RichardB

Swooping in to say - really? http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx is the direct link to the most current version of the GTSS. There are a couple of updates in process. Should be published any day now. Let these statements found in the preface be the expectations...... All participants in official Scouting activities should become familiar with the Guide to Safe Scouting and be aware of state or local government regulations that supersede Boy Scouts of America policies and guidelines. The Guide to Safe Scouting provides an overview of Scouting policies and procedures rather than comprehensive, standalone documentation. For some items, the policy statements are complete. Unit leaders are expected to review the additional reference material cited prior to conducting such activities. In situations not specifically covered in this guide, activity planners should evaluate the risk or potential risk of harm, and respond with action plans based on common sense, community standards, the Boy Scout motto, and safety policies and practices commonly prescribed for the activity by experienced providers and practitioners.

When does a unit have to complete a tour and activity plan - it can be added to by local councils and by design includes high risk activities.....(not sure how this could be more simple) Q. When do I need to complete a tour and activity plan? A. Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following: Trips of 500 miles or more; or Trips outside of council borders (exception: not to your council-owned property); or Trips to Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, Philmont Scout Ranch, Summit Bechtel Reserve (you will be asked to present a copy of your tour and activity plan upon arrival),national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or a regionally sponsored event; or When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.); or At a council's request (Contact your local council for additional guidelines or regulations concerning tour and activity plans; many have set guidelines for events or activities within council boundaries such as for Cub Scout overnight camping.)

No one says you have to use the BSA consent form (many units or councils publish their own, specifically designed for their state or normal operations). As an adult, don't you want permission to take that youth on whatever tour or activity you plan to do as a unit right? Perhaps you have a different system your chartered organization already uses for other programs, that would work as well. The goal isn't to fill out a form, the goal is to make sure that parents are aware of the kind of activities their youth will be participating in..." Hard to do with a one time / once a year lets cover everything note.....Let me say again, the goal is not to fill out a form...... And if you read through the information on the medical record (FAQ's or Instructions) the four reasons BSA uses them are spelled out....Again, nothing in there about the goal being to fill out a form.....

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/04/10/ask-the-expert-the-who-when-and-why-of-scout-permission-slips/ Very Similar to OP question.

To the original post, the Cub Scout Camping program does not involve den camping by Tigers, Wolves or Bears. Those dens would be able to camp either at council organized family camps or as part of a Pack Overnighter. Even then, the Pack Overnighter is only conducted at council approved locations by design. Others have pointed you to the Guide to Safe Scouting, if you review that link you will also find links to the Tour and Activity Plan, while it may not be mandated, it is certainly a good idea to review the material like the Guide to Safe Scouting, Age Appropriate Activities, and Sweet 16 of BSA safety as a starter along with those online E-Learning courses available to you at myscouting.org. (Youth Protection, Weather Hazards, Safe Swim Defense, etc.). I would suggest you may wish to discuss this further at Cub Scout Roundtables, with your unit commissioners and others who may have some great tips and can guide you to what the Cub Scout program is and is not. And of course, you need to discuss this with your unit leadership and chartered organization. If they are fine with taking on the responsibility for programs outside of scouting, nothing to stop that, it just isn't an official scouting activity. Another way to look at breaking your assumption in the Original Post is this.....as there is no program involving tiger den camping, there is no guidance, or training or support for it......

Well, I'm still around.....So first, lets start with the source info: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/ahmr.aspx Always start here - the attempt is one source, as simple as possible. Everything goes back to the source. You will also find on the youth application: Health information. Please fill out the Annual Health and Medical Record, No. 680-001, found on http://www.scouting.org/forms and give it to the unit leader. So, you should have from joining a Part A and B for every youth. They should be available for all activities, this would include at meetings, your excursion to the park, weekend campouts etc. Figure out what is the easiest way to manage this for your unit. The FAQ's on the link above have some tips. All participants - going to do this by example, not sure how to make the language more clear: Your Webelos Den is visiting a Troop for a campout. All participants would include youth, the leaders and parents on that campout. Your Pack is doing an overnighter. All participants is everyone along for the overnighter. Your Troop is going on a campout, All participants is everyone on the campout - youth, leaders, parents that come along to help. Direct contact leaders, your cubmaster, den leaders, SM, ASM, etc. who are at meetings, go to camp etc. should also have one on file at all times. NOT just for camp. Now the Why: Four key reasons below, if you need to educate and inform why we have AHMR's. Q. Why does the BSA require all participants to have an Annual Health and Medical Record? A. The AHMR serves many purposes. Completing a health history promotes health awareness, collects necessary data, and provides medical professionals critical information needed to treat a patient in the event of an illness or injury. It also provides emergency contact information. Poor health and/or lack of awareness of risk factors have led to disabling injuries, illnesses, and even fatalities. Because we care about our participants’ health and safety, the Boy Scouts of America has produced and required the use of standardized health and medical information since at least the 1930s. The medical record is used to prepare for high-adventure activities and increased physical activity. In some cases, it is used to review participants’ readiness for gatherings like the national Scout jamboree and other specialized activities. Because many states regulate the camping industry, this Annual Health and Medical Record also serves as a tool that enables councils to operate day and resident camps and adhere to state and BSA requirements. The Boy Scouts of America Annual Health and Medical Record provides a standardized mechanism that can be used by members in all 50 states

Safe Swim Defense has been around for around ~ 80 years in some form......the concept is pretty simple (8 steps) and would apply as OP states water over knee deep. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss02.aspx#d Being in Hawaii, hard to imagine that the pack couldn't plan for this, got lots of water to learn to swim in, test in, and have fun in. Suggest contacting your council aquatics committee to sort out the best way to facilitate the event.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/programupdates.aspx Source to debunk whatever you heard at a "preso"

So what don't you understand about not digitizing the information? Pretty clear that now is not the time to do this, and we do explain it in some detail in the livestream video found on the AHMR landing page. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/ahmr.aspx

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety.aspx Would suggest review of the Guide to Safe Scouting, particularly a re-written medical section and a couple of new mid-level risk assessment tools / checklists in the appendix. The home page has a newsletter for summer 2014 but the link may have issues at the moment. Also a new save the date for next Feb for those who would like to progress your councils ERM and join us at SeaBase. Finally, there are still scholarships available for ERM committee members to join us at PTC this August. Richard

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss06.aspx "Operate and maintain chemical-fueled equipment according to the manufacturer’s instructions and in facilities or areas only where and when permitted." is pretty much the "national" policy on the OP issue. Going to have to go back to the source, and to my knowledge there are not any current publications that reference that in production by the BSA. Find one let me know.

Something from the news a couple days ago that is making its rounds in camping circles. Not agreeing or disagreeing with the content. Just an example of the reaction from something that seems so, well ordinary to someone who was the homeroom dad and official hotdog cook at most school outdoor activities. http://snacksafely.com/2014/03/the-holiday-hill-incident-takeaways-for-your-childs-school/

Take a look at the first resource on this page: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Guidelines_Policies.aspx Guidelines for Managing Food Allergies http://www.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/2013Guidelines_Managing_Food_Allergies.pdf

Possibly it is the updated infomation in the shooting sports manual. Please review the update list, the consolodation of this into the actual manual is a work in progress but do not know what the timeline is. In the interium you may need to look at both. http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/ShootingSports.aspx Has both source documents. It may also be ballistas vs. catapults that was conveyed at your RT, but don't know exactly what was said. Yours in Scouting, Richard

Not sure I understand what a pencil pusher is since I typically type or use a Pentel Energel .7 mm ball these days. I really used to love my Pentel .3 mm mechanical pencil though. I also have one of my Dad's and Uncle's drafting sets from the late 50's. Now those were some well built mechanical pencils back then but you still had to sharpen the lead..... Is the real issue here "rules" and their real or percieved applicability or is it just pointing back to the fact that the Boy Scout program is for male youth of a certain age, doing certain things. Again, what is being asked by the OP is a good question, one that that has been asked, answered and supported with reference material. If you disagree feel free to work on a change to the program, that would be scoutlike. Cannot agree that there are always simple and practical solutions with those who profess to be delivering one program and providing something different. Complicates matters.

Here is how the FAQ on the subject is worded. Source page: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/gen_faq.aspx And yes, it directly quotes the GTSS. However, to the OP, would you think differently if you had a wolf age or even a 16 yr old daughter? Would you bring her along?......Neither situation is part of the Boy Scout Program, it is just not scouting. There are some specific family oriented events by design - like Day Camp tot lots or PTC where family programming is included. This would not be one of those. Q. Can a leader bring his or her younger children on a troop campout? A. The Camping section of the Guide to Safe Scouting states: “If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.â€Â

Please discuss with your reasoning as to why you came to the conclusion you did. Thanks, Richard

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss02.aspx#i is the current version of safety afloat which covers this situation as well as other aquatics activities. Please note that finishing this during a council / district run event on flat not flowing water is the way to do this as an offiical scouting activity. There are not den or unit aquatics in cub scouts. I'd like to point out to those on the list that are taking a less than conservative approach to this that the thought of loosing a house is notthing to the thought of loosing a kid or participant. Please contact your councils aquatics committee for local guideance and assistance in having this young man achieve the Aquanaut.

The camp in question should be the best source for their emergency procedure and a discussion about what kind of warnings are available. If a safe structure is a 5 min walk away and you can get a decent approach warning then that 5 min. walk would be a good idea. I would suggest that your cars may actually be the alternative not considered for lightning if you walk thru a parking lot to get to the structure. You should also review the material in the GTSS: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx#g Links to NOAA can be found there. Note that there are several techniques to minimize but not eliminate the risk included. Finally, if you have cell service most of the major carriers have activiated emergency alerts, your phone can now be a source of info / warnings. You may have to make sure your carrier has pushed upgrades, for example: AT&T just added the capability to the iPhones within the last month or so.

Did you actually read the The BSA’s Commitment to Safety? Please enlighten me and teh forum as to what part of it does not work for you or in this case is a joke and funny?

So king, I see in another thread your plan as mentioned above and I quote: "...Next time we encounter a thunderstorm we will settle under a fly with a stack of Near Miss Reports and a count how close each lightning strike was. "Oo ohh, that one was even closer!, scribble , scribble". What is your mail stop at national ?..." would not have been a good plan or work out so well. Also in that particular thread there is a call for or reference to incident reporting. Are you all still so sure that having factual data from those involved in incidents is a waste of time or would you think that maybe it is important (although a lagging indicator) to know what went on. I really do want to know why there is push back on incident reporting. If you all actually read the guidelines published there is NO requirement for a near miss to be reported for a unit. There are near miss reporting requirements for some programs administered by councils. For the record, my mailstop is It is SUM 202. However, your unit is charted by your local council. NOT the national council. Reports go there. As to motives please remember that "...Parents who entrust Scout leaders with their children justifiably expect them to return uninjured..." Does anyone here have a problem with that?

You folks really crack me up. I'm not sure knowing what happens quailfies as Prissy. I've know Prissy as my FIL's dog. Lots of assumptions expressed. Hoping that there are few here who have the ability to think a little outside your sandbox and imagine the possibilities. Look at the reason that knowing about incidents and yes, near misses might be important to an organization who is truely committed to the health and safety of youth. It has nothing to do with lawyers or insurance. It is the right thing to do. Read this http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/HealthandSafety/SafetyThoughts/130205.aspx try and understand. Repeat as necessary. On a serious note I hope the king will never have to make a call about the one did not miss or the person not coming home. Google may enlighten you to the probability you will make a call. And once again, please don't assume.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss14.aspx So why is it bad to know what actually happens in the program? http://www.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-033.pdf Leaders may also want to use this: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-017_fillable.pdf

You sure, I know the answer that was given. Pretty darn straight. As is the current published requirements. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx#e Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416_Insert_Web.pdf has recently clarified that knives are age appropriate for bears and above. Richard