SagerScout

In Girl Scouts adults (male or female) are NEVER allowed in the same cabin or tent as the girls, period. For the little Brownies we have cluster cabins where the leader's cabin is only steps from the girl bunkhouse. By Juniors (webelo age) the girls vote for the "cabins in the woods" where there is more separation and privacy. By Cadettes (middle school) the girls are suggesting that the leaders stay home entirely - whoops, sorry girls, we gotta have our fun too. But we don't have the fire hazard since heaters are also not allowed (obviously more feasible in Texas than for youse guys in Illinois!) Don't know how I'd reconcile that one.

IMHO you have the right to see what's going on with your own child anywhere, anytime. Period. Not a negotiable item as it relates to your responsibility as a parent to protect your child. That said, there are some standards of behavior that are reasonably expected - like, don't interfere with the program, don't bring food to your scout unless you're bringing a treat to the whole group (and ya better clear that with the adults... and make sure you have enough for them too!), don't pull your scout out of his group to be with you, clean up after yourself, no fair eating the patrol's food if you didn't make prior arrangements to do so. An easy way to manage this problem, since you are obviously a parent with some interest in scouting, is to join as a volunteer, GET TRAINED, and have a great time sharing the adventure. Perhaps you could (as a volunteer) suggest a Parent Patrol unit for those who are interested in traveling with the troop. Put the parents to work with their own projects so they can leave their kids alone. I've successfully used this strategy with parents who just can't resist "helping" their sons or daughters with (for instance) crafts. I give them their own table and paints and make them go to it... Getting trained will help you understand the chaos you will no doubt witness on at least one campout, and hopefully help you shut up and let the boys work it out. It will also reduce the objection to your presence. If you happen to be female, it is REALLY essential that you understand the boy-run concept and furthermore essential that you be a competent and self-sufficient camper yourself, to set an example for the troop and reduce any distraction your presence might pose.

No. Far too young. 11-yearolds often have trouble with the transition to boy-led, a 9-yearold would be a distraction to the troop and potentially a danger. Tell his grandma (who sounds like a great lady from here) that you will help her find him a age-matched cub group and let him continue as a cub scout. As far as "he's already done" the cub activities - so what? If they were fun the first time, they'll be fun again. If they were hard the first time, he'll have a much easier time the second. Either way he wins. As far as the older boy, welcome him in your troop with open arms and to that end, help hook the family up with kind folks who will help with transportation and other such problems. The brothers will benefit from time apart as well; all too often in a single-parent and stressed situation, older siblings end up being de-facto parents for the younger ones, which is unfair to both sides. Big brother needs a time to just be a kid and not be looking out for little brother.

Here in Central Texas, there are very few areas where fires can be build on the bedrocks. They blow up as described. If any of you who come from igneous rock land come down here remember you heard it here first. Several inches of sand under the fire might have prevented it, if you really wanted to demonstrate the survival fire thing (assuming you don't use liquid chemical accelerants). But a metal trashcan lid full of dirt would have really done the job.

TJ - Based on the responses here I'm kind of sorry that you told us. It makes it so much harder for me to reconcile my own conscience with staying in this program. The only part that keeps me here is knowing that 95% of the agony over gays in scouting is at the adult level, as 90% of the boys don't really have much interest in this issue at all. Obviously the 10% of boys that are worried that they may be gay, or discover they actually ARE gay are the ones that worry about this issue. But it looks like MOST of the adults stress over this immensely. You hetero men that think homosexuality is a "choice" - do you think you could CHOOSE to, umm, get hot over men? If you were told you wrong, a sinner, ostracised from society for your choice to have female partners ... could you just decide to drop your personal biological imperative and go with guys? No? I didn't think so. So what makes you think a homosexual guy can or would want to CHOOSE to do something as drastically wierd to him as that would be to you? Just because it's a "sin"? So is premarital sex. I know not all of you are guilty of either, of course, and I would hope none of you are currently guilty of having relationships outside of your marriages. However, I'd lay odds that a more than a few of you, perhaps in your younger years, DID jump the gun prior to your marriage, and some might even be currently living in a committted (but sexual and therefore sinful) relationship outside of marriage. So you aren't all that morally straight yourselves, necessarily. But you still, I hope, "do your best". As I suspect does TJ. Please don't throw me out too. I'm tediously, boringly straight, married almost 20 years (nope, nothing on the side...) , drink rarely, smoke not at all, worship Christ in a church of believers. And TJ is still welcome at my fire. As long as he's not preaching the merits of a gay lifestyle to the boys, and is following YPP guidelines in the exact same way all you HETERO men had better be doing, I'm not seeing why we wouldn't want him around. For those of you that see only ONE way to look at this issue. I'm an environmental science merit badge counselor in a troop that is about half "creation science" families and half "theory of evolution" families. Which half of the boys should be told they're wrong and drummed out of scouts for the wrong belief system? The merit badge book refers to a date 15,000 years ago. Half the boys in my troop don't believe there was such a time. Now what?

Yes, that's pretty much how I understood it too. Unfortunately, my troop is in the closet Girl Scout category, although I don't really get why. Middle school appears to be a real jungle. My son wouldn't admit to being a Boy Scout while there either. I feel that they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater by de-emphasizing the Girl Scout name. I also think they're awful proud of these materials, it looks like a girl could have forty dollars in books pretty quickly, and not be nearly done with it, and that's before you've started the jewelry store thing. Plus $20 every year for the new books - there goes the plan of developing a troop library to reduce costs for girls with few resources. However, all that said, my middle-school girls are hot to get those bracelets and the thought that they'll end up wearing them to school is probably going to push the program along. I wish they would have used that good idea to promote the Girl Scout name and program rather than dilute it. I'm curious as to why we're promoting ageism in our programs as well. I know some VERY senior girl scouts that are the most teen-savvy and fun people imaginable, and some mid-20's moms that are real drips. Sometimes it takes a little age to realize that you CAN risk some silliness in your life. What I was really hoping to hear, though, was someone's take on what the activities were actually like. I've been disappointed in the Cad/Sr. IPP activities. IMHO mmany are vague and poorly written. Many are in the format "discover this... share with others..." Eh? How do you know when enough sharing has happened? What if you already know about it - does that count as "discovering?" And many activities sound plain dull. (The old Jr book suffered from this too, but the new book was a great improvement.) Basic writing rules were ignored - like, put the subject up front in the paragraph. Although I disagree somewhat with the rigidity of the Boy Scout merit badge requirements and the counselor protocols (never add to or subtract from the requirements), at least you know what's expected of you, and the book tells you how to do it if you didn't already know. Well, that's my take based on what I read in the magazines- anyone seen the actual books yet? Julia

Those peers who are so harsh on the boy scouts (gay, sissy, etc.) are the same kids that spend all their time playing video games - at best - and engaging in a wide variety of destructive behaviors including smoking,drinking,drugs - at worst. Sounds like sour grapes or jealousy to me. My son wouldn't wear the uniform while enrolled in public school because he wanted to fit in so badly - with these losers. THIS was the invaluable socialization lesson that I was supposed to be happy he was getting in the public schools. Great. Just what I wanted. A conformist kid aiming for the least common denominator. Now that he has been removed from public education, he wears his uniform with pride. Even presses it when necessary. Because NOW the most important acceptance arenas for him are a)his own opinion; b)his family's opinion, and c) our church. It is a significant improvement. Julia

Has anyone any info on the Studio2B program - or training - or experience - or even actually seen the materials? What do you think?

I read Dare to Discipline when my oldest son was about 2 and wouldn't stay in bed. I had never spanked, other than a slap on a hand that was reaching for something that would hurt more than the slap did (hot stove, keys into outlet...). My problem with spanking is that it is a dead-end discipline method. My problem with spanking is that it is a dead end. After reading Dobson's book, we spanked son1 when he "defied" us and got out of bed repeatedly when he was about 2. Worked magnificently - for one night. After that, he decided that the act was worth the price. Got up anyway, got spanked, cried, got up again, got spanked, cried, got up again.... Then what do you do? Cigarette burns on the soles of the feet? Ended up putting a pallet on the floor by our bed and let him know that he could sleep there if he really wanted to. Then he'd go to sleep in his own room pretty easily,but would often end up on the pallet. It wasn't as comfy as his bed, and was wayyyy less comfy than OUR bed, but he still chose it for several months. He's 18 now and still can't sleep through the night. Dobson did write another book about the Strong-willed child with somewhat more useful advice.

Wow, you must be in a council on another planet. In my council (Girl Scouts of the San Antonio Area), you can't get a camp permit without a Troop Camp Leadership trained person and a second person with First aid/CPR. That's for cabin camping at the council site. If you're going tent camping you must have OE-3, which covers tenting and state park safety rules. If you are having a backyard BBQ with your scouts you must have outdoor cooking training for that. To get their little pinkie toes wet, even in a shallow backyard pool or wading in six inches of river bed, requires a Red Cross Lifeguard over the age of 18. These rules are covered to exhaustion in Quickstart and leadership training. I can't imagine most of the girl scout leaders I know running screaming from a snake, doing the torch thing, or letting kids go swimming in a lake like that. However, I've seen that type of behavior from untrained parents, many of whom then take offense at the "ridiculous" training rules. My personal favorite was the dad along on a 3rd grade Brownie cabin campout who came running into the Kiva, nearly hysterical, when he found a scorpion on his bunk. He had half the girls ready to pack for home that minute. Same dad got all bent out of shape when he couldn't get a camp permit for an outing where he was going to take a bunch of 4th graders to the lake and drag them behind his boat on inner tubes - with no lifeguard. No Way, said the council. Good for them. Was that reasonable - well, would I do that activity with my own children? Sure, would and did and with them at a younger age to boot. Would I do it with my troop? NO HOW NO WAY! Too much liability, they do not have the swimming skills my kids do, they do not have the trust level with me that my own kids do, and furthermore it's agin the rules. Anyway, I'm wondering what planet you are Girl Scouting on because it sure ain't like that around here.

I hope I instill something of myself in my scouts - both the boys and the girls. I'm hoping for kindness, courtesy, understanding, love, discipline, the increased self-esteem that comes from genuine accomplishment, and acceptance of different gifts and talents. Lessons about sex and denominational religion are not really on my agenda. I hasten to point out that neither troop I serve is chartered to a church or religious organization, I'm sure religion would be on the agenda if we were. Can't imagine why sex would be.

Ok, I've been away. Does anyone else see a possible conflict in two threads here - One thread making it clear that moms are not welcome on campouts in at least some troops... and another stating that if a boy isn't able to self-administer his own meds, a parent has to be along to do it. This may come as a shock to some of you gentlemen, but not all scouts have fathers that are involved enough with them to go camping with them .... and if mom can't come, and no one else is willing to make sure the medication thing happens...seems to me that we could have either a sad, left-at-home boy, or one that gets in real physical or mental trouble at camp. Hmm. My personal answer goes like this: With written permission and clear instructions, I have kept prescription medications for scouts. They must be in the original, pharmacy-labeled container, and I don't carry more than the amount needed for the trip plus maybe 1-2 extra doses in case one gets dropped in the latrine. I've then done my imperfect best to make sure the scout gets it. I usually use a large ziplock per scout and stick a medication log in it to keep a record of when I've given each med. In my state (Texas) these simple precautions of documentation go a long way to protecting you against suit, although it is always a concern here in the Litigation Lottery state. Without my being willing to do this, one of my most favoritest girls could never have gone with us as she had severe scleroderma and although she was in high school, she needed help managing her multiple meds. No sense in asking her mom or dad to come with, she's now in state custody due to their alleged abuse and neglect. I have also sent medications - lots of them - with written permission and excruciatingly clear instructions with my son on campouts that his dad or I couldn't attend in the past. Thank goodness we've always had leaders that didn't mind, although they haven't always remembered to chase the kid down with it. I was never angry about that, although in at least one instance it did cause some problems ... for the leader that forgot. My scouting son isn't ADHD but out-of-control OCD is just as disruptive, trust me. And unfortunately this is one of the ailments for which medication compliance is a real problem, because when the medicine is working the kid FEELS JUST FINE and there is absolutely NOTHING to make him - or you - think he still needs to take it. It will be at least 48 hours before he gets into serious trouble, but when he does it's pretty bad. At least if he forgets his asthma meds and needs them there's a clue. It's when he starts uncontrollably coughing, soon followed in the absence of medication by turning light grey and collapsing on the ground unconscious.... Does this happen a lot? Thankfully, no. Could it happen at camp? Certainly. Would the leader like to KNOW that it could happen, and what to do if it does? Gosh, I certainly hope so! My son would be able to direct his own care for asthma all the way up to losing consciousness, but I personally feel better knowing there's an adult around with a clue. Well, hmmm. On this as on many issues, I consider it reasonable to work it out on a case by case, kid by kid basis. I think adults that are willing to serve in this capacity should be allowed to when it will benefit a specific child; adults like Mike that do not want this responsibility shouldn't be forced to have it. What will they do, anyway, cut your pay?

The middle school my son attended was in one of the most acclaimed school districts in Texas (which is like being the least-smelly of 400 rotten eggs), in a solidly middle class neighborhood. And when I visited - unfortunately a frequent occurrence since he was Spec Ed and we had about a zillion meetings about him - the strongest impression I got was that the administration saw the kids as inmates and their role as warden. All those repressive attitudes were front and center. The school has metal gates to keep the kids from entering the hallways too soon, they are not allowed to go to their lockers except at given times, random visits from drug dogs were expected, and on and on.... It was true - and desirable - that they took the kids' safety very seriously and did not allow any disruptive behaviors. But I found the us vs them attitude sad and disturbing. julia

What about holding a Scout family night? Either potluck or have the boys cook a spaghetti supper or similar. Try for donated food so you can offer this without any charge. With free food and no babysitting problem, you'll have a good chance to eyeball every family, talk to every available adult regarding what their skills are. Don't forget aunts, uncles, and big brothers and sisters. Some young people just past scouting age are now kinda wishing they'd gotten to do some of that fun stuff- tell them it's not too late and put then into ASM training! Put up some posters from local camps, camporees or whatever, and show the intro video in a side meeting room. If there IS a uniform bank available, have the info on that handy, as well as whatever financial aid forms might seem useful. Oh, gosh,you're gonna need some help,that's wayyy too much for a new leader and a friend or two to work out - so ask a largish established troop to offer you an evening of assistance as a service to scouting. It would be nice if they were from the general area and similar ethnic makeup but if not, oh, well, they're still Scouts and the uniform's the same. They can make or bring you some camp gadgets to show off .... share their scrapbook or posters, or Eagle tracking sheet... fix a Dutch oven dessert or two for the dinner, out in the church yard...umm, if any of the older boys have good communication skills they could talk one-on-one with the adults there about the roles adults in their troop take...well, a lot would depend on what boys were availabe, but if you had a young Eagle scout there who was a good public speaker he could talk about his Eagle trail... the established troop's top popcorn seller could tell how he did it, and explain how much that helped the troop and covered a lot of his personal costs....if there's a good place for babies and toddlers to hang out, like the church nursery, staff it with a couple of willing volunteers so that parents or grandparents can concentrate on the program. Keep all talks VERY short and preferably funny. Tell every family that you are very happy to see them there, you know that means that they care about their sons or grandsons, and tell them that you understand how hard it is to spare any time and money at all - and that is why you will be asking EVERY FAMILY to volunteer at least one hour a month to help deliver the promise to their kids. Explain that it can be ANYONE in the family, then list out all the ways they can help as someone pointed out above. Make sure everyone is well-fed and entertained - then follow up with sending the families home and locking in the new troop of scouts overnight to clean up the mess and plan their futures. I respectfully disagree with the previous poster regarding ignoring the parental involvement problem, although I understand his position very well. I think that it's more a matter of adapting the job to the person. Some parents are NOT well suited to working directly with the boys - for instance, some can't pass a background check. They can still make phone calls, collate mailings, and help with other matters for the troop. If they are involved and can SEE how it works, they will be less likely to be misled by misconceptions about the program.

How do y'all feel about a MB workshop, 6 or 8 hours with a dozen or so boys (our troop), focussed on one MB? I'm planning one on Environmental Science. The essay on an endangered species is prerequisite for attendance as we won't have time to research and write one. I've got some cool toys, being an industrial hygienist. Anyone done something similar and have advice? Julia PS: I wasn't convinced on the merit badges at camp either....

Well, I guess I'm the wierdest mom around. I have to restrain the SM (male) from worry over dirt at campouts. He's the kind that will never put a hot dog on a grille at a public campsite without a protective layer of foil. I believe in knocking the worst of the spiders off, maybe scrub it a little with a ball of foil, then getting it good and hot and tossing them dogs on. Haven't gotten sick yet. He's afraid to let his own kids sweat for fear their asthma will trigger. My kid, also asthmatic, has to explain any LACK of sweat, and if he's still almost a human color asthma is no excuse for not working, hiking, or whatever the program may be. Through no fault of his own, he couldn't take any boys to summer camp, but I could and did. I'm fortunate enough to share a lot of outdoor interests with both my sons. They are also fortunate enough to have a dad that takes them hunting and fishing, and one of them golfs with him a little. I don't like personally killing critters so I guess that's a guy thing for them. (I'm not hypocritical enough to get down on them for doing it, although I don't care for dove I do like deer and the audad sheep Tom got two years ago was fabulous.) One other thing: in some other threads, parents have been faulted for not helping the troop more with their disabled, odd, or otherwise problem kids. Well, in some families the MOM is the one that is best with those kids. I know it is true with mine. So if Mom can't go camping??????? Anyway, I'm not dead-set against guy time or girl time. But from a practical standpoint lots of troops do depend on women outdoors and will really be leaving some talent behind if they make a blanket rule about it.

Enthusiasm counts. Voice quality does not. For a leader, it IS somewhat helpful if you are able to end a song in the same key in which you started it. But if you can't, oh, well, sing anyway. Your fearless example will inspire the weak and shy (heck, I know I can do better than THAT). In the absence of an instrument, most adults and some children will be helped by hearing and repeating the first few notes of a given song before beginning in earnest. Helps 'em get off to a good start. Do not underestimate the power of a repetition song done in leader/response format. You can get almost anyone singing with these.

And in any event, it's worth pointing out that after crossover, AOL or not, he'll still be a Scout, working toward Tenderfoot... and so will his more experienced Webelo buddies.

Wow. Thanks for posting. I wish I'd thought of the long skinny fire pit. Julia

I totally agree with Korea Scouter. The Program Features are great resources. The thing is, my son had been a boy scout for over 2 years in 3 different troops before we ever saw them! And then it was because I gave them to the SM and the SPL. I don't know if the first troop he was in even had a copy, there was no evidence of it in the meetings whatsoever. The meetings were chaotic and apparently little was accomplished save wrestling the new scouts and calling them names; parents were made to feel very unwelcome, so there was not much chance to observe. The second troop may have had a copy but it also had an SPL who thought leader meant drill sargeant, and who thought leadership meant he and the older scout buddies would go visit outside (talk about rock bands and girls) and let the younger scouts sit around with nothing to do during meetings. The single older scout that was kind to the younger boys and would help them learn was ridiculed for it by the other older boys. He also had severe ADHD, as a result was a poor student, and poor kid had a bad case of acne to boot, all of which caught him tons of ridicule; but to me he was by far the most handsome and the best scout in the troop. He was the only one we really missed when we left. The SM said that the younger scouts just needed to learn that older boys would be like that. Boys will be boys, after all. Our current troop has the Program Features and tries to use them. The older scouts are interested in the younger scouts' progress as well as their own. What a difference it makes!

My husband and I both are involved. I was the first to jump in, he came in afterwards (kicking and screaming) but is now kinda liking it. We've not had big problems with our son expecting special treatment, but he did catch a huge load of teasing when I showed up at summer camp two years ago. You know, "you needed your mommy to come." I was there to fill the #2 spot, with everyone working we couldn't get two-deep all week without rotation. Can't say he handled the teasing well but at least there was no bloodshed. He left that troop shortly after, largely because of this type of teasing. Our new troop is composed almost entirely of parents who are loving and interested in their children's activities, and the "mommy teasing" is totally absent. I'm tickled to death that my husband finally got on board after all these years, he enjoys it and the boys enjoy him. Now, in the girl scout troop my daughter has acted up in meetings (talking out of turn, rude to me) to the point of being removed from the meeting area. She wouldn't be like that alone but in front of the troop it's like she has to prove something.

Bob White - OK, not sure of the name of the course I took. I thought it was Scoutmaster Fundamentals, took a full day, plus another evening, followed by an overnighter. Because of my experience in GS I was looking for that information (they make you neurotic about it, I'm telling you!) and I did not catch it. Julia

I would not set up the expectation that AOL is necessarily the goal for the child, without knowing him first. This could run him off. Imagine, fifth grade and already too old to start something new. If his nature is aggressively competitive and he knows the rest of the troop is going to earn it and he really, really wants to earn it too, then is the time to go to the suggestions made elsewhere about going to other meetings and so on. (and folks, I think those are good suggestions and if the scout sets the goal, I think the SM should certainly support it. ) But if he just wants to have some fun with some friends and get an introduction to the program - and become prepared for a troop - I think the advice of Bob White to use the firstest and bestest yardstick "Do your Best" is excellent, wherever that leaves him at crossover time. Just my opinion.

Write initials on the foil with mustard. That side is cooked "up" first, which dries out the mustard, and then when you turn them it burns it on. Go over the folding instructions carefully as young scouts will just wad them up and have dry and inedible food as a result of leaking packets. Be sure to TELL THEM how large a piece of foil they'll need to avoid waste from too large or too small a piece. Tape marks on the table help - pull a piece THIS long. You'll need a big fire pit to do 30 hoboes at once, a sheet of corrugated metal on cinderblocks will do nicely as you can spread the coals out in a layer one-coal-thick (make sure they are well and truly lit first!). Also, keep an extra bunch of coals hot as it can happen that you lose fire just before everything's done. If you have leftovers, well, that's a good time for the baked apples. On timing, it depends a lot on the amount of stuff in the dinner, tiny packets cook much faster than fat ones do. 20-30 minutes usually gets it for us. I have not been happy with the results of any arrangement other than packet directly on coals, as we always tend to get too busy to cook and are always STARVING. Tried 'em on a rack once, way too slow. Don't forget the sacrificial cabbage leaf on the bottom of the packet. It will lay down its life for your burger or chicken... Also don't be shy with seasonings. If you want to eat especially well and have the kids get knife practice, by all means have them cut up fresh vegetables and mush their own burger meat or steaks. If you have an otherwise full plate for the day and just want edible food in minimum time, we've done well with a big sack of frozen boneless chicken tenders, one of frozen broccoli cuts, one of frozen corn, one of frozen chunky-style potatoes, one of chopped onion, maybe one of chopped green pepper and one of green beans for them that like 'em. Ya throw all the frozen things in one cooler with the chicken on the bottom on Friday, and maybe a milk-jug of ice on top, it's all still nice and cold but not dripping nor frozen by Saturday night. Setting up the assembly line to fix hoboes with this arrangment would take adults 3 minutes so figure 15 for the boys. Well, maybe 20 for that many boys... It's reasonable to send the firemen to the pit and the cooks to the cooler at about the same time. The first packets built go on one end of the fire and you just keep going across until you get to the other end. Don't make the mistake I did once of randomly placing them on as they came. IT makes it hard to keep up with how long they've been on , we made some crunchy potato chips that way. Provide lemon-herb seasoning, an assortment of dried soup mixes for seasoning, butter, salt, pepper, maybe parmeson or grated american cheese (or leftover sandwich slices from lunch). Cheese gets melted on after the rest of the supper is cooked. Now, MY packet might have scallops and shrimp, baby new potatoes, fresh green beans, and a niblet ear of corn, with a little 3 oz cream cheese to melt on later. But that's another story.

The other scout organization teaches this: At the first of the year, get Health History Forms on all scouts (includes dr. and medication info). Make copies, and make folders that have everyone's in it in alpha order. Don't forget the adults. Use folders with both brads and pockets. Paste the council emergency guide in front of each folder. The council supplemental insurance policy info goes in the back, with a claim form. There's a wallet card with the high points listed too. Each trip, each driver gets one, with sticky note tabs on the forms for the girls she has in her car that day. Those girls permission slips for that outing - which have TODAY'S contact phone number on them - go in the pocket. Troop leaders keep rosters with ID of who is in which car. The Troop Emergency Contact back home has the outing roster (not the TROOP roster, only those who actually go on the outing) and everyone's "today" emergency phone numbers. Outings are not authorized without a TEC agreeing to man his/her phone 24/7 until the troop is back. (cell phones have made this easier). The Service Unit Director is notified in writing of all outings. This takes about 45 minutes of training time to explain, at the end of which every participant thinks that we are insane tree-haters. EVERY trip, even a museum visit, away from the meeting place requires this. It's a pain. But the one time you need all that info and have it at your pinky-tips it starts making sense. Imagine my shock when I went to 3 days of SM training and nothing remotely like this was explained at all.