saltheart

Ah...well said. No matter the subject or the place or time. That, Rooster, is probably one of the more succinct and well spoken statements of position and argument I've read in a very long time. Something very much worth remembering. Well said...

We've used this type of idea for many years, quite successfully I might add. The trick in making it work is very much what Eagledad alluded to...adult leader training and constantly reminding ourselves what our place is...and isn't in the troop. We don't call them patrol coaches. In fact, they don't have a specific name at all...other than ASM, which is what they all are. What we do, through the PLC, is to make patrol leaders aware of one ASM to whom they each can go if the chain of command, as it is is Scouting, is not functioning or available at a givne moment when assistance is necessary. On the flip side, each ASM involved is encouraged to learn all he/she can about the members of the patrol they may receive calls for assistance from, so they can best judge how to assist when and if the call comes. Mostly we depend on the normal chain of command up to the SPL, and SM if necessary, but with a large troop, there often comes a time when the lines of communication are too busy to attend to all the incoming calls, and the overflow can be handled by the participating ASM's. It works for us, and the kids still run things knowing that adult assistance is not far away, at all levels.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

Actually, I see nothing wrong with your reasoning. The fact that he quit immediately upon receiving his Eagle speaks volumes about his own real commitment. Been there, done that. Attend to those Scouts who still belong and want to be there. As for the comment that, "if he's still registered, you shouldn't exclude him"...baloney. He walked...on his own...his choice. It seems that no one ousted him from the troop. No one forced him out. The fact that he still finds some interest only in those things that he considers 'fun', like your April trip, says that he's become somewhat selective in his interest in Scouting. Say goodbye. If his desires lead him to wanting back in...discuss it with him then as all or nothing. Your thoughts and instincts in this matter agree with mine. Now, to the flip side of the coin. Being burn't out. In our own little part of the country here, it's not all that uncommon to be faced with the 'burn't out' boy. Not so much burn't out on Scouting, but rather all the things that he has gotten involved with, and his parents have allowed him to become involved with. On top of the required things in a boys life...school, family, and hopefully church..., there's a plethora of opportunites that face challenge the boy's sense of commitment, reality, and desire. For instance, sports. Often, we see a boy who seems well rounded and committed to Scouting, only to realize that he's gotten himself spread too thin between his required life, his Scouting, and his football, basketball, soccer, hockey, track, baseball, school clubs, and friends. That's a tall order for any kid to fill. We see many parents who don't teach their kids a little bit about judicious decision making when getting involved in extra-cirricular activities. They want it all, and attempt it all. Usual result? Burning out, and not just in one or two areas. Point is, we deal with kids who have over-booked personal calendars. I've yet to meet a boy who got burn't out on Scouts and Scouts alone.

A slightly different view here. While it is the Course Directors responsibility to carry out the ceremony, the actual planning of time and place, at least in our council and those adjoining, can be, if so desired, the task of the recipient(s). If the recipients desire to receive their beads in their own troop- setting, they can make it so. If they desire to make their own invitation list, they are free to do so. If they want to receive their beads as a patrol rather than individually, that can be made to happen, also. Point is, yes there is a standard presentation ceremony that is carried out by the Course Director and his staff, but there is a lot of the event that can be left to the desires of the recipients. Or there should be... I do know of a council nearby that is pretty set in their ways and no one gets anything outside ot the same ol' place, same 'ol time, same 'ol, same 'ol... We've long ago taken the stance that after putting into the program as much as the candidates do, once they successfully complete the work required, they should be offered the opportunity to receive their beads in a setting of their choice...working with the Course Director, of course, to make sure that their aren't prior committments in the way. Hope you have the same opportunity to make your ceremony just what you want.

Our troop has used some of those type of positions from time to time when the Scouts opted to have them either as a troop or patrol position. BSA sells, or used to sell, blank patrol patches that could be artistically rendered to represent just about anything the Scouts wanted. They used those for positions not having a standard BSA issue patch. As for the rank thing, it was and still is our understanding that only those positions outlined in BSA publications count towards rank. The odd ones not having a patch or mention in the official publications are viewed as fun to have, and an opportunity to designate a Scout to get things done in an otherwise officially undefined slot. 'Cheermaster' isn't officially defined for rank, but is invaluable when the going gets tough.

And finally, put Congress and our other elected officials on the same health care, social security and retirement benefits as the majority of other Americans. It would greatly speed up a "fix." BINGO!!!! Magnificent point made. Absolutely!!! This is the 'ol, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander thing". Of course, one must realize that this will never happen. The fiefdom mentality must disappear first.

Socialized medicine? Here? I don't think so. But.... I do have real concerns about the level of care provided by a system based on profit; on the part of the doctors, on the part of the hospitals, and especially on the part of the insurance providers and HMO's whose bean-counters establish just what care they will and will not pay for, therefore, by default, establishing what level of care the patient will receive. That's frightening. It's fraught with perils for the patient who may be discharged prior to being really ready for discharge from a medical facility. Socialized medicine? No. But I do have strong reservations about the 'for profit' analysis of patient condition and health. At the present, I have no alternative to offer. Hopefully minds and masters beyond me and mine might find a 'cure' for those ills....soon.

I don't know how old you are, but I have a hunch... In order to edify you just a little, while one of the appropriate methods of addressing or refering to the President is 'President' Bush, there is no lack of respect in refering to him or addressing him as 'Mr.' Bush. That's something I learned long ago during the terms of 'Mr.' Truman, 'Mr. Eisenhower, 'Mr. Kennedy, etc. And the last thing I need is to be lectured on the appropriatness of methods of addressing or refering to the President. Someday, perhaps you might learn this yourself. As to the remainder of your ill-thought post...you said: "...but I am getting tired of everyone going crazy over two or three soldiers killed." By that one simple statement, regardless of what you might have said beyond that line, you lost any chance of gaining my respect, and perhaps many of my age and experience. The rest of the post is meaningless and even more disrespectful than just being ill-thought. I suggest you spend more time thinking about what you want to say before you post. Remember that most often, it is not 'what you say' that gains you ill-desired notariety and disrespect. It is 'how you say it'. And on that mark you have earned a zero.

Trust the media? Me? Perish the thought. I gave up thinking that there was anything resembling neutrality in reporting back in the...ah....70's, I think. Yeah, that was when it was...or somewhere around there. Been many years since I put too much stock in the American media's ability to report, and report only, without spin or personal agenda in the mix. Not too worry. I listen to the horse's mouth, not the other end.

As a native Bay Stater, (that's a person who lives in Taxachu....er....Massachusetts to y'all), here in the land of the Democrats and home of the Kennedys, it was indeed a hoot to see Arnold surrounded by them. But it's been like that around here since he married Maria. The political road goes ever on and on, and it will be interesting to see how Arnold treads upon it...with swift and light feet?...or with the heavy boots of the Terminator? LOL....

Mr. Bush was the man who received my vote. He will receive my next vote. There is no Democrat candidate worthy of my vote. I will likely never vote Democrat again. Mr. Bush is my President. That being said.... I walked the jungles of Vietnam...two tours...every day hoping that I'd see nightfall and the next morning. Death fell all around us. It sprung from tunnels in the ground. From behind trees. From the tree canopy above. Many around us perished. For what? The fight in Vietnam was poorly designed. Poorly managed. Fought by young men without and real clear goal in sight and leadership of questionable caliber at the highest levels. They perished not knowing why they fought. I fear some similarities here in Iraq. The goal has not yet been clearly won. Sadam still survives...somewhere. His agents and followers bring the message of yet another American GI death almost daily. The body bags begin to mount. I have seen this before. The goal is not so clearly defined as some in the administration say. Their speech does not reflect the daily grind and aimless torture the troops are faced with. The means and methods by which the engagement is being waged are sadly flawed with little if any direction and seemingly little understanding of Middle Eastern folk...and too few troops to complete the job. The President, whom I trust, but might question now, needs to sharpen the pencils and the arrow, redefine the goals, the means, and the methods. He needs to get the job done, return the country to the hands of the Iraqi people knowing that Sadam and his cronies are gone for good. And he needs to do this knowing that democracy as we know it may not be the best form of government for the Iraqi folks. They must find their own path, and they must be responsible for that. Americans do not hate Iraqis as a people. But we grow tired quickly of the daily death notices and apparent lack of direction as evidenced by the continuing threat of terrorism at every turn. Mr. Bush understood this, or so I thought, when he told us that the struggle would be long. The struggle might find more acceptance if the evidence of positive results and forward motion were easier to see.

"There is no such thing as a scoutleaders right to personal medical information." If that were the case, in today's litigious society, in an environment wherein the adult leader is, indeed, responsible for the care of, wellbeing of, and health and safety of each and every Scout in his charge, just how many of us would want that liability rested upon our shoulders? That's got to be one of the more outrageous notions put forward that I've ever heard in Scouting. While we may very well enjoy the Scouting environment in which we can hike and fish and camp with the boys, and help them to grow into responsible, thinking young men, part of that charge is the responsibility we each take upon ourselves to maintain the child's health and wellbeing, wherever we are, under whatever circumstances, at any time. This job, volunteer though it may be, does not come without liability. And for an adult volunteer, in any organization serving others, children or not, knowing exactly what he or she is dealing with in those in his care is of the utmost importance, doctor, nurse, or not. Would I take upon myself the challenge of being an adult leader in Scouting and the liability that comes with the territory if I did not have access to knowledge of what I'm dealing with? Absolutely not. None should be placed in that situation. Medical forms provided by the BSA for use in Scouting provide far more than just medical information. They provide emergency phone, names, and addresses. They are not separated. While I may not understand that exact parameters and circumstances of a given medical condition, I do feel I'm deserving of the knowledge that it exists among my charge...just in case. The entire Scouting world within my immediate vicinity does not need to know. But if I'm responsible for the care of the child as the adult leader in the absence of the parent, I do deserve to know. Otherwise, the liability in this world is just too great. That's the reality. And I wouldn't want the job.

It's not your fight. If the boys feel comfortable with their actions, and if you feel comfortable with their actions, and you've expressed yourself to them both, then that should be the end of your involvement. Unless the situation was one of physical or emotional abuse, you've done your job by being the sounding board for the experience, their feelings, and their actions. For the rest of their lives, they will face situations in which they may find the actions of others reprehensible and uncomfortable. Allowing them to learn to deal with that now, independently of you (unless there's a safety issue) is the best thing you can do for them. That they've already formed their opinions on the issue (not that those might not change somewhat over time) indicates that they can think on their feet and stand for whatever their beliefs are. That's a good thing in life. Your biggest part in the play is to be there when they need to talk about issues such as these.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

My Fabiano Mountain Boots. Purchased at the EMS seconds store in 1973. (Even outlived that store...it's been long gone.) Been through 2 new Vibram soles and countless laces. Even had some of the stitching redone a couple of times. But they're still with me. Of course, like the one who wears them, they're looking just a little ragged a present.

"They have the values I want them to have, in part from Scouting." Reading that made me wonder just how often we might lose sight of the values that our sons and the young men in our charge gain just from being in Scouting and being a part of a troop. The Eagle, while a pinnacle to which some will strive, is not necessarily the only measure by which we will know what these young men have gained through Scouting. And it should not be held up as such. The young man who achieves his Star or Life Rank by 18, participating to his best ability, enthusiatically and willingly, may gain more from Scouting than many who see the Eagle as the only target, and miss the scenery and experience along the way. Yes, the Eagle is a noble goal. But getting the absolute most out Scouting is better. And it doesn't necessarily take an Eagle award to get there. (This message has been edited by saltheart)

I have two sons. Both of them were in the troop while I was the SM. One made it to Eagle, but not because I was the SM. The other found interests and opportunities just as worthwhile and challenging and did not. I found it especially difficult, but I was able to treat them as I did the others who were not my kin. If they really wanted the Eagle, They would strive to get it. There can be a big difference between 'giving a push', and simple encouragement. Kids have an inate ability to distinguish between pushing and encouragement. Pushing, they resent. Encouragement, they may listen to (keyword is 'may'). With most kids, 'lazy and dumb' is not part of the equation. Their interests lie elsewhere for a time. Their energies may be spent elsewhere. It can often be the energies of our own interests and desires to see them earn the Eagle that drives us to 'push'. That is not always to the benefit of anyone involved. It would seem that the trail you walk is right one. If he earns the Eagle, he will be richer for it. But if not, he will not be poorer.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

You did the right thing. It is not the responsibility of Scouts in the troop, leaders or not, to make sure that adults in the troop, or just hanging around with the troop, know their place. That is the singular responsibility of the trained adult leaders. And your trained adult leader, the SM, performed that task poorly, as did the womans husband, the ASM. The SM and/or the troop committee should make it their business to inform all adults that participate in Scouting events of just where they are welcome, and where they need to stay firmly in the background and silent.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

Of course, all this concern and discussion about hardcover vs. softcover vs. spiral bound will be a moot point down the road a piece when every BSA publication will be available in electronic format. I can picture it now, years from now (and probably not many) Scout and Scoutmasters will refer to their PDA's (or future equivalent) for reference to the handbooks. While there may presently be a hold to the traditional paper versions, I do believe that they'll all give way to electronics in due time. Then what will we discuss? The font?

The laws regarding the actual handling of tobacco products vary from state to state, I would guess. Here in Massachusetts, at least in an establishment that stays to the letter of the law, and underage cashier must ask another employee of legal age (18+) to handle the actual tobacco sales transaction, no matter how many other items might be in the total sale. It can be quite cumbersome, I suppose, for smokers. But the law is the law. And those who keep to it and those who smoke just have to deal with it. Of course, this is not to say that every establishment in the Commonwealth does things to the letter of the law. I'm sure there are situations similar to that in the OP occurring all around us, every day.

He was put through 're-testing', plain and simple. And that's not what a BOR is supposed to do. That type of testing should have been accomplished before he was signed off in his book, and the BOR has no business putting him through that all over again. The BOR is an interview not a re-test. And 1 hour is far too long. The BOR for First Class should have been 20-30 minutes, no longer. And I'm quite comfortable standing by that.

Born left-handed. But the school system I went to as a first grader did not want to deal with left-handers, so with the permission of the parents, we were taught to use the right hand...even to the point of tying the left hand behind the back if necessary. Needless to say..... Write right-handed, but sometimes left... Bat both ways... Throw right-handed... Shoot left-handed (hockey)... Shoot left-handed (rifle)... Use hammer with both...separately, or course... Same with most tools.... Etc... To the viewer, I must appear quite confused, but to me it's rather normal. Those who can only use one hand seem the odd ones...:-)

Well, it's over, and another day begins... It was tough getting through the day. You see, we did lose a family member that day. And since that day, just within the past few months, we've lost yet another who was ever so much closer to that person than I. And even now, some in the family have trouble seeing any day as another day on the calendar. For one or two, each and every day is a trial, and the rest of the family strives to lift their spirits and assist in aiming their focus. NJ's correct in his assessment that that one particular day shall forever be stained and remain much the same as...say Dec. 7...having far more meaning than just another day on the calendar. But move forward we must, and we will, all of us. But I fear that even now, only 24 months removed from the day, Americans, in their well intended efforts to get past the hurt, have begun to forget. Not just forgetting those who were lost, but forgetting the damage done to the nation that day. For me and those close by, it's very personal, and always will be. And others can not see through my/our eyes unless they have been there...in some way, within their own lives. We understand that. But we do trust that, ultimately, the nation will not forget, and the focus of ridding ourselves of the evil, any evil that begets the carnage wrought, will be our goal...always. And with that, we move forward. Peace.

CubsRgr8, Well, inviting the DE might be a good idea, but I'd make sure he has prior knowledge of what the topic of concern is before he gets there. One of his major responsibilities within his district is the health and viability of the troops that exist, saving those that are in trouble, and building new ones where necessary and possible. A large troop such as yours faced with the potential addition of upwards of 50 new faces would, in my book, be a real 'health of the troop' issue...for all the reasons I listed above. He gets paid, in part, for making sure that 'his' troops are healthy and strong, so invite him and allow him to earn part of his paycheck by lending his office, his advice, and his experience. But, as I tried to indicate before, make sure he understands what you all see as the limits the troop committee sees for itself beyond which life in the troop becomes difficult. Good luck.

I guess I have to wonder why this is even being discussed. The semantics of beverage vs. something else (that still contains consumable alcohol) is silly at best. Keep it out of Scouting. If a recipe calls for it, find another recipe. Cook with it, or consume it, at home, not in a Scouting venue. If the boys are to learn how to cook with a substance they shouldn't legally be handling under the age of 18 in the first place, let them do it at home, and keep it there.

Not a lot goes through my mind when I don the four beads. They're a part of the uniform I wear among the many who have walked that path I have, and we all walk it together. My thankfulness to the Woodbadge experience extends from Scouting, to my private life, to my professional career when many times I find myself knowing that what I can accomplish, and how well I can do it, is, in part, due to what I've learned and continue to learn every time Woodbadge comes to town.