-800-323-0732 Ext. 488. In either case, you ask for "2-digit unit number with Veteran bar, item no. 10412." They are $3.49 each, with a minimum of 12. (That's the item number and cost for a two digit pack number, in red, with a veteran unit bar. Three digit numbers or green-and-tan ones are probably a different item number with a slightly different price) I visited Craig's web site, and to be honest I was stunned and saddened by the stuff I saw there. Every unit number on there is, well, wrong. His "custom unit numbers" include the town name... they include the state shape... they include nicknames like "CRAZY EIGHTS"... they have a red and white arc reminiscent of the patches of the 1970s - _none of this_ is OK according to the insignia guide. The word "uniform" means "the same," and the bootleg "custom unit number" patches Craig is selling are anything but. Evidently that doesn't bother Craig or his customers, but it sure seems wrong to me. I'm sorry to be a downer (after all, delivering a good quality fun program to the boys is far more important than wearing the right patches) but I just hate to see entire units mucking up their uniforms with what I can only call "bling." You're from Wilton, Connecticut? Well lah-dee-dah, good for you. Your unit has been around since 1953? Congrats. But could you please explain to me why your troop is "too good" to follow the uniform manual, "too special" to make do with a 50 year veteran bar, or "too historic" to stoop to wearing your council strip and a couple of digits? Is it because the troop on the other side of town has a fancy custom troop patch? If theirs says "TROOP 99, SINCE 1911, THE BEST OF THE BESTEST," does that mean yours needs to be "more custom" in order to prove your troop is as "special" as theirs?

At our council office there is a "national scout shop." Their solution to the confusion was to post the following guidance next to the bins that contain the unit numerals and trained strips. Boy Scouts and Boy Scouters: GREEN shoulder loops, TAN numerals, TAN trained strip Everyone else: RED numerals and RED "trained" strip They didn't mention what you're supposed to be wearing if you're a boy scout or scouter who is still wearing red loops on his uniform shirt. I would guess that Boy Scouts and Boy Scouters who wear red shoulder loops would stick with the red numerals and trained strip, but I'm not sure. Is there some sort of phase-out date by which time all boy scouts and scouters are supposed to have switched over from red loops & numerals to green ones? Or does the "any uniform that was ever correct is always correct" policy apply? Will we continue to see a mix of red loops and green loops at troop meetings for a decade to come?

I searched at www.scoutstuff.org for item D10412 and could not find it. Do they still offer it? Or is it now only available from a third party vendor?

Thanks emb021 and NeilLup. I was hoping to get just such an answer. Would be even nicer to see it in writing but two experienced WBers who agree on it is good enough for me.

Wait, let me get this straight - someone made (or makes?) an unlicensed reproduction of an official BSA uniform item (beads) and is giving them out - to people who did not take the course? Perhaps I misunderstood, but it sounded from the OP like the reproduction "gold beads" were given to a ''relative'' of someone who took Wood Badge. That would be a violation of the BSA's rules on uniform items, which can be found here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/02.aspx (scroll down to "Protection and Use of Badges and Insignia" where it says "All badges and insignia of the Boy Scouts of America shall be used exclusively by members of the Boy Scouts of America, registered and in good standing according to the records at the national office, who qualify in accordance with the provisions herein..." etc. etc. Well intentioned, perhaps... relatively harmless, perhaps... but still way over the line that divides right from wrong.

The BSA Insignia Guide ( http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide.aspx ) clearly explains 2 beads for wood badge recognition, 3 beads for course staff, and 4 beads for course director. What the Insignia Guide does NOT explain is whether the person who wears 3 or 4 beads can continue to wear their "extra" (third and fourth) beads after the conclusion of the course that they are leading. I recall reading years ago, somewhere official, that the "extra" beads were to be worn ONLY while the person was actively serving on course staff; but I can't find any reference now that clearly directs one way or the other.