SagerScout

Well, I'm currently a volunteer trainer for the GSUSA, and have been a troop leader for 5 years, and as y'all know I'm also an ASM for BSA. I've got a Star scout and a Cadette girl scout at my house. I agree with those that say we ought not be playing one-ups on one another; but I also think I might try to simply answer the question. First, please realize there are significant differences between the programs. Like, girls do not have "rank" advancement, recognitions are earned independently of one another (in general). There is no such thing as a registered merit badge counselor in GSUSA - leaders, assistant leaders, camp directors, parents all are able to sign off on IPP work. In my experience, most are pretty picky. In my opinion, the girls are expected to have more responsibility for service projects at an earlier age than the boys. OGE was close but not perfectly there with his observation that they have to do a small service project before doing silver or gold. There is a service project required for EVERY IPP (interest project patch) a CAd/Sr scout earns. Some suggested ones are things like "Host a sports day for younger girls," "Teach a group of older adults how to use a computer,"or "Volunteer to plan and conduct a weekend camporee;" :Make a videotape promoting girl scouting - let your council use it in recruiting." When the 11-yearolds that first read these requirements kind of choke, but they are getting over that by 13 or 14. In our area, for IPP work, young cadettes can do things as simple as organizing a craft time to make tray favors for the Veterans hospital, or as tough as that camporee job. But anyway, the bottom line is that any Cadette working on Silver or Senior working on Gold will have done a rock-bottom minimum of 5 service projects, not counting the ones they've just been helpers on at camp or whatever. Also, there is more lattitude offered within the badge programs to do activities that are not necessarily "in the book." This might be thought of as making it "easier" but the many threads regarding merit badge counselors that don't fully check make me feel that it's really about a wash. From my standpoint, it's rather nice as it does allow leaders to take advantage of unique learning opportunities. You know, like when you run into an especially good Native American volunteer at a museum that can cast an hour-long spell over the kids - you don't have to say "OK, girls, now that's all very nice but we've got to go count the arrowheads in Hall B to meet our Section 4.a.2.c requirement. " You can say, ya know, they learned at least that much from that volunteer as they would have in Hall B, even if she didn't cover the exact requirement. You do not need to earn silver before gold. The silver award is the highest award offered to Cadette scouts; the gold is the highest for a Senior scout, and the requirements are similar but recognize that the Cadettes will naturally work at a lower level of ability than the older girls. Girls who have been in the program all along may earn one or both. As an editorial note, girls can earn tons of IPP's or not, it is up to them, and in my area I think that there tends to be less pressure on them to fill their vests than there is pressure on the boys to make their rank and earn their MB. I don't have any parents that are pushing their girls (well, except maybe myself). My girls earned just a couple of IPP's last year, but they had a good time together so who am I to judge? I'm just the troop leader, you'll find me in the corner. With earplugs. Babbling.

Is there anything wrong with that statement? I heard that the "troop committee" voted to collect $5 monthly dues in order to address a persistent funding shortage, caused largely by merit badge expenses on top of multiple startup expenses. FWIW, I think it's a fine idea, I have no problem with it conceptually. Except that in my view, it should have been the boy's vote. (This is what I get for missing a meeting while ill.) Am I expecting too much?

For ill scouts such as Laura describes, their physicians really must be involved in the planning . No leader or parent would want to put a scout at risk, of course, and if there are ongoing concerns about the heart, well, you really can't be too careful. But I have three points to make here. First, I believe your idea of "no great rush" is very valid - I mean, the frail, sickly, underweight or overweight 11 year old may become a relatively robust 14 or 15-year old, you just don't know. A year ago my son had trouble carrying a heavy grocery bag in; yesterday he put a 40 pound bag of dog food on his shoulder and effortlessly toted it in. He even surprised himself. Secondly: One of the essential elements for building health is EXERCISE at whatever level is medically appropriate. All you cardiac patients out ther - did your cardiologist say go home and sit on the couch because you have a weak heart? Most likely NOT. Odds are, your doc said get your tail moving, and keep it moving. Lose weight, walk a bunch, swim or whatever. Of course, under supervision and with some limitations - but use it or lose it. Third - I gotta get on my soap box: For asthmatic scouts: the goal of asthma treatment is a normal life, and it is a RARE patient that cannot achieve that goal. If any of you are parents of asthmatics and your child's physicians are telling you to accept disability as a normal and unavoidable consequence of this condition, that doctor is 20 years behind the times and you need to find a new doctor. If you are hearing this kind of garbage from your pediatrician, and he or she is the only doctor you've seen, RUN, do not walk, to a pediatric pulmonologist. ASthma management - a subject very near to my heart, as this disease nearly took my son away on a couple of occasions. When he was younger, he was NOT one of those "mild asthmatics" - I remember his pulmonologist looking at him and saying, 'Kid, you scare me to death" because he was so chronic, had such an atypical presentation and could crash soooooo fast. But even at his sickest he went to school, family camping, cub scouts, the pool - all the things a "normal" kid would do. We carried a mobile pharmacy and did not take trips more than 30 minutes from emergency medical care for years - but we went. Looking at the plus side, he now does not have much trouble with altitude as long as his airways stay open - he is so used to not moving much air, he has incredibly efficient oxygen transport, like someone who has lived on a mountain. I'll never forget the time I took him to the hospital at his request and the doctors and nurses literally lining up to marvel at him. They could not hear any air moving in his chest at all - one after the other would listen, look puzzled at their stethoscope and tap it, and listen again - but his O2 saturation level was 92%. He wasn't even wheezing, he couldn't move enough air to make sounds. They couldn't believe it.

Well, it's a real problem for me and you'se guys spitting at each other isn't really much help. I know his parents well and they do not mind questions aimed at helping him distill his beliefs, nor do they object to my personal Christian witness. My biggest concern is that he will invest a great deal of time and energy into the program and then, at age 15 or 16 or 17, decide that he really, really is a genuine atheist. Hate for that to happen right before his Eagle board! He frequently attends my church's youth group functions as a visitor. One day he really wanted to go, because they were doing something fun, but he came to me and said "You know, I really want to go but I don't think it's right because I'm not sure I believe in God and I don't want to pretend - I mean, everyone is always so nice to me there." He was quite shocked when I told him that he didn't have to pretend at all since I had told the youth pastor on his first visit that he was not yet decided on the God issue. He couldn't imagine that he was accepted with open arms even though he is not from our denomination. The UU thread seems to indicate that all that is required is a belief in a Higher Power, to which I CAN envision this young man arriving. He has a great reverence for the outdoors and for life in general, which I find a dandy starting point for my observations on the Master of the Universe. Can someone tell me more about Explorers? do they have the same type of rank and recognition systems as the Scouts?

Well, certainly erring on the side of "including him in" would be my personal preference as well, as I've stated here before. But I recently read about scouts being asked to leave the organization that they have grown to love because of their expressing honest doubts about the existence of God (what was that kid's name - they asked him about "duty to God" in his Life BOR and he said he wasn't sure about the whole God thing - and he not only did not make his rank but was summarily booted out of the organization?) My heart breaks for them. I hate to encourage this boy only to have something like that happen on his trail to Eagle, I would feel I had done him a disservice.

I know a boy, age 14, who is not at all sure he believes in God. In fact he's leaning against the concept. His parents are not believers, but tell their children to make up their own minds. He's a great kid, intelligent, and generally honest (although I did catch him cheating at Scrabble once). He does not want to be hypocritical in promising "duty to God" when he's not sure God exists. But he sure would like to be a Scout, since Scouts have so much fun. What organization do you suggest for him?

mk9750 - twas nothing... taught my mom how to float like this when she was over 50, she had been a reluctant swimmer her whole life because she "couldn't float." Once she realized that she COULD float after all, she went on to take 6 semesters of college swimming and became quite a good swimmer. She thanked me over and over again as her poor swimming had always been something she felt badly about - it was a self-esteem booster for her to overcome it. (so was the BA she earned at age 55) My granddaughter is the height of a eight-year old and the weight of a three-year old. She floats this way. acco40 - Ooooohhhh, the salt water fix. Kinda cheating, of course, but still a good thought for teaching. Only works if you have salt water handy. I learned to windsurf not just in salt water but at Bird Island basin which is technically a little hypersaline. Never got good but had tons of fun. Then I moved inland and made the big mistake of taking the same board to the lake. Imagine my dismay as I stood on it with my feet wet and realized it was not big enough to float me and the sail! (glug, glug, glug) You can still sail on a "sinker," of course, given enough wind, but it is quite a bit more difficult and I did end up being towed in....

"Wet Gear" was the reason the scout's leader left early without taking care of his scout. I say again, GET A ROPE.

Well, I met a foster parent this past week, an ASM volunteering at camp. He was a really big guy, not fat exactly (although he complained about his weight) but just BIG and barrel-chested. After several chats about his Downs foster son and the little baby they took in, it became clear that his chest had to be that big to contain his heart.

You really ARE the man of Steele! For you - or any of you trying to work with thin kids on the backfloat - try this position: 1) Lungs full of air, since you've got no natural float buoys. Breathe "off the top" of the air. 2) Arms extended over your head, elbows near your ears 3) hairline in the water (in other words, head wayyyyy back, your head is heavy and will quickly sink your body) 4) keep your butt up and knees up, but let your feet hang loosely down from the knees The principle is this: your body with lungs full WILL float. Your arms, head and lower legs and feet will NOT float. Hang the heavy stuff from the floating stuff and balance it. Even my very, very skinny little granddaughter can float like this. People with more body fat bob up and down like corks.

FOG - you grasp the issue on the ziploc bags nicely. Bob - I've tried the total change of clothes in a bag but found it an unsatisfactory system as I tend to wash them up as I go, and differential drying rates wreak havoc on the plan as I'd end up mixing and matching fresh from bag and dry off line. Since I go to camp for a week with Class A's, two pair shorts and two t-shirts, and a somewhat more generous supply of underthings - I really must wash them in order not to offend.

All I can say is, find the leader who bailed out on his scout and GET A ROPE! Wet belongings are not a reason to strand a kid at camp. That is just pure-D absurd. Surely someone was able to count the available seat belts without that one leader (using fingers and toes, or little rock markers if necessary) and determine that there would be a problem at going-home time. That said, it seems to me that Eamonn acted perfectly appropriately given his circumstances, as Bob White described far more eloquently than I. Yes, I have had adults bail out on me at camp. But never without an assessment of the can-we-get-everyone-home problem.

sehicks - Is there any chance that your two same-age sons need to be in different troops? The lack of age difference (twins? or just lucky?) makes me wonder if this is his way of saying I am ME and NOT my BROTHER. Our SM has twin sons, as different in temperament as they are identical in appearance, and my observation is that they find it difficult to be "competing" in the same arena. Also, if there's any hope at all for the camping thing you might try investing in more comfortable sleeping equipment (Sam's has nice auto-inflating mats and if you're in a hot climate a lightweight fleece sleeping bag is a quantum leap in comfort). If there's no chance that a change of venue or increased comfort would help, I think you should allow your reluctant scout to quit. However, I also think you should try hard to make it easy for him to change his mind later, when he does see his brother having a bunch of fun.

Eagledad is so right. Don't plan to lead or do anything. But you might check to make sure that the patrols have the patrol equipment list from the camp materials. And if there are SM meetings, show up, sit in front, stay awake, and take notes. About 4 times my husband mis-remembered times but I took the notes. At the camp we attended, Wednesday night dinners were foil packs cooked in camp (dining hall rest of the time). It said so in the handout before camp. The kitchen issued the food, foil, and upon request, plasticware packs with salt and pepper. They told us in the morning meeting that you could request other seasonings too, and we did. Come Thursday, a female leader of another troop (about 15 boys there) raised her hand to complain that, since she hadn't read the booklet, they didn't know anything about needing to cook. They didn't get plasticware packs because they didn't ask for them, and didn't have any seasonings because they didn't ask for those either. She didn't hear the announcement that you could get those items on request, I don't know why not as she was in the meeting every morning. So this pitiful troop leader had to DRIVE TO TOWN to get matches and buy a knife to cut up the vegetables. The looks flashed around the meeting were priceless. Someone gently said "Didn't any of your boys have a pocketknife?" and she looked stunned - "I didn't think to ask, I guess that would have worked." And of course, my troop was next to theirs and we had plenty of matches and two pocketknifes and a filet knife between 5 people, we would gladly have loaned her what she needed if she'd asked, and I'm sure other troops would have done the same. (I think every scout has goofed at least once on a packing job - I got to a training weekend without a sleeping bag once, talk about embarassing! ) Now, I could wax on about how she was clearly cooking for the boys when they could have been doing so themselves, but I gotta give her a bye on that one since the timeframe between the last class and Vespers that night was so tight as to make some pre-cutting and getting the fire lit for the boys almost necessary. Still, how she could say in the same sentence "I didn't read the pre-camp booklet" and then WHINE about not knowing what was in it. You'll forget something, just deal with it. The camp commissioners will help you if you ask them, make friends with them right away.

Here are mine - All from the past week at Bear Creek near Hunt Texas - 1) My son voluntarily giving his cot to his arachnophobic buddy, so that his friend could maybe get some sleep with less fear of spiders crawling on him. 2) By Thursday, said arachnophobic boy allowing a Daddy Longlegs to walk on him; he gave the cot back that night. 3) Our very shy new scout spontaneously inviting a staffer to sit with us. You'd have to know the boy to realize how huge that was. 4) Same new scout readily agreeing to cover for our SPL at the SPL meeting on Thursday. Came back with a full report. 5) My son standing up to an older, bigger, and very "Macho" venture crew member when said member made a hateful remark about homosexuals, followed closely by a hateful remark about "Negroes." My kid said "HEY, that is SO not cool" and the other boy lamely backed off his venomous spewing. OK, so it wasn't a statesmanlike discourse but the point is that hate was not unchallenged. (This was reported to me by another scout, I didn't hear the exchange or I would definitely have been having a chat with the VC advisors.) 6) My son and his buddy completing COPE. The long-term reader will know that my son has pretty bad asthma and a history of a severe anxiety disorder, so it was more of a challenge for him than for most. 7) My son's buddy gallantly escorting me safely back to camp at the expense of his own lunch. 8) Watching my son stand up very straight at OA call-out, with his buddy grinning ear to ear and saying under his breath "Way to go!" 9) Watching the look of total amazement and absolute joy spread over his buddies' face when HIS name was called. All in all, quite a good week, I'd say. Oh, yeah, they earned some merit badges too.

OK, we only had 3 kids at camp, one first-timer, one old-timer (my son, age 15) and one for whom this was his second summer camp. The first-timer was a very, very shy boy who has been in the troop for a while but hasn't advanced a bit although he's met many individual requirements. He likes my son, and his mom said knowing my son was going was the only reason he agreed to go to camp. He and my son bond over video games, which gives you a clue how physically fit he is. Monday, he asked to call his mom, and asked a number of other questions that led me to believe he was counting the moments until he could go home again. We were deliberately vague about how possible that was, truthfully telling him that my cell phone didn't work out there and that we weren't real sure if the pay phone at the dining hall would work - but that we would check at the SM meeting Tuesday morning how he could call home, and that he should get back to us about it on Tuesday or Wednesday. The boy was clearly a bit homesick but not miserable, just wistful and rather tired from all the walking around. He accepted our explanation all right. I called his mom and reported that he had asked, and that if she TOLD us to, we would let him call her - but that we advised against it for at least a couple of days. She agreed it was wise to hold off a bit. It didn't appear to cross his mind again. By Tuesday, he voluntarily invited a staff member to sit with us at lunch. I almost fell off my bench. Wednesday he was cracking jokes with the other 2 boys in our troop, and even popped one off at my expense (not offensive, but quite funny in context). Thursday he packed his pack himself and headed off with the rest of the Rangers for a 5 mile overnighter, not a word of complaint. His mom came up on Friday morning and he barely had time to say hi to her as he had places to go and people to see....

I said it under another thread, and I'll say it again: almost ANY child that is able to walk unassisted can and should learn to pass the swim test. Many that cannot walk unassisted can still learn to pass the swim test. It's all about stroke efficiency and body position. Many will need extra practice and training. Find someone around your troop with good swimming and instruction skills and have him or her help out. My son didn't learn to swim until he was almost 10 and still doesn't care much for water sports. From age 3 until about 13 he was on oral steroids about half the year to keep his asthma under some kind of control - and the rest of the time he was on 4-5 other meds. Most exercise-induced asthmatics should pre-treat with a bronchodilator 15 minutes before trying it, as well as before trying to run or do push-ups. A good pedi pulmonologist will provide a written asthma management plan that will address what medications should be used. Scheduling swim days at the local pool for the troop seems like a great approach.

Well, OK, my SON's jeans might fit in a gallon ziploc but I'm calibrated on my own clothing - and I don't think MY jeans will... not to reveal anything about my weight...

Only been to BSA summer camp twice as an ASM, but in neither case was "down" time a problem. Our more severe difficulty was getting in everything we wanted to do. I've taken girls camping for 5 years and we've never had a problem either. Any kid with a totin' chip, a knife, and twine has plenty to do at camp. Assuming a supply of available wood, you can make walking sticks and hangars for your shirts, a trash holder, a neckerchief slide, a wooden spoon....whatever.... The camp store probably has plastic lacing and hooks, so you can do lanyards if you want. Notice, I said "YOU" can do lanyards and that is exactly what I meant. If the boys start looking bored to you, and you feel you need to do something... start yourself a project. If and when they express interest you can help them start theirs too. And Mr. Steele is absolutely right - it's the boy's choice, not yours.

OH, too late to help you but for other's reference: to help an ADHD kid pack what's needed without much help from you - buy a box of gallon-size ziplocs or larger, and help him write his packing list ON THE NUMBERED BAGS in magic marker. Something like this: BAG 1: Underwear BAG 2: Socks BAG 3: Troop T shirts BAG 4: Shorts BAG 5: Deodorant, soap (in it's own small ziploc), toothbrush/toothpaste (in their own small ziploc- nothing like having leaking soap on the toothbrush to discourage good oral hygiene) BAG 6: Bug Stuff, sunscreen, first aid cream and band-aids BAG 7: Pen, paper, handbook, merit badge books, knife, whatever else . Drawstring trash bags for dirty clothes. Towels and jeans won't fit in a gallon bag, so they go in separately. You can add the "won't fit" items to the end of Bag 7's list, or pony up for the 2.5 gallon size. Once the bags are labeled he can fill them himself, and as long as he can count to 7 he should be all good. Depending on filth and wear-n-tear, they can be left in the footlocker for next time too. For Brownie girl scouts, we made a set of these in a troop meeting before camp and it helped them and their parents a lot.

For the most part, clothes are irrelevant. Socks are important. Swimsuit is very important. If the kids swim every day, the soap is considerably less important. In Texas, sunscreen and bug spray are both absolutely essential, far more important than spare clothes or other toiletries. If you have 2 t-shirts, you can wash one every morning and pull it off the line in the evening (so dew doesn't make it unpleasantly soggy). If it's raining, as long as you have dry socks nothing else much matters anyway. One of the salutory side effects of traveling in full Class A's is that you know every kid at least started out with all his uniform components. Scouts don't have a personal stash but the troop did, and a good thing too as a certain lame ASM and our "camp" SPL missed lunch due to being too far out on the reservation to be able to make it back before serving time. See, I went up to the COPE course to see my son and his buddy - a difficult 3/4 mile trail, rocky and steep, for someone with torn cartilage in one knee, a plate in the other ankle and a barely-healed sprained forefoot. (All of this to go along with my base condition of moderately severe fibromyalgia.) OK, so it was not good planning on my part, even with my walking stick, but I really wanted to cheer the boys on. My son's buddy asked for and received permission to escort me back, which meant he left the class a few moments earlier than the rest, but I'm so much slower than a boy scout that he was far behind the rest of the class getting to the dining hall on the other side of the camp. But he stuck with me like glue even when I encouraged him to go on ahead as it became clear we'd be too late to be served. "No ma'am, I want to make sure you're ok over these rocks..." We started back at about 12, got back to camp at 12:50, too late for lunch. The kitchen had held lunch for the rest of the COPE class but Sean was too late because he chose to make sure I got back to camp safely. We feasted at camp on tuna, crackers, and power bars. I tried to add praise for his gallantry to sweeten his, and I don't believe he missed the chicken nuggets much.

How wonderful that you have noticed and have concern for this outcast scout! Is his behavior "off" in any way - in other words, can you kinda see why the boys don't choose to be around him? If yes, sometimes a quiet word to the boy can be helpful. In a backwards way, it might be helpful to reassure him that he does not need dozens of friends - but suggest that he might have more fun if he had one or two good friends. You could ask him what he would look for in a friend and see if he has any ideas of what a good friend for him would be like. He might then be able to see his own behavior patterns more clearly. And I'm not shy about telling a parent that she might consider having him chat with a professional- it's not the same thing as saying "wow, your kid's a nut case." Like you, I'm not a social worker, but the fact that she confessed her concern to you makes it seem possible that she was looking for some support for the idea of getting some intervention. There's nothing wrong with saying, gee, 15 is a tough age for many kids and based on your son's behavior in the troop - and the WAY THE OTHER KIDS RESPOND TO HIM- it seems like it could be hitting him kind of hard. (In other words, recognise that it takes more than two to cast out a scout...and it isn't always the outcast's fault.) Then suggest to the mom "Why don't you see if the school counselor (youth pastor, psychologist, pediatrician, fill in suitable person here) has any constructive suggestions?"

1. Cornstarch. Hot and humid climate here. 2. I read on these boards a suggestion for a fleece sleeping bag and have traded the threepound "three season" bag- four down here - for a teeny, cuddly Coleman fleece bag. Fantastically comfortable from too-warm-to-sleep till early-am brrrr, will add it to the regular one as a liner in the cold. Bonus is that it, with my camping pillow, will actually fit IN my backpack with a couple of days worth of clothes. Easier to wash too. Wonderful, wonderful. Thanks a million to whomever said it. I'm hoping they go on sale soon so I can hook up the rest of the family.

Is she in a small town or something? I could see tackling a troop OR a pack, but both at once could be a bit much. Our CO, a homeschool support group, chartered both a troop and a pack, but only one (the troop) has made it, at least so far. There just weren't enough cub/parent teams to make the pack go. And the troop has it's little problems as well, detailed on other threads, but we're still trying.

Rooster7 - Like you, I don't have that big a problem with the "romance" if that is what it is. I met my first husband when I was a freshman in college, age 17, and he was also a freshman - age 26. BUT - ANY person who is making other staff members uncomfortable with his/her advances is exposing the employer to harassment charges. BSA rules aside, criminal issues aside, if he's been hitting on the girls and making them unwilling to work with him, he needs to be firmly counseled or canned, period, and the sooner the better. And if the girl is leaving camp at night to be with him, that seems like something that could be a violation of work rules as well. Soooo - if you are worried it might be considered abuse, report it to the authorities as per other excellent advisors here. But even if the Scout Exec and CPS are all ready to accept an invitation to their wedding, the camp director has a staff issue that he should not duck.