saltheart

Your best bet is to call your council office and get your DE involved. Understand, though, that the official position may tend towards the troop taking all who want Scouting. That's not a bad POV, but it is undermined by the realities of available and participating adults. It also doesn't attend to the additional, and substantial cost of equipment to support a larger troop and program needs. And, it also does not attend to the possible limitations of space avaiable where the troop meets. That being said, your DE is in the best position to help you deal with these, and other issues, and even to start any discussions that might have to be had regarding directing some of the Webelo families to other local troops, or even starting a new troop if the numbers of Scouts and adults justify taking that path. Present adults in the troop should be ready, willing, and able to discuss the issue with the DE and each other from practical and not emotional POV's. Emotions run toward that 'take 'em all' path. Practicalities may run a different direction. Best to be honest with yourselves as volunteers, with the DE, and with those seeking admittance. This is not a decision for the PLC. Adults leaders may want to invite the PLC opinion as a large inflow of new scouts will have an impact there, too. But ultimately it is an adult decision to make.

Yes, there will probably be contentious divisions on this one. In training, the words that are spoken are that Scouting should be 12 months a year. But in the very next sentence, we have always admitted to the realities. And those realities for most are that, other than summer camp or a monthly trip, the Scouting year runs concurrently with the school year. For those troops that maintain a 12 month trip schedule, opportunites to show and practice leadership area available for the whole year as long as the Scout is willing to participate on the level offered. For those troop that can't keep the program going for the summer vacation months due to a variety of reasons, those opportunities will not exist, and leadership can hardly be practiced, and the Scouts should not expect time in position for those months. It's important to make sure that the Scouts understand this thoroughly so as to avoid the very issue you describe. As the maintenance of the program for whatever term it runs during the year is, as we see it, the responsibility of the adult corps, then it is the adult corps that must make the decision to run 9, or 10, or 12 months, and be available for meetings and trips and such. Without that, if a troop does not regularly promote, follow, and work with patrol camping outside of troop camping, then there really aren't any leadership possibilities to be had during the off-months.

On a slightly different note...but yet a pet peeve... It is beyond me how I can consistently play Powerball and come up empty each time. Not just empty. but EMPTY...as in not getting one number at all, anytime, at all...never. If the numbers run 2,4,6,8...be sure that I will have 3,5,7,9... There ought to be a prize for consistently nor getting any numbers. Oh...yeah, there is....the loss of yet another buck... ...dear me.

Ownership is a difficult enough notion for even many adults to understand in this regard, never mind the boys. But I suppose I would put it this way...two ways actually. The troop is "owned" by the Chartering Organization. They brought it into being by agreement with the BSA to follow a certain path. So, that's my take on the legal part...my limited knowledge of law and 'stuff like that'. The troop isn't "owned" by the boys. But it is, indeed, their troop to fashion into a creature of success or failure for themselves and those who will follow them. Volunteer adults take their place within that framework to provide necessary guidance, mentoring, and support. By the way the boys throw themselves into fashioning the troop, they can make it a thing of great fun and interest for themselves, and in doing so, they gain a feeling of ownership. And that's the way I think it should be. Adult volunteers have no "ownership" in the legal sense. But we have great "ownership" of hope that our efforts are all worth the effort. Wish I had more time to think about this one.

Parents who think that BSA stands for Baby Sitters of America...

Go away....and take your questionable quest with you.

I think the thread author has just shown his/her true colors.....

"Obviously, you are not individual who we are seeking information from." Craneface...you won't find that person here. So as has been suggested, when you grow up, come back and join the discussions.

I don't know who you are. I know nothing about you. And I have no idea who and where you might use the information given here, if it's given at all. And because I don't know you, I don't know how information gleaned from this site might be used by you. You may be the nicest, most diligent, and upstanding type of person I might ever meet. But meet we must before I would divulge information of that sort to anyone asking. And meeting for the reasons put forth in the OP are not something I'd do. If I had a problem with the BSA that could be defined in any of the qualifications you put forth, I would be keeping it to myself, and within the circle involved. I, for one, think your request is very much out of place in this forum.

I had the opportunity this week to step out on one of the decks facing the southeastern sky, and I thought I could see Mars with the naked eye...a small star-like dot in the sky with a rather reddish tint, a long long way away. Too far to see it as anything but a red dot. So I dashed into the house to get my trusty binoculars (we were informed by the who's who of weathermen around here that one could see the planet with them rather well). And to my astonishment, there it was, in my binocular view..., a small star-like dot in the sky with a rather reddish tint, a long long way away. Too far to see it as anything but a red dot. So much for the weatherman. An astronomical wizard he ain't. Perhaps he's got one of them really expensive tripod mounted binocular things.

In my experience, the only giving of gifts to the new Eagle, if and when it has occurred, was from parent to son. And that happened infrequently. The Mrs. and I did not give gifts to our own when they earned their Eagles. Nor did we expect anyone else to do so, and if asked we told folks that.

Absolutely..... Ask not what your troop can do for you.... Ask what you can do for your sons troop.

Perhaps it's just semantics, but 'punishment' should be left for Mams & Dads to dole out as they see fit. 'Discipline' is something that we may have to deal with in Scouting from time to time when necessary. I believe there is a difference. In Scouting we do not think in terms of 'punishment' for that is beyond our realm and station. We do, however, think in terms of discipline, for without it, it is not hard to see Camp Runamok coming to visit when groups of young men and boys get together.

A place I once lived on and near...the sea. Having some years ago taken the path to 'landlubber' I miss it dearly and will one day, I hope, dwell there again. Never would have thought of the name myself. Came upon it in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The character was a giant (I am not) whose kind were seafaring but had wandered far from home and lost their way back. That much, the latter part, we have in common...sorta...

Charity, With regard to parent involvement in advancement, here's a couple of thoughts. Make sure that parents understand that Boy Scout advancement is quite a bit different than Cub Scout advancement. In Cubs, parents were hands-on with the boys. In Boy Scouts, the aim is for the boy to learn how to work on his own, with adult support for those things he can't yet do...but support and guidance only, don't 'do it for him'. Make sure that parents understand that reading their sons handbook, just like you said, is the best way to develop an understanding of what their son is faced with on his path from rank to rank. But again, stress the independency of person and the dependency on his own abilities and drive to make things happen. Less so in the early years, more so as he grows. And also, make sure parents understand that for any boy to make the most of his Scouting career and the work towards advancement, it has to be fun...the boys fun first, the parents second. If and when parents pressure their sons to work on advancement (more than the subtle reminders) working on advancement may come to be seen as no more fun that school homework. Don't dangle swords above their sons heads...like 'you won't get your license until you make Eagle'...which many of us have seen. As another thread here is discussing, only positive reinforcement will help a boy seek the fun and advancement in Scouting. Negative reinforcement will kill the spirit and drive for sure.

Whooooaaaaaa.............. "...without it coming out as "well old mr. saltheart is just having a bad day, let's wait until he leaves" Sure didn't mean to sound like that...and if I did, I apologize. Rarely would I purposely attempt to come across that way. But if I did, I'd let you know without you having to guess.....:-)

"What gift ideas have you or your sons come up with to give to a special Scoutmaster?" lol...my sons never gave me anything but grief in Scouting...actually, they were perfect gentlemen...no, that's not true either...they just grew in a positive fashion, and that's pretty much all I could ask. As for gifts, that kind of giving was fairly unusual except at Eagle Ceremonies. A tradition was well established when I came along. And that tradition seemed to say that a gift for the SM from the new Eagle was appropriate. I cherished each one. But my favorite was one I couldn't really use. One Scout, upon receiving his Eagle, gave me an imitation type Swiss-Army knife with the fork and spoon and a couple of blades and corkscrew, etc. It was probably the cheapest imitation of an imitation ever made. But it really was all he could afford. Engraved with my name, too. That probably cost more than the knife. Even though it ultimately proved to be a useless tool, it was a very nice gift, indeed.

"making a promise to perform as a leader not a kind of bribe." Barry, do you honestly equate 'promise' with 'bribery'? That would be an interesting comparison to present to a youngster. "Our Troop has had tight SPL elections where the candidates where making promises of good leadership. Promises? Bribes?" If your boundaries for the Scout program are (correctly) the Oath and Law, where in either is 'bribery' and 'promise' equated at all? One of the definitions of the 'bribe' in my Websters is something along the lines of 'anything promised or given as illicit payment". Again, I may be from the old school where we learned the the second part of the definition..."anything given or served to persuade or induce" could not be looked upon lightly in view of the third..."to influence or corrupt by a bribe". And that is and forever will be the view I would take in dealing with Scouts regarding the subject. A 'promise' made by way of a 'bribe' is no promise at all. And although young kids do not usually understand the concept of 'ethical decision making' when they first join Scouts, every little bit we do to encourage making decisions in that light, with a little bit more understanding each and every step along the way, is a positive step, even in the face of the examples of idiocy that politicians and other adults may set for them daily. Perhaps I'm just out of step with the 'new' definitions that society attaches to wrods here and there. But that's alright with me. I kinda like the old ones.

Be that as it may, Bob, and you're probably correct, I wonder if the discussion here might be worthwhile considering that this scenario could occur with almost any election, in almost any troop, for almost any position. Kids will be kids, and for most young ones, the election is still only a game.

"Just what exactly did the scout do wrong?" I could start with 'bribery', Barry.

Well, you've recognized that the fault(s) lie in more than one place. But these are just kids we're dealing with here, and they're subject to that kind of thing. That's why we do what we do as leaders to help instill values that might eliminate the need to discuss these things with them as they grow. That having been said, I guess I'm kind of old school. I've had similar experiences, and have always felt that I'm not doing the kids a favor by leaving things alone. Those who bribe will definitely think they've gotten away with something. Not necessarily a good message to send or a good tone to set out for the younger ones watching and falling prey to the offer of the bribe. Not necessarily a good message to send or tone to set out for the younger ones by not explaining to them, in terms they can handle, that the principles by which elections are handled in Scouting, and in their future, should not have a foundation on candy or other gimmees, and making that obvious by doing things over again. And not a good message to send by not sitting with the 'offender' and, as you've indicated, trying to make him see the error of his ways by having him make the admission that his actions weren't entirely Scout-like. They were, indeed, kid-like, and we have to expect that. But letting it lie without further guidance and mentoring, even to the point of forcing a re-election yourself, might set a tone that may only grow with time. Maybe it won't, but might it not be better to err on the side of making sure the message got through? The earlier these things are corrected, the better.

Sheesh, even the rafters can screw things up to a fairtheewell....lol. It used to be so easy. I just took a gander at Google for DownEast Whitewater and got more hits with different addresses than I would have imagined. I don't believe it's the same group. The one we used to use seems to have (at least by the websites) joined somehow with Saco Bound, and they share a website. They were called DownEast Whitewater Rafting, Inc. The DownEast we used was at the Kelley Resort Campground (fancy name for a place that wasn't) on Rt 201 just south of the Forks, ME. Your place, judging by the website, is somewhere else...Carhunks?? or something like that. Probably doesn't matter, though. On the Kennebec, all the rafting companies do the same trip. Those who attend directly to Scouting, as in offering work on the MB are the way to go, though. They know what the group is looking for and won't be making things up as they go. The very first time we embarked on this adventure with (our) DownEast, they didn't have a clue about what Scouting was all about. We had such a great time, and they showed sufficient interest, that when we got home we mailed them all sorts of Scouting publications along with the Whitewater MB book. I'd guess it's pretty fair to say that any company advertising work on the MB for Scouts knows what it's all about, and I wouldn't look beyond where you've gone. Sounds like they know what you want. The putting-in-place on the Kennebec will be a very well orchestrated scene of mass confusion as all the rafting companies get their gear and clients in the water. It might look disorganized, but it is very well thought out and planned. There may be as many as 10-12 companies each putting in 4-8 rafts as quickly as they can. They do this and get out on the river fast so the fun can begin and the companies are spread out along the river, especially in the big water. Out where it becomes a little calmer, especially after lunch, you might expect to see (and perhaps participate in) water fights with each raft throwing buckets of water at each other in an attempt to get each other wetter than they already are. Of course, with wetsuits and helmets, it's not likely that you'll get any wetter. But it's fun, especially for the Scouts.

DownEast Whitewater at The Forks, Maine. They have a campground across the street from their facility large enough to accomodate a whole lot of folks. Let them know you're a Scout Troop when making reservations or inquiries. The trips they offer (last time we went) were on the Kennebec from the dam at Indian Pond, the Penobscot, and the Dead River. The Dead only has sufficient water a few times a year when the hydro folks plan a significant release. And it can be a wild and wooly ride, one for whom the better companies like DownEast have some fairly stringent requirements for height, weight, experience, etc. Some trips on the Penobscot are the same. The Kennebec trips are great for first timers. It's no sissy-ride down that river, though, epsecially when the release is big. (When making inquiries, you might ask if the rafting company knows when the big releases will be. They seem to work closely with the hydro folks.) The Dead, and portions of the Penobscot are non-stop Whitewater. The Kennebec offers wild rides on big water and then quiet paddling and floating, followed by more big water, etc. All feature the same lunch-on-the-shore venue, etc. DownEast used to offer video-tapes for sale of the entire ride, same day, and they'd show them in the 'hall', as well as still shots. If you pay attention you can see the photographers (in kayaks) stopping at strategic spots to take the shots or film the ride when their own rafts come through. We would usually purchase one video each year as a record. We never had a bad trip. Sometimes the water would be a little bigger or smaller, but fun just the same.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

Eamonn, A couple of scenarios to imagine, if you will. Having had the opportunity to serve more than once as course director (before the rules were changed) I can understand the sentiments. But the sword cuts both ways. Imagine yourself going through the effort to recognize the efforts of your staff by way of more than just a certificate, beads (because they get three), and a handshake and thanks, only to learn that the staff doesn't want anything and would rather the money and effort be directed elsewhere. You're seeking that something special, just from you, to say thank you to those who are making your course as spectacular as it can be. Allowing them their own way to return the thanks is appropriate. Remember that special feeling you probably had at the end of your first adventure on staff. Someone might have said thanks to you in their own special way. And you allowed that. How great it is to accept thanks in whatever fashion it is offered. Now imagine that you've got yourself all worked up about this, and at the end, your staff simply says thanks for a great time guy, and goes home. Myself, I'd rather share the moment in whatever fashion the group desires, and be greatful that I had the opportunity. But, that's just me.

As already mentioned, BOR's should not be used only for rank advancement when the Scout has completed requirements. They can be used as Bob indicated, although I believe the SM conference is a far more productive method of review, conversation, and encouragement for the Scout. After all, the BOR does not serve as mentor and guide for the Scout, only the SM can do that. Aside from that, one quote concerns me... "The committee questions him and although he knows the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, he doesn't have a clue how to find the north star nor can he think of any other reasonable navigation plan." This says to me that the BOR is 'testing' the Scout. The BOR is not, and has not been for a great many years, a final test of skills for rank advancement. Any testing for rank advancement is supposed to be accomplished and completed satisfactorily before the BOR. Testing (or retesting) at the BOR is not appropriate. And quite frankly, it can be a very fine line between asking a Scout a question or two about a skill, and placing the Scout in the position of thinking he is being retested.