ronvo

Ask yourself this - Do you think you have ever been served by a gay bartender or waiter in a "staight" bar/restaurant? What really is the diffrence? You are just serving people. Are you comforatble in this? Can you do the job professionally and serve the patrons repsectfully? I hope that - based on what your posting name implies - by working there you don't become judgemental of your customers. You are there to serve them not save them. Also this brings up the fact that some may judge working in or just being in a bar - any bar - as wrong - but that's another thread. I say go for it. Good luck in your studies and your future. YIS, ronvo

Does any Pack represented here have an aluminum track? What brand do you have? What length? I hear it should be longer than wooden track because it is faster. How do you like it? We are looking at the track from Piantedosi www.pinewoodderbytrack.com And a Fast Track Timer from Micro Wizard - Anyone use one of these? Thanks for any advice you have ronvo

Here's Jefferson's Letter - I agree that he was trying to promote that government wouldn't interfere with one's right to freely worship as one believes. However I think that by making the statemnet that there is a wall and in other statements he made elsewhere, he also did not want relgion to interfere with government. Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists The Final Letter, as Sent To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut. Gentlemen The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing. Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem. Th Jefferson Jan. 1. 1802.

Rooster, I was just mentioning something about myself. So you can know a little more about me. I am a liberal but also believe (contrary to waht the so-called conservatives say) there much need for respect of others beliefs. I defend the producers right to have his say - I think he could have chosen a more approiate way to say it. And if he is trying to also make a statement about BSA he needs to come out and say so. UZ I belive it was Thos. Jefferson who first spoke of the wall the first amendment erected between chruch and state. "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."(Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802) Christmas has itself become so secularized and part of our society I think it can be defined aprt from its religious roots and meaning. I see no reason why anyone should be offended by being offred a"Merry Christmas". If they want to return Christmas to being more religious maybe they should offer a "Holy and Blessed Christmas" In a way I think is it is all very sad that we argue over such thing when the real work of Christ is needing to be done. Feed the hungry Shelter the homeless Give drink to the thirsty Console the grieving Gern, AMEN! On the news this morning a Senator was talking about how we don't want Iraq to become a theocracy and the conservatives I'm sure are saying yeah taht's right. Only because it is the wrong theocracy! They would love to have one here where they and be in control. YIS, ronvo

Ed, Obiviously we wouldn't have Christmas without some people believing in Christ. Not that I think you are correct, but I said nothing about the Constitution of the United States nor about any of its amendments. I said "I am a separation of chruch and state guy." Merlyn, No Doubt! Actually I began to wonder if he even knows what it is or if he just found an image file somewher and liked it. I would like to see this film to see what his view is and what evidence he presents. I am sure many here wouldn't. pax, ronvo It is the nature, and the advantage, of strong people that they can bring out the crucial questions and form a clear opinion about them. The weak always have to decide between alternatives that are not their own. - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

OK I am very much a separation of church and state guy. And I believe our organization should rethink some of its polocies. I believe that this guy has all the first amendemnt rights of any citizen. However I do think it wrong he would use a scouting background for his Declaration of War. He must have some other problems besides the ones he has with Christianity. http://www.thegodmovie.com./press.php http://www.thegodmovie.com./images/declaration-of-war800x1063.jpg Happy Holidays to All, ron Ultimately, America's answer to the intolerant man is diversity, the very diversity which our heritage of religious freedom has inspired. -Robert F. Kennedy

I think as only official uniform should be instituted. So many have instituted already. I would rathe see no uniform thatn the sloppy dress that is called uniforms that all here have seen. At least it would put the debate to rest - for a few minutes. (No your troop cannot require that the jeans be Wrangler Boot-cut only - Prewashed shouldn't be allowed. Are button fly Levis OK?(do they even still make those)) ronvo

Hunt I think you are quite correct. Scouting has unbdoubtedly always had and still has some members and that includes leaders who were/are gay. For the most part religion was a non-issue when I was a Scout as a boy and from my experience as an adult it still is until you get into these philosophical debates. Most people don't give these things as much of their time as we seem to on this forum. I do agree that the BSA should be a male only organization a place where "boys can be boys". I know I will feel the wrath here - I also think that adult leaders for the Boys Scout level should all be male. If you are to allow women to be leaders and in the OA why not allow girls in. The only reason the BSA did so I believe was due to falling numbers of male adult volunteers. I also think taht in fighting the religious/homophobe battles that thay are wasting money that could be better spent elsewhere in the program. My opinion. I know most on the list, like Rooster, will disagree. Too bad we can't have a poll of a larger number of Scouters around the country. ronvo

FORWARDED In the pre-Thanksgiving rush, we have received an early weather report from our IN-HOUSE WEATHER REPORTERS. Turkeys will thaw in the morning, then warm in the oven to an afternoon high near 190 degrees F. The kitchen will turn hot and humid, and if you bother the cook, be ready for a severe squall or cold shoulder. During the late afternoon and evening, the cold front of a knife will slice through the turkey, causing an accumulation of one to two inches on plates. Mashed potatoes will drift across one side while cranberry sauce creates slippery spots on the other. Please pass the gravy. A weight watch and indigestion warning have been issued for the entire area with increased stuffiness around the beltway. During the evening, the turkey will diminish and taper off to leftovers, dropping to a low of 34 degrees F in the refrigerator. Looking ahead to Friday and Saturday, high pressure to eat sandwiches will be established. Flurries of leftovers can be expected both days with a 50 percent chance of scattered soup late in the day. We expect a warming trend where soup develops. By early next week, eating pressure will be low as the only wish left will be the bone. HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!! ronvo

fgoodwin - sorry this thread has taken this turn - but it was inevitable. Anytime children can be taught character is a good thing. Scouts is one of many though still too few organizations that does so. Ed You are correct, but that doesn't make it right. Discrimination based on competency and ability is not the same a discrimination based on who you are ( ie color, race, creed, lack of creed, gender, sexual orientation) It will change; just take some more time. Girls will be in the BSA at all levels ( name will probably be changed to Scouting USA or some such) Homophobia will become a non-issue. Not sure what to predict about Reverence. Redefined? Dropped? Replaced? ron

You didn't. I inferred it from some of the other posts. And yes as I stated I fully agree with you that Scouting would be a good thing in schools. As the religious clubs success shows if you have a place where kids can talk about real issues, have adults listen to them, and thereby have them learn respect for others - not by being lectured to but through actual practice - kids will behave better. The Jewish club as I understand it is only using the physical plant and is not sponsored or promoted by the school. I believe Merlyn's point was that the argument has been for schools to sponsor units. The Jewish club obviously does not need a sponsor - the synagogue I guess would be the sponsor and the club a service of the synagogue. What if someone were to start a unit "sponsored" by BSA itself and meet at a school. BSA outreach program. Or is that what the LFL is suppose to be. Is LFL a successful program? ron

fgoodwin - I fully support the ideals of the the Scout Law and would support their being taught not only in the public school building but in the curriculum. It would do wonders in our schools. However I also think we need to accept the fact that this IS NOT a Christian Nation ( rather a nation mostly of christians)and that the powers that be should stop trying to promote Christianity through the Scouting program ( that part about just having to believe in something - anything is BS, and you and I both know it) I do find that by discriminating against those who aren't "believers" is not Scout like - As Scout is a friend to all - nor is it very Christian either - Love your enemy. Would not this be a way for persons such a yourself to - One do good by showing a boy how to live by the scout law Secondly show a boy what a loving person a Christian can be and by such an example make a boy want what you have. Ed - That IS one of the great things about America, but don't you think that a program such as the BSA that has become very much a part of this country should be open to ALL Americans? I am not trying to bait anyone or start an argument. I am only wishing to discuss and debate in trying to figure out my own ideas about all this. Yours in Scouting, ronvo

Though I admit to having never read it - wasn't that the premise of the book the Prayer of Jabez that was all the rage in Christain bookstores not too long ago - Pray and Grow Rich? ronvo

I think it is ironically funny that the public school mentioned is named in honor of William Ellery Channing, who was an ordained minister, albeit a Unitarian, was also an abolitionist ( un-pc when slavery was thought of as part of God's plan and supported by the bible) who pleaded for humanitarianism and tolerance, and influenced many American authors, including Emerson and other transcendentalists. In his denunciations of war, his discussion of labor problems, and his views on education, he was ahead of his time. (In part from http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/ChanningWE) While I do not deny that today people are ruder, meaner and less thoughtful of their fellow men and women, I do not think that lack of religion is the problem nor that more religion is the answer. We need to just learn our manners and pass it on to our children. To respect others. I don't see that happening in chruches. But that is just my observation. The destruction i think is coming due to our greed and self-centeredness. Both as individuals and a country. pax, Ronvo

I have same situtation but invovlves only one boy. He will be 11 in October and so does fulfill the six month requirement. If they fulfill the requirements and the troop will accept them you have no authority to keep them from moving on. What are your boys ages? Will the troop they are going to have them in a New Scout Patrol together? I think that might help the transistion. good luck ronvo

Tucker welcome to the forum. I agree that such a boy should not earn Eagle. Unfourtunately, I don't think it is so uncommon for boys his age to do such things. His was just worse and he got caught. And I also believe that even if this is his first offense and he is remorseful and should he be held to a lesser charge that the Eagle should be delayed. I would also hope that if a boy had already earned and been awarded his Eagle Badge and was "convicted" of such a crime, that Eagle award would be taken away and BSA would issue a public statement to that fact. That would help the public know BSA is sincere about the oath and law. I do not know of a similar case in either of the councils I've been in so cannot be of any assistance in how it should or has been handled in the past. Please let us know what happens. See BW - it isn't so hard to be friendly and courteous. pax, ronvo

OGE Are you a banjophobe? Are you of such a superior sort that you think only instruments heard in the afternoon on NPR are worhty? Do you think banjos should be lumped in there with the lowly accordion. At least the banjo is an Ameican insturmnet and not some foreigner! Oh if only I had some musical ability and my fingers would move that fast. Of course neither instrument lends itself to vocal accompaniament which means it would be right for me cause I can't sing either! ronvo

What is an accordion good for? Learning how to fold a map. What's the difference between an accordion and a trampoline? You take your shoes off before you jump up and down on a trampoline. At least accordion players can laugh at themselves! http://www.accordions.com/index/fun/jok/fun_jok.shtml ronvo who is was born with no musical ability and no I'm not an accordionist

Ed Yew we both have our opinions, and I do respect your right to yours. I have no proof just as you don't. However, based on the logic I presented and based on the numbers of persons who are homosexual and what those who ARE gay have stated, MY only choice is to believe that homosexuality is NOT a choice. You also stated "I love my son. Does that make me a homosexual? I also love my wife? Does loving both a male & female make me bi-sexual? The answer to both is no. A homosexual is more than a man being in love with another man & a woman being in love with another woman." Of course - what is your point here? It is being sexually attracted to member of the same sex and not to the opposite sex. I do believe in my mind - that bisexuality is more likely to be a choice than homosexuality - no proof, no reason, it is just what I think - because I don't really know. pax, ronvo

OGE You are, as often, correct, most people in most places have prejudice. And in China my example obviously wouldn't work as I stated it. However I do think it valid for our country and western Europe. Many of course think this IS the world and for most of us on this forum the history we learned in school was wriiten from that persepctive. I don't think Native Americans rellay consider Christopher Columbus as discovering the land he called America. From the fundamentalist Christian point of view - homosexualtiyt is a sin. An it will be hard to change that view. Only thorugh love (agape) will that happen. TJ - my mistake - Though from what you write, I do think you would proabaly make a fine priest. Anglican of course, Rome doesn't allow such things ;^) I confused you with Matt Hill- my apologies to you both. Gay men - they all look alike! (VERY tongue in cheek no offense) peace to all ronvo

TJ Thnak you for your calm, reasonable debate. Unfourtunatley I think you are wasting your time trying to convince people who "know" otherwise cause the "bible says so". They will not even try to understand. I belive you practice your word and love your neighbor. Good luck in your studies, I am sure you will make a wonderful priest. From another thread on same subject ED you mention Homosexuality is a choice. Prove it. You have not walked in their shoes. Logically why would anyone subject themselves to the wrath of society and, according to you God, by choosing to be gay? Have you never anguished over something. Can you even begin to imagine what what anguish and pain a person must go through coming to terms with their being gay? No one would choose such a thing. And yes I do believe that pedophiles and their ilk are entirely different and do have a choice. I think it is our own discomfort with others who are different. White, straight men have always had such insecurity and have oppressed others who are diffrent, whether black, brown, red, yellow, female, Jew, Catholic, Muslim, protestant, immigrant, native, Yankee, southerner. It is prejudice pure and simple. Only by "loving one another" such as Christ taught can we overcome this. And if you think gays are the enemy then you better pray for them even more. Remeber thought that prayer won't change God, and it probably won't change the persons you are praying for, but it might change you. I think we all fear that. I also believe that in the end this is what Scouting ideals are about and what we as leaders should be teaching. pax, ronvo

By PAUL FOY, Associated Press Writer 8/3/05 SALT LAKE CITY - A bolt of lightning killed a 15-year-old Boy Scout and injured three others while they slept in a log shelter during a violent storm. "There was a big flash and a big boom," said Dr. Stephen Morris, a trauma surgeon at the University of Utah's burn unit who was with the troop. "Somebody came running down the trails saying, 'Help, we need help.'" Morris said he tried in vain for 90 minutes to revive the boy, who had no heartbeat and wasn't breathing. Two of the injured boys were flown to the University of Utah burn unit. One boy was in good condition and the family of the other asked that no information be released. A third boy was in fair condition at another hospital. The family of the victim, Paul Ostler, released a statement thanking leaders and doctors at the scout camp "who tried so valiantly to save Paul's life." "I just sat on the bed and cried. I couldn't go to sleep. I was just sitting there thinking 'this poor guy,'" Morris told Salt Lake television station KUTV. The accident marked the second deadly lightning strike to hit a Boy Scout camp in the last week. Last Thursday, an assistant Scoutmaster and a 13-year-old Scout were killed by a lightning strike in California's Sequoia National Park. Four Scout leaders at the National Boy Scout Jamboree in Virginia were electrocuted July 25 in front of several Scouts after they lost control of a metal pole at the center of a large dining tent, sending it toppling into nearby power lines. In Utah, officials said the heavy, elevated log structure, open on one side, would have been the safest place in the mountains to seek shelter from the storm. The lightning made what appeared to be a direct hit on the structure, said sheriff's Deputy Wally Hendricks. Camp Steiner is the highest Boy Scout camp in the country at 10,400 feet elevation in the Uinta Mountains, a magnet for thunderstorms on summer afternoons about 60 miles east of Salt Lake City. All four boys belong to the same Salt Lake troop and are between the ages of 12 and 16. The boy's parents, Brent and Teresa Ostler of Salt Lake City, said Paul was an Eagle Scout, the highest rank in scouting, usually attained at an older age of 17 or 18. But in Utah, the Mormon Church advances its scouts more quickly so they can prepare for a proselytizing mission. end

Calif. Lightning Strike Kills Scout Leader By JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press Writer 7/29/05 FRESNO, Calif. - Lightning struck a group of Boy Scouts taking shelter from a summer storm, killing the troop leader and critically injuring a 13-year-old scout, according to a ranger and the boy's parents. At least one of the injured was kept alive only because the troop managed to administer cardiopulmonary resuscitation for an hour after Thursday's strike in Sequoia National Park, park ranger Alex Picavet said Friday. "That's amazing," she said. "It's very difficult. It's probably because of their Boy Scout training." The deaths come just days after four men were electrocuted while putting up a tent at the National Scout Jamboree in Virginia. Ryan Collins, 13, was in critical condition Friday at the University Medical Center in Fresno, hospital spokeswoman Mary Lisa Russell said. Earlier Friday, the boy's parents, Sue and Peter Collins, appeared to have given up hope. "We just lost our son," said Sue Collins after rushing to the hospital in Fresno where some of the scouts were airlifted. The assistant scoutmaster, Steve McCullagh, 29, was killed instantly when the bolt struck Thursday afternoon, the Tulare County coroner's office said. "He didn't even make it off the mountain," Sue Collins said, crying along with her husband and younger son at the hospital. "It's horrible. It's a fluke." The scout group from St. Helena, which Picavet said included five adults and seven teenage scouts, was hit when a lightning bolt made a direct strike on one of the two tarps they had set up in a meadow. The man was killed instantly, Picavet said. Two teenagers ran 25 minutes to a ranger station, and five helicopters flew in to evacuate the group. ###

That doesn't sound like the Scouting program to me! Sounds like a a group of parents that wnat to produce "Paper eagles" Is this a boy lead troop - doesn't sound like it. Why isn't there an alternative programon MB night for boys not interested in the Merit Badge offered. Maybe that is where you could step up and volunteer to help the boys develop. ronvo

You might try contacting your state dept of conservation or forestry Or maybe the US Forest Service http://www.fs.fed.us/ ronvo