rismith

Basement, Since you're so buddy buddy with the District Trainer why don't you go ahead and ask him about BSA's coverage of jet skis and ATVs. Or if they are even ever allowed for scout sponsored events.

old rismith is pushing my buttons thinking his way is the only way and completely correct.....NO. Been an Adult scouter for a long time, never seen anything ever done by the book. Irregardless of how many time you cut and paste you have no clue about what your talking about. your local solution is exactly that a local solution. If I'm pushing your buttons, frankly I think that's good. If you have NEVER seen anything ever done by the book, then I would say your units are in desperate need of training. Safety especially. If you think I'm annoying about rank stuff, just wait for national to bring the hammer down on you when you don't follow safety standards and refuse to honor the insurance claim. What I am copy and pasting is national policy. I have been in scouts for a long time, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe that my way is best or that I know everything. I am telling you what national says, no more, no less. It's not local, it's national. Repeat reading that as many times as it is necessary. "Sure it is boy led but the adults shouldn't just turn a blind eye to whats going just because the boys don't want to learn knots or how to use a compass. my intention is bullet proof basic scout skills, but the boys will enjoy ATV's and wave runners, Video game lockins.....Pro sport games..... " Advancement is NOT the end all be all of scouts. It is a method. As is the uniform, outdoor program, leadership development, adult association, ideals and patrols. The point isn't to "pump out Eagles" or to do anything of the like. The point is to use the program to teach life skills. If a scout doesn't learn things beyond what's written on paper, that may be a failing of a scout. If scouts don't learn how to use a compass or tie knots, that is indicative of a failure of a program. So when I say I'm not going to penalize a boy, it's because I know, from experience, that you can't win every battle. If a scout thinks advancement is the end all be all of scouting its because we're providing a program that emphasizes it beyond it's necessity. Overly elaborate coronation CoH, idolizing the Eagle, etc. don't help either. And when it comes down to, I can't force them to do more than is required. It reminds me of the old joke. What do you call the med student who did the bare minimum to pass? Doctor. Now there are Eagle scouts who did more to impress me than others, but that doesn't make them anymore an Eagle than the others. They just happen to be Eagle scouts who did more than was required. If you believe that scout skills are the most important thing to know, then worry about emphasizing it in your program - teaching scout skills as a part of scout meetings, incorporate games into meetings and outings, encourage creating camp devices and involve boys in maintenance of equipment. When you start doing those things, it doesn't really matter if you "mastered" the skill when you signed off on a requirement, because they will be brought up again and again and again. There will be opportunity to use those skills again because the program encourages their use. I want the poor boys from the hood to beat the rich boys from the burbs at the spring camporee. The first for our district in memory. Great goal - how are you going to help them? Edit: I accidentally a word(This message has been edited by rismith)

Eagle, I can actually relate to your anecdote. Several years ago had a scout from my troop whose parents had ambitions for him to be the youngest Eagle ever. Parents signed off on every merit badge and almost every requirement for ranks. After his BoR, the board unanimously rejected him because they didn't believe he had actually done everything. When I first heard the story, I agreed with the board. The council overruled and was ticked until I heard their logic. If, after the first few merit badges we had approached the parents and told them that unless they were approved by the council to be merit badge counselors and for that rank, they could no longer continue to do that. However, up until that point, everything they did counted. What actually happened was that far after the fact, the BoR took it upon themselves to retest the requirements, which they aren't supposed to do. It really came down to while the parent's actions were reprehensible and probably unethical, we don't punish the boy. If we had taken proactive action a long time ago, it would have been fine, but doing so after the fact isn't ok. For schadenfreude, he was the youngest eagle - for about a week.

That would probably be the most honest answer. That question, with possibly the personal nature of it aside, sounds ok in a BoR. It just depends on how it's used. There shouldn't be a right or wrong answer for the question, but should be a variety of ways to use it as a means to discussion. How would you prepare yourself for such an event? How could you calm yourself down enough to take basic action? There are a lot of directions you can take it, but as long as you give room to maneuver it can work. That being said, that question is probably not appropriate for every Eagle candidate. An older and more mature scout might be suited to handle it, but a younger scout would like not. Edit: Lisa, you're correct.(This message has been edited by rismith)

Basement, yes there is a central and standard requirement. It is the guide to advancement. That's what it comes down to. No unit runs completely by the book, because I have serious doubts any one person is both knowledgable and skillful enough to run it that way. However, we should strive towards those standards and seek guidance to find ways to do so. Also I have no idea what this means: "Locally skills knowledge are often asked.....such ask a base first aid question......"

Joe just cares about blah people.

Lisa, I went back to check on my information. This is what the GTA says: Scout Rank The particulars below pertain only to the Eagle Scout rank. 1. Council advancement committees must determine and make knownmethod(s) for conducting Eagle Scout boards of review: whether unit committees or the council or district advancement committees administer them, and also how board chairpersons are selected. 2. If conducted at the unit level, at least one district or council representative must serve as a member. If the unit requests it, more than one may do so.

Another tidbit from the GTA: 8.0.0.2 Boards of Review Must Be Granted When Requirements Are Met A Scout cannot be denied this opportunity. When **he** believes he has completed all the requirements, including a Scoutmaster conference, it is up to the unit leader and committee to assure a board of review is held. Scoutmasters, for example, do not have authority to expect a boy to request one, or to defer him, or to ask him to perform beyond the requirements in order to be granted one.

I have sat on a few dozen Eagle BoRs so let me snuff this out right now - previously learned skills are NOT up for review at the BoR. I've personally asked national about this and received confirmation. And an edit for the exact langauge of the GTA: 8.0.1.1 Not a Retest or Examination Though one reason for a board of review is to ensure the Scout did what he was supposed to do to meet the requirements, it shall become neither a retest or examination, nor a challenge of his knowledge. In most cases it should, instead, be a celebration of accomplishment. Remember, it is more about the journey. A badge recognizes what a young man is able to do and how he has grown. It is not so much, a reward for what he has done. See Mechanics of Advancement: In Boy Scouting and Varsity Scouting, 4.2.0.0.(This message has been edited by rismith)

There is literally no way I could be any more in disagreement with the original post. Eagle boards of honor are done at the district level or higher - it is NOT appropriate for a troop to conduct them on their own. That alone should be enough to dispell the "troop can decide" notion. The Eagle is not a recognition by the peers like the Order of the Arrow election or Vigil Honor. If there is a troop that is honestly petty enough to snub an Eagle, well that really says a lot more about the troop than the scout.(This message has been edited by rismith)

JoeBob, The motivation is because I'm not quite sure this scout is "the lowest common denominator." I know what is in the guide to advancement, I know the aims and methods of scouting, and I want to make sure that they are followed for the benefit of scouts, rather than the pride of adults. In the end, if the boy doesn't get Eagle? I'm ok with that. If he hasn't done what is expected and it's kosher with the guide to advancement, I don't have a problem with it.

Which is why they can choose to not run again, if they choose. I'm not demanding anyone run for a position or not. I just think it's a decision boys can make for themselves whether they want to do the job or not. I don't see where you get the "adult led troop" from that at all.

It's a question of philosophy to me. The point of the Patrol Leader is that he is supposed to be a leader. I don't personally like the pre-determined election dates because I believe if a scout isn't cutting it, the patrol should be able to hold a new election to find a more suitable leader. If one person is especially adept at it, they can hold it for quite a bit of time. If they aren't, or just get bored, they can step down whenever they or their patrol wants. If the question is about letting others get a chance to lead, that's fine, but it should be a decision left to boys. I would personally rather have a patrol leader stay in the position and hone his skills for a little longer than lose one just as he is really hitting his groove. There will be times where people overstay, but I don't believe it is necessarily after only 6 months.

When we talk about "being deserving of Eagle" what are we really talking about here? Do you mean honor scouts? A scout can reach Eagle and never be a member of the Order of the Arrow, even though its "Scouting's National Honor Society." Do we mean the best of the best? If so, what do we do about developmentally disabled scouts, who put in a lot of effort, but will never have the "camping skills" that I have seen bemoaned in this thread? I'm curious because I have yet to see a clear standard that can be applied to everyone. My biggest problem with this situation is that the standard isn't being applied to everyone, it's being applied to this youth only. Advancement is a means to an end and a method of the scouting program. Eagle may be the highest rank, but it is not the one BP thought most important, nor is it the one that national today believes to be the most important. I appreciate the obvious pride people have in reaching Eagle and seeing others reach it, but it's not the end all be all of scouting that it's being made to be. Now, since it hasn't been quoted, here is the excerpted relevant secton to the GTA 2011: 1. The Scout is registered. The youth is registered in his unit for at least the time period indicated in the requirement, and he has indicated in some way, through word or action, that he considers himself a member. If a boy was supposed to have been registered, but for whatever reason was not, discuss with the local council registrar the possibility of back-registering him. I think all can agree that the scout here has met this. Though the troop may not see it that way, from everything I've read that sounds correct. 2. The Scout is in good standing. A Scout is considered in good standing with his unit as long as he has not been dismissed for disciplinary reasons. He must also be in good standing with the local council and the Boy Scouts of America. (In the rare case he is not, communications will have been delivered.) I haven't heard anything discipline related thus far and it sounds like he is welcome at meetings. Check that one off. 3. The Scout meets the units reasonable expectations; or, if not, a lesser level of activity is explained. If, for the time period required, a Scout or qualifying Venturer or Sea Scout meets those aspects of his units pre-established expectations that refer to a level of activity, then he is considered active and the requirement is met. Time counted as active need not be consecutive. A boy may piece together any times he has been active and still qualify. Now let's talk about this first. The key phrase here is **pre-established.** These expectations must be made clear ahead of time and not just when the scout is going for Eagle. If the troop wants to make these standards, they need tomake them ahead of time and let everyone know what is expected. A good time to review this is during a scoutmaster conference and during the board of review. Alternative to the third test if expectations are not met: If a young man has fallen below his units activityoriented expectations, then it must be due to other positive endeavors in or out of Scoutingor to noteworthy circumstances that have prevented a higher level of participation (see below). In this case a Scout is considered active if a board of review can agree that Scouting values have already taken hold and been exhibited. This might be evidenced, for example, in how he lives his life and relates to others in his community, at school, in his religious life, or in Scouting. It is also acceptable to consider and count positive activities outside Scouting when they, too, contribute to his growth in character, citizenship, or personal fitness. Remember; it is not so much about what a Scout has done. It is about what he is able to do and how he has grown. Now let's review what is being said here. If a scout is busy doing other activities, it is important to consider them as well. What is important here is to assess how his growth has come along. The original poster seemed to come off as dismissive of the boys outside activities, but I haven't heard much discussion of what those activities entail. How involved with band is he? What kind of family outings is he going on? How is he doing outside of scouting? These are important questions to ask. Separately, this section doesn't say this is a scoutmaster assessment. It says it is a board of review assessment. It's important not just to note what is being said, but who it is being said to. There may be, of course, registered youth who appear to have zero level of activity. Maybe they are out of the country on an exchange program, or away at school. Or maybe we just havent seen them and wonder if theyve quit. To pass the first test above, a Scout must be registered. But he must also have made it clear through outright participation or by communicating in some way that he still considers himself a member, even thoughfor nowhe may not meet full expectations. A conscientious leader might make a call and discover the boys intentions. This section, I believe, really addresses the key to the poster's question. Now this is a gray area, which has a few points. You have to answer whether the expectations were set ahead of time, but if they were, the next question is how proactive has the boy been about communication. Another question is how much has been asked about the boy's Intentions? It's not required, but this sounds like what is going on. Maybe now is the time to really spend some time and get to the bottom of this? In considering the third test, it is appropriate for units to set reasonable expectations for attendance and participation. Then it is simple: Those who meet them are active. But those who do not must be given the opportunity to qualify under the third-test alternative above. To do so, they must first offer an acceptable explanation. Certainly, there are medical, educational, family, and other issues that for practical purposes prevent higher levels of participation. These must be considered. Would the Scout have been more active if he could have been? If so, for purposes of advancement, he is deemed active. This is where I bring up the standard must be universal. If there is no expectation set ahead of time, it seems unreasonable to change it later on. In addition, there really needs to be some thought put into his explanations. If he really did have family obligations, that should be noted. We must also recognize the many worthwhile opportunities beyond Scouting. Taking advantage of these opportunities and participating in them may be used to explain why unit participation falls short. Examples might include involvement in religious activities, school, sports, or clubs that also develop character, citizenship, or personal fitness. The additional learning and growth experiences these provide can reinforce the lessons of Scouting and also give young men the opportunity to put them into practice in a different setting. It is reasonable to accept that competition for a Scouts time will become intense, especially as he grows older and wants to take advantage of positive outside opportunities. This can make full-time dedication to his unit difficult to balance. A fair leader therefore, will seek ways to empower a young man to plan his growth opportunities both within and outside Scouting, and consider them part of the overall positive life experience for which the Boy Scouts of America is a driving force. A board of review can accept an explanation if it can be reasonably sure there have been sufficient influences in the Scouts life that he is meeting our aims and can be awarded the rank regardless of his current or most recent level of activity in Scouting. The board members must satisfy themselves that he presents himself, and behaves, according to the expectations of the rank for which he is a candidate. Simply put: Is he the sort of person who, based on present behavior, will contribute to the Boy Scouts of Americas mission? Note that it may be more difficult, though not impossible, for a younger member to pass through the third-test alternative than for one more experienced in our lessons. Just reiterating what has been said for before - this is a board of review question, it should take into consideration outside factors, and it has more to do with the development of the scout, rather than his showing up to meetings.

News flash: single issue parties don't work in our system.