Rooster7

Someone once said - "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But no one is entitled to their own facts."

BadenP said: "You three kinda remind me of the Pharisees in the Bible parading around with that look at me attitude and whom Jesus was constantly condemning." I'm so glad that you've refrained from judging others. Interesting how disagreement over the AHG program can trigger such vitriol from a self proclaimed minister. Perhaps the AHG axe which you're so visibly grinding has more to do with your personal views on faith than anything else. Hey everyone, look at me...I have an opinion that is contrary to BadenP. I think the AHG is an excellent Scouting program. Sorry - I didn't realize that liking AHG constitutes the wearing of ornate robes and saying prayers loudly on public street corners so to impress others.

Undoubtedly, BadenP will deem my opinion to be belligerent and closed minded as well. Perhaps, to save time, Scouter.com should rename this thread to - "If you agree with BadenP and/or want to insult those who disagree with BadenP, your posts are welcomed here"(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

IMO, AHG is a Scouting program comparable to the BSAs. They emphasize: Life Skill enhancement through multi-level achievement badge program. Girl leadership opportunities at all levels of programming. Developing teamwork and building confidence through varied outdoor experiences. Character development through community service and citizenship programs. Social development through organized Special Events. Spiritual development through religious awards program. Call me crazy, but they seem very comparable to the BSA. Regardless of what their website may or may not say, Ive seen one troop in action and they mirror the BSA in many ways. In fact, many if not most of their leaders are BSA leaders and/or have boys in the BSA. Faith is important. But its not pushed at every opportunity as some would have you believe. And IMO, the impetus and popularity of the AHG is the result of a poorly run GSUSA program which emphasizes feminists issues more so than teamwork, leadership ability, traditional values, and life skills offered by the BSA.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

OGE, BadenP's version of history and the actual facts are in conflict again. Look at this link, which I think is just a little bit more credible: http://www.catholicscouting.org/NCCS_History/NCCS_Chronology/nccs_chronology.html

I know how an AHG troop works firsthand... not through some friend's experience or by reading some Internet article or by some other uninformed means. And I can tell you that 95% of the garbage spewed here on this thread is garbage. They are not far right. They don't have a secret agenda. They are not evangelistic in the sense that they do not actively preach to anyone. Interweaved in the program they will act out their faith. They support Judeo-Christian values and act accordingly, and they will say the occasional prayer (and yes, they do pray to the God of the Bible). But beyond that, theres no strong overt (or covert) effort to convert anyone to a particular brand of Christianity. Now, is it possible that some backwoods group is misusing the program? I dont know? Does that happen in the BSA? Note - that last question was facetious. Of course wherever and whenever people are involved - a program can be subjected to misinterpretation and abuse. That said. AHG is simply a Christian run program that seeks to provide outdoor fun and education to girls via a Scouting venue. Unfortunately, we live in a world where folks will parse things to death in order to achieve their own goals and/or to tear down others. And this thread is just another example of that.

BadenP, You said: In the Gospels Jesus many times had to explain and re-explain his parables to his disciples who seemed to have trouble understanding their true meaning, hence the scripture quote, "they have eyes yet they do not see and ears yet they do not hear." I clearly answered your question in my last post in a way I thought you would be able to relate to the best, and was not at all dismissive unlike your own question. However I guess that you just did not see the answer. It is clearly there. However this discussion does not belong in this thread and should end here. If you had simply said yes or no - or even if you had completely ignored me I would have been happy to just let it go. But seriously, youre quite a piece of work. You piously tell me that neither of us should judge which I clearly did not do and then you go on to infer that my relationship with God is not right (they have eyes yet they do not see and ears yet). AND worse you attempt to make this judgment of me to be the last word, by conveniently noting that this discussion does belong in this thread and should end here. Well, okay thenthis is my last post on the subject. To be clear, I believe Jesus is God and is the only path to God the Father. I have no clue if you believe likewise. You avoided that question to the best of your ability. And let me end by saying Jesus had little patience for hypocrites. That assertion probably seems random to you but I think most folks, who have ears to hear, know what I mean.

BadenP, You said: I do not want to get into a theological debate with you here Nor do I. You said: I know I am right with God in my life. My post never inferred otherwise. You said: I will not presume to speak for God as to who is saved and who is not. In my faith (apparently not shared by you), if you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, then you are saved. Theres no reason to doubt that unless you doubt your own response as being genuine. But thats my faith. If you dont believe that, thats fine. You said: One definition of Heaven and Hell in seminary was Heaven is an eternity spent in the presence of God, while Hell is an eternity spent in the absence of God. Im not disputing that. In fact, Im wondering why it was in your response. You said: I also believe that God is a God of all of his creation, as Genesis says of the Creation, and it was good. God is merciful, loving, and forgiving. As to who is saved and who is not that is only for God to judge, not you or I. All your points are valid. With one minor exception, which Im not looking to debate - I agree with your assertions. But they dont really address the one question I presented. If you dont want to answer, thats fine. However, for someone who doesnt want to discuss theology, you did make many statements pertaining to your faith. So Ill ask a second time and if you decline to answer (or present another dismissive response), I wont ask again. Do you believe Jesus is God and the only path to God the Father? If you say no, Im not going to debate you or judge you. Im just trying to find out if we have a basismutual ground as Christians on which we can build.

"First of all I am not antiChristian as I am an ordained Christian minister, and an associate pastor for many years now, with two graduate degrees in Theology and Pastoral Counseling." BadenP - well, I truly hope that you are saved. I feel compelled to ask. At the seminary you attended, did they teach that Jesus is God and the only path to God the Father? I am not judging you...but I am curious. I have heard from several others that they were not so taught at the seminary that they attended. If the answer is yes, then amen and I hope one day we can reconcile our differences - as it is interesting to me how much we differ in our opinions - as we share the same world view. If the answer is no, then it is incredibly clear to me as to why we disagree on so many things.

All - Look and see for yourself. Don't believe the rhetoric woven through this thread. Investigate AHG on your own. Go visit a troop and ask some questions. Personally, I think you'll be pleased with the AHG organization.

There's no secret decoder ring for AHG members. If you attend a couple of their meetings, you'll discover that they are indeed very similar to the BSA. Many, if not most, of their leaders had boys in the BSA and wanted something similar for their daughters.

I am not a Pentacostal. But don't let that hinder your personal attacks. It is true that AHG is a Christian organization. So it should not surprise you to see its membership limited to Christians. But that does not make them bigotted or hateful. Do you go to a chess club to play checkers? There's a time to celebrate differences. There's also a time to celebrate commonality - whether that be faith, hertiage, or something else that one believes in and/or has passion for.

BadenP - you don't know what you're talking about. I know the program first hand and from what I have seen AHGs number one objective is to give the girls a safe place to have fun with other girls. While faith is important no one is forcing their doctrinal beliefs down anyones throats. The troop that I am familiar with has Catholics and Protestants participating.

CalicoPenn said, To be a leader in AHG, you must be an American Citizen. You can delude yourself into thinking this isn't anti-immigrant, but I can't think of a better way to discourage immigrant families from joining than requiring leaders to be American citizens. I really doubt that it would discourage immigrant families from joining an organization focused on providing fun and recreation to their daughters. In fact, some if not most may not want the obligation of serving the organization as a leader. BTW, shouldnt we (as a nation) encourage immigrants, people who receive benefits from this country, to have an allegiance to it? American citizenship is not such a horrible thingat least not in my mind. Shortridge said, And we've all seen how traditional values is a great rallying cry to attract young people. That words to live by marketing campaign really improved BSA's numbers, didn't it? Not everything ought to be about the numbersi.e. the one who dies with the most toys (or most members as it were) will not be declared the winner. It should be about presenting a program that benefits your children in a positive way. Id rather see my son in a small troop and learn how to treat others properlythen a huge troop whereas the boys have fun but learn nothing about character.

BadenP - What exactly did I propose? You sure managed to extract a lot, but I don't think you represented my words very well. I stand by my posting - not yours. Others can judge for themselves as to what I said and meant.