saltheart

Hmmm..., well, as the preponderance of flags sold and flown in this country likely do not 'meet code' exactly, they are still rectangular and fairly close. I probably won't really worry about this until I see square or round flags being flown...

The ASM positions defined by BSA are a good place to start, but sometimes troop size can dictate a little deviation from the norm. If your troop is sizable, then having more 'trained' adult leaders in the form of ASM's can definitely be a plus. How they are used will vary from troop to troop. How they are used will greatly impact the interest with which they approach the job. And the designation of ASM for each will be something that varies from troop to troop, also. As Bob indicated, some of the tasks you've outlined can be the territory of the committee. In our troop, the number of ASM's varied between 10-15. Each found his/her own little 'niche' in the troop organization which they enjoyed working at, and knew that they were serving in a worthwhile capacity. Nothing worse that someone wondering what they should be doing to help. These folks were all trained and had a great desire to wear the uniform and be what they felt was a visible, worthy, and functioning part of the troop. We also had as many folks who worked behind the scenes, not directly with the boys, who wore no uniform and had no desire for title or position. But they were always there. One of our ASM's gained his position and job by his career...a chef. He started with the troop being the head chef for the adult leaders on each and every trip. Then he gained a support group to help him. Then he became, with a couple from his group, the provider of the absolute best cooking and clean-up instruction for the boys. When the PLC found itself with a program plan that required instruction beyond what they could provide themselves in that regard, they knew exactly who to talk to for program assistance. Along the road, these trained adults expressed an interest in wearing the uniform of ths ASM, and there was no good reason to say no. Specific jobs, outside the normal BSA definition, but each supporting the SM in a unique fashion. One of our ASM's, with military experience, found an interest in gear and equipment. He was trained and also had the desire to wear the uniform (no good reason to say no). He became what we referred to as the 'adult quatermaster'. His ASM job, in effect, was to watch over but not interfere with the troop and patrol QM's. He helped the Scouts design and construct the storage facilities for all troop gear. He also provided assistance and instruction when the PLC found the need. His knowledge of outdoor gear was invaluable in training. I know of a troop in my area that has historically had almost as many ASM's as Scouts over the years. The committee is small, but the adult leadership is huge. The SM, long-toothed and enjoying every year of his tenure, regards the high number as allowing him to really attend to the boys, and not having to concern himself with much else, for there is an ASM assigned to a wide variety of tasks, some of which you've listed. This troop is quite the exception, no others that I know of continually maintain the numbers of adult leaders. And as I indicated, the numbers remain high because the trained volunteer adults each have a 'job'. None are either overwhelmed by the job, nor are they underwhelmed, wondering what they're supposed to do to support the SM. They are all incredibly interested in what they do. A keep element in having many ASM's is being able let them do the job they want to do, recognizing their efforts from time to time as we do with the Scouts, but also making sure that they know the lay of the land...where their responsibilities lie so that the SM is still recognized as the person in the big chair. There are many who will advocate sticking strictly with the book and placing the bulk of these things I've talked about in the committee's folder. Myself, I've always felt that if a person presents themselves to the troop and proves to be valuable doing a certain thing, and wants to be seen in the uniform as a visible 'part of the team', I will not deny that and would ask the committee to follow suit.

"Even evaluating our performance has to be taught." If you're saying what I think you're saying...it's a very good point. All too often we spend much of our time evaluating the performance of the Scouts, but rarely take the time, as individual leaders or a a group, to do some self-evaluation. Are we setting a good example for the Scouts to follow? Or are we telling and then expecting? Have they understood what we've tried to teach them? Have our teaching methods been just so much Greek to them? The self-evaluation process is not natural for many adults to undertake. As parents, we can fall easily into the "I know everything I need to know" trap. But if the majority of the adult leaders within the troop have taken adult leader training, at any level, they most likely will have been exposed to the process and can lead the untrained through it. It's a valuable undertaking for those who teach and guide. It can insure that the means and methods we use are, indeed, getting the message through to the boys.

How much should the boys be responsible for? The ideas already presented spell a lot of that out. But you'll find that what you can expect and not expect will vary with the boys you're working with. For some boys, working on the more 'adult' details of planning an event or trip come naturally. They can easily adapt and understand what is necessary to make things happen. Others will take more patience and leading to learn those ropes, if they learn them at all, and the adults may have to take a larger role. Nothing wrong with that as long as the Scouts do not 'learn' to be depend entirely on the adults for things that they may very well be capable of themselves. They won't know their strengths until they get the chance to try. Much of my thinking on this goes back to my feeling that Scouting is a great place for kids to fail at something, if fail they must, because there's always someone right behind them watching and ready to set them back on their feet and head them in the right direction again. And try again they must, or they become dependent, and competency in their own abilities is something we try to teach them.

A hearty congratulations on being asked. (Here's a little more for I think you'll say yes.) Among your strengths you listed patience. With that single strength you can go far. There very well may be a fellow or gal or 2 or 3 out there who can step up when asked and say unequivocally..."Yes, I'm ready to be SM", without any prior reservations or self-doubts. Most of us (probably 99.99%) were asked, thought about it for 2 minutes, and then jumped in with both feet not knowing just what we were getting ourselves into. And probably only 2% of those regreted the decision. The rest struggled a little but gradually found their footing, went out and got more training, and just fell into loving the job. And many of us probably never took the time to look at the support group that existed to work with the SM...all the ASM's, the Committee, and others. I didn't and ended up with myself, one ASM, 20 eager boys, no training, no direction, only 2 months experience in the troop, no knowledge of troop resources..., but a lot of enthusiasm. And I'll share a secret here...the enthusiasm of the SM in doing his job and working with the kids can be infectious, especially when trying to build the Corps of committed adults leaders and volunteers. If you have the enthusiasm and interest in doing the job, go for it. If the support group necessary to make your job a little easier exists, so you can deal specifically with the Scouts and not the infrastructure and concerns of strategic planning for the year, then go for it. If that group is slim pickin's, but you think you can drag others kicking and screaming into it to love it like you do, then go for it. I'm not going to tell you that it's only one hour a week. It can be one heck of a lot more work each week, which is why the support group is paramount. But I will tell you that as long as you find it fun, you will not regret it.

In my life, there hasn't yet been a generation who did not express that same sentiment about the generation of their offspring. Starting with good 'ol Socrates, that's probably been the case ever since, and will always be. Looking squarely into the mirror in order to see that the clay we've molded into the child is a relflection of ourselves (as a generation) is not an easy thing. And so many avoid it altogether. Most of what the child becomes will be only what our guidance and teaching allows.

Our troop has never 'run it's own rafting trip', but we've gone on plenty. As with many New England troops, we head north to Maine, and raft the Kennebec, Penobscot, and Dead rivers with a commercial rafter. The one we use has been catering to Scouts for many years, but with so many troops partaking in the activity, many commercial rafters now pay some sort of special attention to Scouting groups, both Boy and Girl Scouts.

While there are many movies (some mentioned already) that will bring howls of laughter, my favorite comedy brings only grins and sad snickers. A movie (some call it a cult movie these days) released in the late 60's starring Alan Bates and entitled "King of Hearts".

Absolutely right on target. Not every young man in Scouting 'needs' to earn the Eagle. For those who do? Highest kudos and honors!! For those who don't but have spent their Scouting careers as active and enthusiastic Scouts? Highest kudos and honors, too!!! They've gotten something out of Scouting that they probably wouldn't have found in life otherwise. The single most favorite Scout I had the pleasure to work with in all my years in the organization was a young man who never made First Class. He remained a Second Class Scout until the day he graduated out of the troop...and then went on to MIT. (Go figure...) His attitude toward participating in Scouting, learning, and sharing what he knew was most enviable. His single (I hate to use the word) fault(?) was that he had absolutely no interest in advancement or patches or the regalia that went with the territory. His uniform was always impecable. But the Second Class patch was as far down the formal advancement trail as he would go. Never became as OA member. But he knew more about camping and working outdoors and teaching others to have the same fun and interest than many will ever forget. He simply refused to formally advance. In some ways, he was a problem in that other Scouts sometimes seemed to idolize his way of life. But even he was the first to discourage them from following his lead in that regard. Truly mystifying. Anyway, he was a special young man who thirsted for the learning and the participation and camaradarie, but not the trappings and formality and recognition of advancement. Much of that I still wonder about. But he took from and gave to the troop all that he could. Andsince graduating from college, I understand that the attitude he had in Scouting has taken him to great places. Learning and doing...but without the advancement recognition. No, not every boy needs to be an Eagle...if their mind is set to learn, enjoy, teach, participate, and as some do...lead.

"With that in mind, a lot of people think the SM should be the gatekeeper, but I believe the scout should be his own gatekeeper. If a scout ask for a SM conference to go for a BOR and I didn't think he was ready, I would give him the choice of me signing the book with me feeling he wasn't ready and that he might fail the BOR. Or wait until HE felt he was reading. 99% of the time, they choose to wait." Even though in your very next sentence you proclaimed impatience with adults with adults holding all the cards, by your simple act of giving the Scout a choice, you did something very important. And you might not have even realized it. You might have thought you were letting the boy make the decision. You gave guidance by not stating what you might have felt was obvious. The Scout wasn't ready. And by not giving him that verbal reassurance, he understood that more time was necessary. Kids aren't all that dumb (although we do sometimes wonder...). They can percieve whether the adult who they trust as their guide supports their decisions, opinions, and feelings by what we say, or don't say...if we as adults use that moment wisely. You did, indeed, hold all the cards. And you played them wisely. And from that simple action, the Scout learns more about himself and his preparedness, and the simple methods by which we connect and communicate with each other...child to child, child to adult, and adult to child. (In a perfect world, even adult to adult would work the same.) And by giving the Scout that choice in which he didn't feel the strong assurance from you that you felt he was ready, you did him a huge favor. The next time he approaches a target for himself along the road in life, he may remember that and take the time, by himself, to make sure he's ready. Because someday, neither you nor his folks will be there to give him that edge. But he will have learned, if by no other reason than your not saying no, but not saying yes, either.

The question was asked, in the context of a Scoutmaster Conference, what does 'participate' mean? The bulk of BSA literature and publications is pretty good at defining this and that, but a few things are left to our collective imaginations and common sense. 'Scout Spirit' comes to mind. And so does 'participate'. In my tenure I used to put it to folks this way. In my profession, a couple of times a year each employee has a 'review'. The common knowledge is that these reviews will play a part in subsequent raises and promotions. They are not a guarantee of either. They are an opportunity for both the employer and the employee to get the cards on the table and come to an agreement regarding performance, enthusiasm, capability, good points and bad points on both sides. A clearing of the air, so to speak, and making certain that both understand where the other shines, and where a little polishing is in order. Praise and critique are both expected and desired. And so it is with the Scoutmaster Conference, and the Scouts 'participation'. Mere 'participation' does not infer that the BOR will, indeed, be the next immediate step. If the SM, who is none other than the Scouts adult mentor and guide, feels that the Scout has truly shown competency, growth, enthusiasm, and Scout Spirit, then it is his duty to send the young man off to the BOR for his review, and expected approval of next rank. If the SM feels that the Scout is lacking in any area, he really should not be sending the Scout on to the BOR. Rather he should be mentoring the young man about those areas where growth and achievement still need that polish. Sending a underachieving candidate off to the BOR will do one of two things, or both. It will teach the Scout that mediocrity is a goal, setting him up for immense disappointment when the reality of life hits him squarely down the road. And/or, it will place the BOR in the position of having to either admonish the SM for not doing his job by sending the boy back with no approval, or reiterating that mediocrity is a good goal...something established by the SM when he allowed the boy to proceed. A BOR that is placed in the position of having to make that decision is no BOR at all...it becomes a referee or a rubber stamp. And that's not the intent of the BOR. So, 'participate', while it is the word in the requirement, should not be looked upon as meaning the requirement is satisfied to the point of approval for next rank. It should be looked upon as meaning that this point in the process is where the Scout learns where he shines in the eyes of his Scoutmaster and guide, or where his mentor feels that he still needs to bone up on things and can be better. And that is a darned good reason for SM conferences being held more often than just for rank advancement. Our obligation as adult leaders is to perform by more than just the written word. Guidance and advice are precious commodities and should not be given lightly.

In all the years I sat as SM of the troop, I never told a Scout he was too young to make the jump to Eagle. Never had to. Never was I presented with the challenge. The youngest in our troop to begin that trail from Life was 15. In all the years I sat as District and then Council Advancement Chairman, I was only presented with a 13 year old candidate 3 times. In every case, the boy was allowed to follow the trail and seek his goal. No matter what my own personal opinion was, for that opinion did not matter. The written rules are the guide, and can not be changed by me or any volunteer, nor any paid professional for that matter. In the back of my mind, there resided, and still resides, an opinion formed over years of working with boys, that it would be a remarkable 13 year old, or even 14 year old, who could impress me with his leadership skills and qualities. But I would watch, knowing that remarkable things do happen from time to time. I felt then, as I feel now, that the time necessary to become that boy to whom the instinct to lead, and the lessons learned in Scouting along the way all meld together in one young man who can take the reigns and lead, show the way, and gain the respect of his fellow Scouts, on his own, by his own efforts and energies, without someone dragging him by the hand or placing undue pressure on him to succeed to make Mom & Dad, or someone else happy, by earning the Eagle, does not happen by the 13th or 14th birthday...for most. The exceptions do happen. But they are few. And that should not be a surprise or a disappointment. By the time a boy passes his 16th birthday, or somewhere in that neighborhood, I would expect to see the signs, or the beginning of the signs, that the light is dawning, and wheels are turning, the desire is growing, and the understanding that working on his own to make things happen is what he will have to do to succeed. But that's my personal experience and opinion. Others make and have their own. That does not make mine wrong. Nor does it make theirs right. With regard to the comment that the time to say yea or nay being at the BOR, I'd temper that by saying that if the troop leadership and the SM have done their job correctly and well, then the time to say yea or nay is long before the boy reaches the BOR. Sending a questionable candidate to the BOR and subjecting both the boy and BOR members to that unwarranted stress and potential for grand disappointment is doing nobody any favors. The SM and the troop adult leadership should be absolutely positive and able to stand on firm ground behind the candidate to say that the candidate is 100% deserving of the Eagle. If they can not stand thus, they have no business sending the candidate forward to questionable circumstances and potential doom, and they should never have signed anything nor sent it on to the Council. That being the case, although the candidate will not know it, the situation should be one wherein the candidate will glide easily through the BOR without any problem, and be awarded with approval of his goal at the end of the meeting. If the process is otherwise, then there are SM's and adult troop leaders out there who are not doing their job well, or at all, shirking their responsibility, and placing unsupecting candidates at the mercy of a BOR whose members have not watched him and worked with him all his years on the trail. And yes, I suppose this does mean that I'm saying that the BOR is somewhat of a last minute watchdog whose opinions will and should bear more on the SM and the troop than the candidate. For, like I said, if the SM and the troop adult leaders are doing what they're supposed to do, THEY will make the most important decision in a candidates life on the trail to Eagle, by sending him on confidently and willing to place their reputations on the line, or, by shirking that responsibility, they'll send a poorly prepared young boy to a fate that may have far more negative reaching consequences than they can ever guess. The BOR does not make the Eagle...never has...never will...IF THE ADULTTROOP LEADERS ARE DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO AND DOING IT WELL. It is the troop leadership that knows the boy well enough to know that he is, or is not qualified for and deserving of the Eagle. And that's the way it should be. Just my two cents, and just what I used to instill in all those new adult leaders perticipating in training when I was on staff.

With regards to the National Supply issue, I doubt that any major manufacturer/distributor/retailer would be interested in taking that on as part of what they do. The market is limited, even thought there's many of us, there's not that many. The return to the company would, therefore be limited, thus their participation would amount to a "good-turn" affair.

Even though I understand all too well the reality of budget shortfalls, funding cuts, and tightening the belt...I find the notion of corporate sponsorship of merit badges with a corporate name attached to the symbol itself to be offensive. Have we come that far as a society (and an organzation) that we are willing to give up some of our self-esteem for the almighty buck to that degree? I would hope not. I'd rather see these corporate types simply recognizing that anonymous sponsorship (by way of name in the paper or on paper only, not on the badge) is a good thing and something that may come back to them when the scout becomes proficient in the skill and requires whatever they're marketing...no strings attached. This idea seems more like selling ones soul for a few bucks here and now. Just my (adamant) opinion.

The G2SS only contains reference to black powder in regards to muzzleloaders and the Riflery Merit Badge. There does not seem to be any reference to 'cannons'. Then again, why would there be?(This message has been edited by saltheart)

If nothing else, this tragic story certainly brings to the forefront the thought that perhaps in our zeal, vigilance, and just plain watchfulness, what with contemporary headlines screaming about crimes on children by adults, perhaps we become just a little too complacent about crimes by children on children in our care, and that they do unforunately happen from time to time. There but for the grace of God go I... And my eyes shall wider be... And although I understand the need, the need is still regretable. When I was a soldier in the jungle, my vigilance attended to my comrades, all of us in harms way. It was the furthest thing from my mind that one day, that same vigilance would be put to such use...at home. Sad it is that we have come so far from the age of stone, yet some among us have yielded thus to barbaric behavior. And sadder still that some who succumb to that behavior are so young, and yet seem never to have been offered and taught the simple notion of right and wrong, common decency, and common respect. While the issues of atheism and homosexuality may gain the headline banners and sour the mood, it is a story such as this that hurts the soul. It may only be one story, but the questions it raises may be unanswerable.

Something's wrong here. Look at the thread title. Look who hasn't posted.... Bob, you out there? Or have we inadvertently said everything that you might have? Sorry if we did...the question was posed to you and we didn't wait. Go figure...enthusiasm does it every time.

"So is the thought that the BSA is going to be ok with the message that a boy's priest is ok to guide his religious live, but is not a fit leader for the BSA?" I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves and the situation here. At some time in the near future, the BSA may, indeed, chime in on the subject if the fellow is accepted as a bishop within his church. But long before the BSA may ever be asked to state its opinion on the subject, the church itself will reach its own fork in the road, and the congregations will be tested, and will perhaps divide...long before the BSA has to react or present an opinion publicly. And that is only if an approval is forthcoming. If the 'church' accepts this fellow, it will only be part of the church. There will be dissenters, of course. Their number may be sufficient to present the church with yet another internal struggle to overcome, and that will be in the form of its mere existence as a unified organization. That seems unlikely. More likely in this scenario will be the 'new' and 'enlightened' church presenting the BSA with an ultimatum. "Accept gays, or we will not stand behind or with the award". The divided church may resolve the issue for the BSA, with those of the old church, to which the award was tied, maintaining their beliefs and trust in Scouting, and those of the new church dropping any affiliation and walking away. That's just my guess, but I think that's more likely than the BSA having to justify anything with regard to the maintenance of the award. (This message has been edited by saltheart)

It's been a long time since I've read words that put the issue as clearly, succinctly, and matter-of-factly as Roosters. Thanks, Rooster. Well said, and well done. Those are words worth copying and remembering. Those are words that don't beat around the bush, but cut right to the chase. There has grown, in this country, a genera of folks who define 'respect' as..., "If you don't agree with my position, then you don't respect me." There could be little that is further than the truth. Ours is the right to disagree, but live and let live, but not in my house, nor in my family, nor in my private interests. And organizations to which I belong will be those that believe as I do. The members shall be those with whom I can share common interests, goals, values, and beliefs, be they religious in nature, or more earthly found. Those with whom I disagree may carry on as well as they can, as will I. But in many matters, the twain shall never meet beyond a simple recognition of a right to exist. And I will not feel ill at ease not inviting them into my world. Nor will I seek paths into theirs. Again, well said Rooster. And well done.

This link might give you a little more information about the subject... http://www.macscouter.com/Cooking/DutchOven.html

Try as I might, I can't edit my profile or do anything at all to or with it as every time I take the chance and enter that realm of cyberspace, I enter a continous loop of pages showing me my username and asking for my password. The very next page verifies that both were correct, sooooo....what do I want to do? When I choose an option, I get back into the page showing me my username and asking for my pass..... ...ad infinitum....so I give up.......

Like I said, we can be our own worst enemy by actually responding to these kind of posts and threads. I can't for a moment believe that the membership here thrives on responding to abuse put out by trolls such as this. I would regard the caliber of the membership as better than that. Certainly the troll thrives on our inability to ignore him. Once a troll realizes that no one will converse with him or respond to his rhetoric, he usually leaves. Even a weed will find its demise in a drought.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

mk9750, The first 20 years or so of my life were spent by and on the sea. I've wondered ever since why I chose to go elsewhere. Now having spent the last many years away from it (but admittedly not too far), I've found just how much I miss it, and wonder if I chose the wrong direction at that fork so long ago. Such is life...and it goes on... And yes, it may be that we would be better off staying ignorant to threads of this ilk. But too often, against my better judgement, my fingers find the keys and a message is posted...even if all it says is..."I should have known better than to post". And now, back to the really important and interesting stuff of life...

Good grief, where did this come from? Troll.......... Yet another exmaple of a thread that should have ended with the OP. We can be our own worst enemy by actually responding to this kind of trolling....

A quick search of 'flag etiquette' websites confirms for me that all state flags can be flown at the same height as the American Flag, but not higher. They simply have to be hoisted after, and lowered before, the American Flag. There appears to be no precedent nor difference for Texas.