saltheart

My personal practice is and always has been to give directly to those I direct my charitable giving. That includes the BSA. My personal opinion is that everyone should do likewise to be certain that their dollars are going where they think they are. Simple concerns like how much of every dollar I give actually makes it to the charity drive my decisions. I would assume others share simlar concerns. Giving is such fashion avoids these petty grievances raised by those who would see the likes of the BSA give into their will. Give directly and thumb your nose a the ACLU. Beyond that, I would question whether or not federal, state, or local agencies, whose salaries we are paying with public money, should be banned from allowing the likes of the United Way and other forms of mass charitable collection, especially if agency or state sponsored, to have access to the employees. I'd be for banning that altogether. That would end much of this discussion.

"Ford would probably make a good speaker." Well, I'm not so sure that Gerald Ford was among the best speakers of his time, but in my lifetime, I'll give him credit, as I gave him my vote, for being probably among the most courageous of Presidents. Knowing full well that pardoning Nixon would be committing political suicide at the time, he did it anyway...for the good of the nation...to put the nightmare behind us...and get on with the road ahead. For that I will forever be thankful to him. That was, although most misssed it at the time, a very courageous stand to take. Few would have the courage to stand today on an issue so volatile, and do the same. He might not have been among the greatest of speakers..... ...but I would have sat silent and listened to all he had to say. Courage.

Wrong thread....figures.....(This message has been edited by saltheart)

Be very wary of what you find on the internet. There's truth out there, and then there's truth as only the author(s) will see it. And then there's those who will bend the truth so that it couldn't be recognized. Believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see. Somewhere in there will be the truth, from each side of the issue, and you will have to decipher which is which...unless you hear it straight from the horses mouth. Good luck. Oh, and by the way...to the 'college' student...the spelling is 'decisions'...not 'decesions'.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

Decisions, decisions....and now yet another.... Do I wear the red ones? Or the Black? Or do I break out the ones with the family tartan? Am I wearing my troop uniform? Or my Training Staff uniform? Which hat will I don? Shall I be holding up long pants or shorts with the suspenders? My, my...so many decisions!! Shall I wear the ones with the "X" back? Or the "Y" back? The ones with the silver adjustment clip? Or the Brass? The ones with the clips? or the ones for the buttons? (Uh-oh...scout pants don't have the buttons...choice made.) The red ones go well with the training staff epilets, the tartan ones don't... The black ones go well with...well, with just about all the epilets...and the badges.... Uh-oh...the badges...the wide suspenders tend to cover many of the uniform adornments...better go for the narrow ones... But...the narrow ones cut into the shoulders more... Gads....what to do?? Thanks, eisely...just when I thought I had everything in order....

Not any more...hehehehe..... Oh...end of hijack. Now back to your regular scheduled banter and debate.

...bear skin neckerchiefs? Bear skin? Nah...bear skin was for sissies.........we wore........... Sabertooth.........

Traditional camping...? You think that's traditional camping? Bah.... Why, when I was a boy, I remember the great outdoors and the challenge it presented. Simply surviving was an achievement. Yes, sir... Sleeping bags? Never used 'em. Tents? Never needed 'em. No sir. We'd make our own beds from available materials already on the ground in the woods. Sometimes we'd cut live pine boughs for a softer 'matress'. More often than not, we'd simply lie on the ground in a cave and sleep if we didn't have time to build our own shelter. Tents? Bah... Sleeping bags? No sir. We'd sleep covered with dry leaves, and plenty of 'em. Warm as toast we were. Yes sir. Campfires? Sometimes. More often than not we'd eat what we had without the cooking necessities. We got by. We never lacked food or water. Always camped right where both were readily available by the offerings of good ol' Mother Nature. Yes sir...we survived and we were a hearty bunch. And proud of it. Not like the weenies of today. No sir. We were tough. Once a week, in the early dawn, we'd leave camp and set out with our gear of choice, even if that was only a long pointed stick. Yes sir... And once we found and killed that wooly mammoth, we were set for a week at least...yes sir. A tough bunch we were.... oh...wait.....hey...whaddaya mean by all that laughing....?(This message has been edited by saltheart)

OK...so I haven't read all the posts, really only the OP... For all the years I've been at it, I've always expected that the Scouts in the troop would refer to any and all adults, volunteers, visitors, parents..., any of them, as Mr. or Mrs. By that same token, I have always expected the same of myself, and have always referred to the Scouts as Mr. Smith, or Mr. Jones. On occassion, in Scoutmaster Conferences and the like, I might do otherwise. Doing so is a bit more personal in my book. In the troop setting, I give my respect to the boys as Scouts and as a troop...Mr. Smith, Mr. Jones..., if I address them at all (it's most often that the SPL is addressing them). Other adults do likewise, at my request. There's a certain level of respect for each other in this, and we are all quite comfortable with it.

Giant Clove Hitch tied around a tree (no stumps, must be full size tree). Use the thickest rope you can find and make it about 40 feet long. Everyone in the patrol needs to participate in 60 second planning session and then tying. Everyone has to hold the rope during the tying and pulling tight. Fastest time wins. (Of course...having the knot tied correctly must count for something, too.) That's the knot. Lashing can be done by constructing a 3-piece flagpole. 3 poles lashed together to make a longer flagpole, 3 additional ropes long enough to use for stake-outs tied at a certain point and used to raise the pole...no hands on the pole after it's lashed together. Again, fastest time wins, and...of course, knotsmanship counts...all patrol members must participate.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

Actually, nothing is what I asked for, and nothing is what I got. My years have placed me where I don't need or desire anything that I don't already have. A Christmas List of Wishes wasn't going to happen this year. But wait..., upon reflection, I did get quite a bit. My family, immediate and extended, came to the house at our invitation and for a long Christmas Eve's celebration and a longer Christmas Day gathering. The house was full to overflowing. Some came and left. Some came and stayed the night. Some stayed yet another night. And what we shared simply by being together far outweighed anything material that I could have received. And that's the way we'll plan it for all the coming years.

The handbook isn't the best place to look for that information. If you have one, look in the Troop Committee Guidebook for a complete job description. If you don't have the book, get one. The job description should look something like this... Assistant Scoutmaster: To fulfill obligations to the troop, the Scoutmaster, with the assistance of the troop committee, recruits assistant Scoutmasters to help operate the troop. Each assistant Scoutmaster is assigned specific program duties and reports to the Scoutmaster. Provide the required two-deep leadership standards set by the Boy Scouts of America. May be 18 years old, but at least one in each troop should be 21 or older, so he or she can serve in the Scoutmasters absence. Note that the words are..."with the assistance of the Troop Committee". The Troop Committee does not hold total jurisdiction in this instance. It is reasonable to expect that the Scoutmaster will have assistants that he/she has had a hand in recruiting so that the working relationship is one of mutual respect and understood expectations. Your past SM is wrong. Note that the job descriptions in the Guidebook should be viewed as guiding, not absolute. The definitions shouldn't be viewed so absolute as to make inelligible any potential volunteer who had limited time, but unlimited energy. Accomodations can certainly be made in each ASM's defined role to suit their availablility. The most important issue is that each and every ASM work to support the Scoutmaster and the program. If an ASM isn't doing that, the position is wasted on him/her. I know of no official BSA recognized "honorary" positions within the troop structure. Such positions, if they exist at all, would be administered and recognized only by the individual troop. That, of course, does not infer that such a thing is a good thing...nor would it be bad, I suppose, depending on the position..., and the person. Personal opinion...as a Scoutmaster? I'd only want ASM's that were active...as in being there most if not all the time when the troop is active in some function. I'd only want ASM's who would give of themselves in similar fashion to myself, being available as much as possible for the troop and the boys, in whatever time they had. Honorary wouldn't cut it with me. In my book, adult leader positions are supposed to be filled with folks who are interested in helping make the program go...not to sit and bask in the glory of accomplishments past or time in office, nor even as simple recognition in some fashion. I'd want folks who would be interested in actually participating and working. I don't think you'd be out of line in recruiting new ASM's no matter what the other non-participatory ones you have now think or do. You can always go to the committee and work with them to decide where troop funds for registration are best spent...on those who work?...or those who watch. If you're the SM, you need those who will actually support you with their time and energy. You're doing yourself and the troop no favors by thinking otherwise. Good Luck. (This message has been edited by saltheart)

Suggest to 'Mom' that she back off on the June Cleaver stuff, and allow the boy to succeed or fail on his own. Of course, this suggestion would have to be made in a most sincere and respectful manner. As for the Scout, if he never said anything to his Mom about letting him do his own packing, I'd express some real dismay. That may not be the case though. He might not have had a say in the matter. Some Moms are more Mom than others. I don't think I'd interrupt his progress toward rank on this if everything else in his portfolio is in order.

KoreaScouter asked..."Are we holding the lads to a different standard?" Given the example of not knowing the difference between a city and a state that Fat Old Guy cited, I'd have to say no. Now, was the concern to be one of a Scout not being able to recite the Declaration of Independence on the spot, then I'd agree with KoreaScouters question. None of us are that infalable, but the simplest of things like those cited in the OP should be of concern to us.

Teaching as a profession suffers from the same problem that most professions do. Most in a profession are good at what they do, but there are always a few bad apples. Teaching is one of those professions that is, unlike my profession and perhaps that of many of us, held up for public scrutiny every day...24/7. That being said... For many years we've been blessed with a school system that is one of the best in the state. The school system allows us to provide the appropriate teachers with copies of the current Citizenship merit badge books, but that's pretty much for information only. Beyond that we trust that what is taught in school will be useful both in life and in Scouting, as with these merit badges. We don't, however, put all our eggs in one basket. Our merit badge couselor roster also lists a small number of adult volunteers who wish only to provide their assistance for these 3 merit badges. So we have the issue covered from 2 directions. And then, believe it or not, we actually count on Mom & Dad to help when and where necessary, too.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

As much as there may be many of us who have our own (secret?) opinions regarding the 'appropriate' minimum age at which a Scout should be able to earn the Eagle Award, none of us are at liberty to change the program, rules, guidelines, and whatever else as published by the Boy Scouts of America. And that includes the age at which a boy can earn the Eagle. For sure, there are Scouts who may never deserve the Eagle, at any age. But then there may be those deserving few who can, indeed, meet muster at a surprisingly early age. In such an instance, who are we to deny them? Rules to dictate and age to earn this or that in Scouting other than what exists in the handbook aren't in the best interests of the program or the Scouts. Adult leadership that can mentor and guide the Scout through the steps he must follow on the trail will be the best guide to the age at which a particular Scout should earn the Eagle, or any award. I would be among the first to put voice to the opinion that few, very few 13 or even 14 year olds are capable of showing what it takes to earn the Eagle. But you wouldn't find my name on a list of persons supporting a rule regarding a minimum age. Fact is that there are many 17-18 year olds who can't step up to the task. Minimum age wasn't set in stone by those who created the program, so I won't attempt to alter that. I can, though, use my position, training, and talents to help guide an enthusiastic and energetic young Scout on his way, making certain that he is truly ready for each and every next step along the trail to Eagle. If it turns out that he grabs the brass ring long before I thought he might, and made the mark at each turn along the way...good for him....no matter what age.

Here's a good link to follow... http://www.eaglescout.org These folks have things pretty well organized in a fashion for both the Scout and the leaders to follow. There's a link on the page regading Eagle Citations that will bring you back to MacScouter where you'll find another link to Governmental Officials. There's a pretty good list there. Here's the link to that list... http://www.macscouter.com/Eagle/GovEagleLetterData.doc (This message has been edited by saltheart)(This message has been edited by saltheart)

A congratulatory letter can be obtained from the President via the White House Greetings Office. You can contact them by snail mail, fax, or at their website... www.whitehouse.gov/greeting/ Others that you should be contacting are you Senators and Representatives in Washington, but you might do this through their local offices (Hartford?). Also your state representatives, senators, your Governor, and town officals. Get their phone numbers and start by calling them. You might need to mail them information, or they might take it right over the phone. Oh, and the BSA does not notify any of these folks. That's the troops responsibility, if citations and congratulations are desired. Somewhere out there on the web there is a sizeable list of folks to contact, with addresses. I'll see if I can remember... Lastly, the troop needs to provide information to those from whom their seeking thiese letters and citations in a timely fashion, and not a week ahead. These folks need quite a bit of time to get the wheels turning.

Hmmm....what was the original question for this thread..?

True...very true. But in this country we seem to have allowed for the 1/10th of one percent who need to complain to have the floor...the entire floor...all of it...to the exclusion of the majority who like things just the way they are...and have been for most of my lifetime.

The ACLU is all for free speech...as long as it's their kind of free speech. I wouldn't miss them at all if they fell off the face of the planet.

Boy, OGE..., you're taking a risk asking that question around here. But let me take a stab at it, for our troop has 'invited' a number of boys to go elsewhere over the years. I don't think you'll get a solid definitive 'this is what he'd have to do' type of answer. The way we look at it, in situations of behavioral problems, there's only so many volunteer adults. And they can only be spread so thin in the areas of responsibility that exist within the troop. When the adult/scout ratio reaches a critical level, one single onery foul-mouthed mis-behaving boy can really cut into the attention that the adults need to pay to the entire troop. The resources of the troop can opnly be spread so far at any one time. In those instances, and we've had a few, Mom & Dad are asked to sit with the leadership to discuss the situation. Invariably, their take on the subject is that their son is a little angel at home, so they don't know why we things otherwise. Our answer is that we request (read 'require') one or both of them to come to the next few meetings to witness what we see. If they can't, we can't take their boy. We don't have the resources to appoint one adult leader to be the boys mentor and guide and disciplinarian. And these issues are usually beyond what the SPL and PLC should be held responsible for handling. Unless one of the parents can attend each and every meeting and outing when their son is present, hoping that his behavior will eventually change for the best and be what they say they see at home, the boy is no longer welcome. Sorry, but we can't and won't use the few and valuable volunteer resources on one boy at the expense of the many. If they're willing to get involved, hurrah..., we'll do what we can to help and train them so they can attend to the issues of behavior while their son learns to become a 'member' of the larger group. Not that we've faced the situation, but with regard to the pregnancy issue, I think we'd have a fairly hard time looking upon the boy as living the Oath and Law. Some will say that a boy like that needs Scouting like no other. Our response would be that he needs the help of other, and more professional counseling organizations well before he needs Scouting. A boy in that situation is embarking on a trail unlike anything Scouting has to offer, and he needs help beyond what Scouting can give to prepare him for the oncoming birth and parental responsibilities. What we have seen, is boys in Scouting getting in trouble with the law. In those instances, some soul searching has been the road travelled, but in each case we've seen, as with the preganancy issue, the help and counseling the boy needs is well beyond what the troop can offer. The boys have been invited to leave until such time that both they and their parents can show that there has been a life change of direction, and Scouting can be of some worth in the boys future. We're all volunteers, and only volunteers. Many situations like the pregnancy and law issues are well beyond what even the trained volunteer can offer, knowing that he/she is going in the right direction. The professionals are trained to deal with child related issues such as these, we're not. We're only trained in how to deliver the Scouting program, and we should not pretend that we can handle things beyond that unless that happens to be our career. And even then, it should be handled outside the troop. We've had a number of boys 'invited' to leave. We've told 2 never to come back. We've left the door open for others to find their way back if they so choose and can show evidence of positive change. We feel bad every time we've had to take that road, but we don't lose sleep over it.

We've pretty much been doing that longer than I've been in Scouting. The Scout will provide a couple of copies of his proposal to the committee for advance reading and review, and then meet personally with the committee for his oral presentation. Many times we've found that there are things about a project proposal that simply don't come across well enough on paper, but do make the grade when presented orally. It also speeds up the process so that changes, if necessary, can be made in a timely fashion such that the project is not held in limbo. It also grants all parties a good opportunity make themselves absolutely clear to each other about this or that point. Actually, the process is a good rehearsal for the District level presentation for approval, as that effort is done orally, too.

First time in years that the three of us didn't get together on Veterans Day... Dad...US Marines...Okinawa Dad-in-Law...US Marines...Tarawa Myself...US Army, Airborne, Rangers...Vietnam There was a time when I didn't see eye to eye with one of them. Didn't know too much about his service. Didn't care to. Got to know the other one years later, about the same time that wounds were healing (emotional and physical), and a deep emotional respect found its way into the fibers of my being towards my two elders, and just what they had been through...as they stood by the hospital bed on their numerous visits. Since then, rarely have we not found the time to get together and stand as the flag goes by in the parades. This year we just couldn't make it. Lord willing, next year we will once again. Reflecting on what I just wrote, ever notice how very few stand and salute as the flag goes by in the parade? Ever notice the ages of the few who do? Ever have someone ask why you even make the effort? Guess it goes to show how many truly understand what the day is all about..and how many haven't a clue. A heartfelt thanks to those who do know...and remember. saltheart

Gerneally, in our area, "should not" has long been taken to mean "shall not". The general belief is that there are more than ample opportunities for challenging projects outside that venue in the wide but local world. That being said, we've never really been presented with a project proposal in our council that proposes to do work on council property, or for the benefit of the council. I'm guessing, but I imagine that most involved would simply say "no" to such a proposal. We'll apparently have to rethink that stance.