resqman

The term "Whistle blower" suggests he is somehow the first person who knew of the problem, or that it was some sort of secret. He isn't, and it isn't. Ok, whistle blower is too strong a term. How about Responsible Consumer expecting he receive the goods for which he paid? What I was showing was the proportionate importance or seriousness of the two problems and how the office staff has fortunately chosen to be far less condemning in their words and actions with dluders then dluders (and others) have chosen to be with them. Two separate issues not related. I expect a specific level of response when I pay for a service. I pay dues to BSA and they stated they would maintain a database of training records. I dont care if it is difficult, or time consuming, or full of problems. They said they would perform that task and they have not. I should expect them to meet their own stated objectives. Maybe I can overlook a simple mistake once or twice but not 5 times and particularly when they have had almost a decade to resolve the problem. Volunteers should be encouraged to perform to their very best and to follow the rules set forth for the task. If the volunteer cannot meet the goals of the organization, then the organization should provide additional training, redirect the volunteer to a position better suited to the volunteers strengths, or ask the volunteer to find another organization that needs help. If dluders is as bad as you say he and his unit are, then the local office should be investigating the unit. They should be holding him and the other unit leaders to specific standards. Hey, the sounds just like what we should be doing for the local office, holding them to specific standards.

One does not need to be perfect to be competent wouldn't you agree resqman? Agreed There are plenty of things that are done by the council office and by the National office that they do just fine. It is unfortunate that you and a few others see this one computer glitch to be enough to post online that they are incompetent. My point to dluders was that in the grand scheme of scouting which is a more important task? If a computer program that is not functioning properly is enough to throw around the claim of incompetence then what word describes the management of a unit that loses over 50% of its membership in just a few short years? And Yet!!! has any office staff in dluders council posting claims of incompetence against the leaders of the unit he serves? This one computer glitch that has been ongoing for 8 years shows that the IT staff for BSA are incompetent. It shows that management is incompetent because they have not applied enough resources to repair this problem. Could it be that no one has complained with enough vigor to help them understand the problem? If a computer program that is not functioning properly is enough to throw around the claim of incompetence then what word describes the management of a unit that loses over 50% of its membership in just a few short years? And Yet!!! has any office staff in dluders council posting claims of incompetence against the leaders of the unit he serves? I'll bet not. Why do you suppose that is? Misdirection again! The whistle blower is bad therefore his argument must be failed. Does not matter if the whistle blower is good, bad or otherwise, the problem is still a problem. I never said the situation wasn't frustrating; it just seems obvious that a few folks are not coping with the situation in an appropriate or proportionate manner. Appropriate and proportionate in your value judgment. Some of the battles you have decided to adamantly champion on this website seem very trivial matters to me. I sometimes deemed your responses inappropriate or out of proportion to those problems. And yet instead of demeaning you, you were allowed to have your various rants. Bob Whites way is the only way. If this is how he and others react to a very minor and easily dealt with situation then how can they possibly deal effectively with things that really matter, like the failure of a unit to attract or retain youth. Once again, misdirection. Regardless of how good or bad a unit leader the whistle blower is does not change the validity of the argument.

"First I am not saying pass the buck. I am saying that if you are have a problem do more than just complain about." But you are saying pass the buck. It is not the fault of the local office because they are simply typists. It is not really the fault of national, they simply have a database that is complicated. It is a complicated database so we should expect it to be faulty, not just once but most of the time. Phaft! Databases can be complicated to set up initially but to maintain them is relatively easy. You back them up periodically. You build in data checking and error checking. You periodically send the data to the end users for confirmation. You dont lose data. "First, have good priorities and be able to tell big problems from little ones. Certainly as someone trained in rescue you must understand that. You need to know what issues are important and what ones are not. To make as big a deal out of such a minor issue is silly." Ah, minor issue to whom? If my unit cannot re-charter because all my leaders have non-existent or incorrect training records on file, then it is not a minor issue. If I am spending my 1 hour a week convincing BSA that all the leaders are trained, I dont have that hour to spend with the scouts. I am prioritizing my time to work the big problems. I want to spend time with my unit and less time cleaning up someone elses mess. "Second, React appropriately and proportionately. Since the problem is not with the councils data entry but with the software at National, and considering the PD's open and honest letter explaining the situation, I don't think you can call Dluders behavior appropriate or proportional." I believe he is reacting proportionately. If they had lost his records once, not a big deal. If it was only his records, then there is probably a duplicate record or some other minor bookkeeping error. When they lose all the records for all adults 5 times out of 8, it IS a big deal. He has overlooked their incompetence numerous times with minor grumbling. You have to stop accepting complete incompetence at some point. I believe he has waited long enough. "Thirdly, Be helpful, with people who are trying to help you. Remember that until fairly recently this responsibility was the individuals not the council's or national. They do not have to do this. This is being done as much as a service to us as it is a benefit to the BSA. So let's work together on this. The bugs will get worked out. It is not as if it has not gotten better, or that it is the same problem every time. This is a very elaborate data base that draws from and feeds into other data bases, and sometimes the communication fizzles." But it is the same problem every time. They have lost his training records 5 times. Yes, they do have to do this. They took on the responsibility of maintaining a database. The very concept of a database is data that can be retrieved in a reliable manner. I have 25 years of IT experience managing Fortune 500 database systems. My employers expected the data to be there and it to be reliable. If not, then significant amounts of money were at stake. He was helpful 5 times already. Now it is time for BSA to be helpful and stop losing records by correcting the system. "Finally don't make things worse. Refusing to send a couple of dates so that they can try and fix the problem with your own record is immature. Dluders may not be a part of the problem but that doesnt mean he should irritate the problem further." He is not being immature. He is being responsible. The only leverage against the incompetence is to call upon management to fix the problem by raising a big stink. The bigger stink he makes, the more obvious it is that they are incompetent. Someone will be embarrassed enough to actually do their job right and fix the problem. "If dluders really needs his once of blood from the office staff over this then he should go for it, and he should be very grateful that no one in return will ever come from the council office for their pound of flesh over the much larger problems in the unit he leads." Excellent misdirection! Because the whistle blower is not perfect, we do not need to listen to him. Even if Dluders is the absolute worst unit leader in the world, he still has a valid argument that BSA is doing a very poor job of maintaining records and since BSA agreed to take on the task of tracking records, they should do a better job. (This message has been edited by resqman)

BobWhite, I am so happy that you know about all the inner workings of council and national. Nice of you to stand up for the local office and explain how YOU view it as not their fault. YOU are missing the point. As a volunteer I don't care about internal workings of the system. It should be invisible to the end user, the customer. If the local office cannot resolve an ongoing problem in 8 years, then way too many things are broken. My job as a customer of BSA is to let them know when they are doing things wrong so they can improve. The face of BSA national is the local office. If I can make it painful enough for the local office, then they will push that pain up the chain to national. If national gets enough pain, then they fix things. You keep harping about the minor amount of time involved for each and every volunteer to maintain thier own training records and continually ignore the failings of BSA national. It is not about the time, it is about the inability for BSA to performs its job in a compentent manner. What is the point of BSA keeping records if they don't really keep records? If they can't track training, why would I rely on them to keep valid records of anything, like scout awards and achievments? Why would I trust them to actually perform background checks? Why would I bother to submit a tour permit since they would just loose it anyway? The local office IS national. You want the customer to learn and understand all about the internal organizationl chart for every part of the buisness. That is riduculous. If my car is failing, I don't bypass the local dealership and call up the CEO of Ford. I deal with the local dealership. It is the responsibility of the local dealership to service the customer. If they can't provide adequate service because the internal company stuff doesn't work, they have to bear the brunt of that. I don't care that an engineer in Detroit designed a bad part, or that the assembley line worker just tightened what he was told to. I want my car to work. Part of the job of the local dealership is to take the heat for internal company failings. Stop passing the buck and make the people paid to deal with customer do their job. If the tools they need to perform their job are broken, then it becomes their job to make sure that their company fixes the problem.

If I go to a retail establishment and the clerk does something wrong, I complain to management. I usually allow a mistake once. But if the store continues to make the same mistake repeatedly, then I complain to store management. I am paying for them to provide a service. They need to know they are not meeting my needs and need to take steps to resolve the problems. As a volunteer, the local office is the face of BSA National. If something is repeatedly wrong, they need to be held accountable. They in this case, is the local office. As a customer I don't know or care if the problem is a local issue or a national problem. It is wrong and it needs fixing. If enough customers complain, then the word goes up the chain. It is not my job as a customer to figure out the internal workings of the vendor/supplier. It is their job to resolve thier internal problems. If BSA can't keep track of my training records, then I lose faith in their system. Why bother to file my records with them if they are just going to ask for them again and again and again... It is not a time thing, it is a responsibiltiy thing. I pay dues for them to keep track of records. I am a paying customer. If they are not doing what I pay for, then they should be hassled until it becomes important for them to do their job.

We have 55-60 registered scouts in the troop. Typical campout 30-35 scouts attend. 4-5 scouts to a vehicle, and we need lots of drivers. We also have lots of registered ASM and troop committee members. We have at least two ASMs for each patrol. We have a few ASM's that are really parents that drive periodically but are not activily involved in the day to day operations. They have uniforms and have completed most if not all of the training but choose or cannot be active on a regular basis. All the active ASMs are fulled trained for thier position. Occasionally we have parents who will shuttle scouts to and fro and stay the weekend. The adults eat and camp as a patrol. The parent is a guest of the adult patrol and generally sits in a chair and drinks coffee. They are encouraged to participate in the hike or activity as a set of eyes looking for safety issues. They are allowed to speak with their sons but do not sleep, eat, or otherwise get involved in patrol activities. We encourage the guests to get oversee patrols other than thier sons to limit too much "helping". Generally the only time we have a request by parents to attend is just after the Webeloes join. The new parents are not yet comfortable with the idea of leaving little Johnny in the hands of probably well meaning but unknown adults in tan uniforms. New parents must pass through Parent Orientation which consists of 6-8 hours of how BSA and the troop works. Training and experience of the leaders is emphasized. But for those used to Cub Scouts with lots of parental involvement, it is a change.

We sent our kids off to "sleep away camp" at age 8 for a week. The camp is only 20 minute drive away but to an 8 year old, it might as well have been the moon. We have several families we hung around with. All four or five families sent their kids to the same camp the same week. We had "parents camp". We went to dinner, drinking, comedy clubs, stayed out late, and generally acted like childless care free adults. With no worries of baby sitters, we tried to make up for all the lost opportunites during the rest of the year. Now as an ASM, I attend camp to watch over other peoples kids. As mentioned else where, the kids get along fine. The parents seem to be nervous nellies. We have someone send an email to the parents of the troop 2 or 3 times a week highlighting how much fun everything is and how no one is injured. Some of the first year scouts tend to get a little homesick on Tuesday evening. We have an adult sit and talk with them to get their mind off missing Mom and Dad. Then we give them a chemical light stick to hang in their tent as a night light. The troop discourages anyone from visiting at all ever. If they weren't homesick before, the will get homesick if mom and dad show up. This summer we had a Mom come to camp for the week and take BSA Lifeguard. She was busy at the pool all day, every day. Her first year son got to see her at morning and evening meal and when he could sneak time in the evenings. Thursday afternoon she dislocated her shoulder during lifeguarding and went to the hospital. He was in the first year program so we did not tell him until she returned from the hospital in an arm sling. Dad showed up a few hours later. The boy got homesick and wanted to go home. Dad said his minivan was full and there was no room. The boy had a meltdown after they left. We had one of the adults engage him in conversation about nothing at all. Then we got him involved in useless activities. The boy stayed and completed the week.

"I have been a Boy Scout leader for oodles of years, am Scoutmaster trained, etc. " "Why are the Girl Scouts so anal about all the training... the CPR/First Aid, and Outdoor Education/Troop Camp Leadership?" Huh? First you state that you have completed Boy Scout training. Then you complain about Girl Scout training. I am confused. Both programs have training programs to train the adult leaders so they will be prepared to run a safe and educational program for the boys/girls. BSA has BALOO, WOL, OLTS. Three classes on outdoor skills. Except they are different. BALOO is all the paperwork to run a Pack campout. WOL is how to teach Webelos all the available pins. OLTS is how to teach T-1st class skills to Boy Scouts. Of course if you are a trained Scoutmaster then you also have taken Youth Protection, and Position Specific training. What a surprise, both programs only accept their own training courses and do not recognize the other organization. Why? Because they are different programs. Each program wants the leaders to be knowledgeable about the national method of running the program. If you took the Girl Scout training then hopefully you discovered the programs are VERY different. The organization, the goals, the methods, almost every part. "And why do they think this training should expire every 1-3 years respectively anyway? I see the need to update CPR or 1st Aid at certain intervals, but why in the world would Troop Camp Leadership/Outdoor Education and the High Adventure Outdoor Training expire in 3 years? That seems silly to me! " And yet BSA Youth Protection, Climb on Safely, Safety Afloat, Health & Safety expire every 2 years but that is not silly?

I was a Boy Scout as a boy. Took all the first aid required for all the various ranks and badges at the time. Later I joined an Explorer Post that specialized in first aid. I took a 40 hour advanced first aid course, CPR, CPR Instructor. Thought I knew stuff. But everytime someone got injured, I did not know what to do. Later I joined the fire department. Thought I knew first aid. Went on calls and found myself feeling helpless when around injured people. Took an EMT course. Was an active member of an ambulance service for about a year. That was over a decade ago. I still remember standing around wanting to help but feeling unsure of what do to before I took EMT. Take WFA. You will lose your fear of injuries, blood, and gore. You will learn what is major and what is minor. Knowing that almost everything is minor helps you to look at injuries with an inner calm. You will learn things like all head wounds bleed a lot. I mean a whole lot. Usually it is a just a minor cut that a bandaid would fix anywhere else on the body. Taking WFA you will learn stuff like that. Instead of panicing when a camper injuries themselve and wringing your hands while waiting for the camp nurse, you can calmly take charge of the situation, reassure the other campers, and begin basic treatment. Yes, you need to take the course even if you never have to use it. You will develop more self worth and be a better person. Take the course.

Do your Scout Parents really know....everything that is required for their sons to have a program? The troop has provided the parents the information. We require all new parents to attend 4 parent orientation sessions lasting 1.5 hrs each. I don't believe they fully comprehend what they heard but at least the information is provided in both a 3 ring binder and a verbal presentation. Is your committee fully staffed? Are they trained? I believe all the positions are staffed although the current Training coordinator is changing to an active ASM role so that slot is currently open. Do you have enough Assistant Scoutmasters? At last Monday's ASM planning meeting we had 1 SM stepping down to become an ASM and 1 ASM taking over the SM role and 12 additional ASM's in attendance. We had the CC and a second committee rep. At least 3 in attendance have completed woodbadge. At least 3 are working their ticket items now. 2 additional ASM's were not in attendance. All ASM's had all their training complete except 2 who were taking IOLS this month. Our goal is two ASM advisors for each patrol. Ideally the advisor does not have a son in the patrol he advises. We were in need of two more ASMs to meet our goal. Is there enough parental involvement for outings? There is enough trained adult leadership. Typically we have bewteen 4-6 trained leaders at an event. We usually need several parents to drive to and fro the events. The committee usually overbooks drivers and we typically release one or two unneeded drivers once we load the vehicles. If so, how did you get it to be that way? Heavy training the first 4 meetings after they join the troop. Ongoing flow of information to the parents via the weekly troop newsletter email. If not, have you communicated your needs? Do you know what your needs are? I believe the adult leadership has a good grasp on the troop's needs. Due to work schedules, not every resource is always available. We have enough depth that the big things get accomplished. Am I working with what most of you are or is my situation significantly better or worse than the norm? I believe it is a culture thing. Every troop has its own culture or habital way of doing things. Parents and kids are drawn to troops that fit their own percieved style. I went looking for a troop with an active program and deep leadership. I went looking for a troop of at least 35-45 active boys. I wanted a program that did not revolve around a single person to be successful. Our troop encourages adults to take training. The troop pays the full cost of all adult training. Training opportunities are posted on the troop newsletter that goes out weekly. When adults agree to taken on a uniformed role in the troop it is explained it is expected they will complete all the necessary training for thier position. We discussed running our own IOLS class just to ensure every adult had the training. At the ASM meeting this week, we felt understaffed with only 14 active ASMs. We currently have 45 active scouts and are expecting 15-20 Webelos to join in the next week. We know of at least one adult who is expected to join as an active ASM. We are hoping to garner at least 1 but hopefully more like 2 or 3 ASMs from the rising Webelos. We believe it takes a year of being a secondary ASM to become familiar enough with the running of the troop to become a fully contributing ASM. You have to remember that your two or three most experienced will probably leave every year as thier sons age out and so replacements must be put into the system every year. The same is true for the committee.

Of course with the new switchback pants, the internal belt makes it not possible to wear the beltloops. Of course you can always wear an external belt. But the internal belt is sewn in so you are wearing two belts. Unless you snipe the threads keeping the internal belt in place. I earned a handful of skills awards in the 1970's. At the time I equated them to mini-merit badges or merit badge Lite. I still have a few in the back of the drawer.

I disagree about "doing it for the wrong reasons". It may be the wrong reason to start doing it, but the journey is the same. Those outside of BSA, and many within, only know about Eagle and believe the point of scouting is to earn Eagle. There are many in scouting who believe rank and badges are the reason for scouting. Through the process of completeing the various requirments, one begins to learn that there is more than just badges. In order to earn the rank of Eagle, the canidate will have to perform tasks that will mold the canidate. Community service, religious studies, earning Citizenship in the XXX, all will have an effect on the canidate. The canidate will have to hold a POR. Several of the POR are elected positions so the canidate has to interact with his troop members to gain their respect to get elected. For the appointed positions, the need for respect and trust is equally important. Yes, the canidate may come to scouting for the wrong reason, but by going through all the requirements, will undergo growth and development and become an Eagle. If the canidate does not grow, then the troop leadership is not performing their job of leading a proper program.

Here we go again. Dress uniform and field uniform. The miliary has two uniforms because the needs for each function are completely different. BSA has one uniform. It has to function as both a dress uniform and a field uniform. As such, it will have its failings when compared to dedicated uniforms. People already whin about the cost of a single uniform. The outcrys to have to pay for two uniforms would never end. And of course, people would incorretly mix and match between the two uniforms and we could have endless discussions about which of the various compontents of the two different uniforms is it OK to mix and match while knowing all along that it is not OK to mix and match. But for "discussion sake" which would be OK to mix and match. Arrgh. We are a fully uniformed troop. The scouts wear the full uniform on the trip to the field. While in the field we require they wear the full uniform (correctly) during flag ceremonies and Scouts Own service. We hike, camp, and do outdoor activities. The scouts usually wear the switchback pants and a troop T-shirt or other scout oriented T-shirt in the field. My son is not one to worry about his personal appearance or how well his clothing will endure the rigors through which he will place it. He has a shiny spot on one knee from sliding. He has a few pills on the switchbacks from constant rubbing. He typically takes off his uniform shirt and wears the same pants from Friday afternoon until pickup on Sunday. Rain, cold, heat, hiking, cooking, horsing around. Same pants. He OWNs two pair and PACKS two pair but does not change during the weekend. At the end of the weekend, we wash them, press them and he wears them Tuesday evening to the meeting. No problems. I personally think the switchback pants are too informal for a dress uniform. But I wear them pressed and try to make them look their best. The uniform shirt is satisfactory for a dress uniform and not bad for a field uniform. The button placket on the front is not reinforced like most shirts so is a sloopy design but functions. The eplets on the shoulders can be bother some when using shoulder straps on a pack but are a nice formal touch. Better for dress, not the greatest for field. Should there be a seperate uniform for dress and field? It would allow each to be better designed for a specific use but I believe it would create more problems than it would solve. Parents would only purchase one uniform or only parts of both. Most boys would not have a full and correct uniform. Should the existing uniform move more towards a field uniform or more towards a dress uniform? I think it currently strikes a good balance. The shirt is more of a dress uniform and allows the pants to be more casual. Both work adequately for the other function. Should your troop adopt a standard outfit for field use? Sure you can but it is not the BSA uniform and could not be worn during other scouting events. See earlier comments about mix and match, missing parts, purchase price of mulitple uniforms, etc.

25 years as computer geek. Data center manager, disaster recovery planner, user support, system adminstrator, etc. 3 years ago I started my own business as a licensed home inspector. Also hold a residential building contractor license. For about 15 years was a volunteer public safety responder. Firefighter for about 1 year. EMT for about 5 years, technical rescue for about 10 years. Technicaal rescue is building collapse, trench, confined space, high/low rope, hazardous materials, and swiftwater rescue. Also member of SAR team as a mantracker.

And if you ask they can include the gold bar with the years your troop has been chartered as part of the 3 numeral single patch.

My sons starting attending week long sleep away camps at age 6-7 years old. YMCA camp with mostly high school and college counselors. Camp nurse and director were "adults". 10-15 campers share a cabin for the week. Eat food in the dining hall. Don't like the food, go hunger. When my 10-11 year old joined the troop, the Troop leadership made it very clear they really wanted all new scouts to attend summer camp. It was the time that the new boys bonded and became a real patrol. They grew up and made some great friends while have much fun. All 14 new boys attended summer camp. Two could not go the week our troop went so went with a neighboring troop. They did not know anyone in the neighboring troop. If the new boys have been on 3 or 4 campouts with the troop leaders and come home safely, it is time for the parents to grow up and let their sons strech a little bit. Most BSA summer camps have onsite medical treatment and typically adults are roaming all over the camp stopping by classes checking on their charges. Staff keep the campers busy. The homesickness hits Tuesday or Wednesday night when they are tired and the new has worn off a bit. Leave a chemical light stick on in the tent, have a private chat with a troop adult and life is good. Todays parents are too protective. Think back to the days when we grew up. You left after breakfast and came home when the street lights came on. You were in the neighborhood but parents did not know exactly where you were. You did not have the cell phone leash. Kids tried out things and grew. Now kids sit in front of the video game and learn no independence or personal inner strength. From what I have seen, it the parents that are afraid, not the scouts. The parents fear transfers to the boys.

Was a den leader for 4 years, Wolf through Webelos II. Never had a formal snack at any meeting. We met at 1830 on weekday evenings. Most times it was tough getting all the tasks done within the 90 minutes. No way we could have given up 15 minutes every meeting to snacking and the accompanying mess and disruption. There were two occasions that the scouts got a snack but not from me. Once my wife was trying out a new recipe prior to serving it for some other function. She made the dessert and offered it to the scouts. The den met at my house and it was easy enough for her to walk in from the kitchen and distribute samples. Once we made box ovens and cooked muffins in the oven. They were given the opportunity to eat their labor. Never had a parent or scout request snack time. I would have allowed snacks to celebrate a birthday but otherwise would have discouraged them.

Below are links to web sites that sell other spoof patches. They may be willing to make your patch with the idea they can sell more to others. http://quartermasterstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Spoof http://www.boyscoutstore.com/store/Scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=81

Ok. Generally speaking I think most who post here would agree that having all leaders or even more leaders trained for their positions would be more gooder. I would guess that we all agree that only ~30% is much lower than would be ideal. What are you proposing?

Activities we had at my son's Cub Scout campouts included: - Map & Compass: Paperplates were stapled to trees around the perimeter of a field. Headings were taken from a start point. Scouts were taught how to take a heading to a specific point (tree with letter A on the plate). Then each den was given a list of headings. They were to track across the field to the paperplate. They were given a list of headings and plot new course. They were to record the letters at each heading. At the end of the course, they unscrambled the letters and spelled a word. Scout, Bear, Wolf, etc. Tigers needed help, older boys did fine. -First Aid: scouts were given basic instruction in bandaging and then tied bandages on buddy - Marshmallow guns. 1/2" PVC pipe was pre-cut into lengths and fittings were provided. Scouts were given a specific number and type of fittings and specific number of pipe lengths. They assembled a gun and then were allowed to shoot mini-marshmallows at a posterboard target. Parts cost $2 per gun. Scouts were allowed to purchase guns because Pack could not afford to purchase for all boys. Parts needed: 2 elbows, 2 T's, 2 End caps, 5 pipes 5" long, 2 pipes 2" long - Build/Assemble nesting box. Wood was precut and sometimes pre-drilled. Den was given all the necessary boards, screws, and nails to assemble a bird house, nesting box, bat house, or project of the day. Small nails and screws were nailed or screwed by scouts to assemble box/house with adult supervision. Sometimes they were hung as a community service project with permission from park service. Other times scouts took home. - Fishing pole casting: Fishing poles with 2-3 oz weights were distributed one to each den. Hola Hoops were placed 25 feet away from each den. Each den member attempted to cast into the hola hoop. - Pick up game of baseball. One bat, one ball, and one glove for catcher. One of the favorite activities. - Den Presentations: A theme was chosen and each den was given a topic at least 3 den meetings before the campout. The scouts developed a 10 minute presentation. At the campout, each den got up in front of the pack and made there presentation. Tigers generally made posters. Older dens brought examples and explained topics. Wolfs and Bears have taught basic knife safety. Displaying sheath knifes, pocket knifes, proper opening, handling, blood circle, etc. Webelos made box ovens and baked cookies. Webelos I made a box oven as part of the demo. Weblos II put cookie dough on a sheet and cooked in the 12 minutes during the box oven making demo and them distributed cookies to audience. - Star gazing: Someone agreed to bring their telescope and allowed scouts to look at constellations and planets visible that night. Often a presentation was made using different balls to show the relative sizes of planets and distance between them. - Matchless fire starting: Scouts were taught how to make sparks using the BSA Hot Spark ($2 at scout store). The dens were provided 0000 steel wool, sisal rope, cotton balls plain and dabbed with vaseline, batteries, dried cattails, and lighter/fat wood. Dens were allowed the opportunity to attempt to start the tinder with the BSA Hot Spark, Gerber Strike Force, Magneisum bar, flint & Steel, batteries and steel wool. Prentations could be made by other dens about fire ring building, fire saftey, types of fire lays (A-frame, Tepee, log cabin, etc), collecting firewood, etc. - Charcoal Chimney making: Get #10 cans free from school cafeteria. Get used hangers free from laundry mat. Bring a few can openers, a few hammers, a 16# nails, a few pliers. Have scouts remove tops and bottoms of cans using can openers. Have scouts use a "Church Key" style can opener to make a row of triangle holes around the rim of one end of the can. (air holes) Have scouts use the hammer and nail and punch a ring of holes about 1" apart all the way around the can about 1-2 inches up from the air holes. (insert an arm sized stick into can, have person sit on stick on top of bench, drive nail through can into stick, pull out nail and do again 1 inch over. Without stick you will flatten can.) Have the boys cut the coat hangers into length 2 inches longer than the width of the can. Scouts thread the coat hanger wire through the holes and bend over the ends with pliers. The wires from a grid inside the can. Poke two holes on the top rim of the can. Use another longer piece of coat hanger to make a bale handle. Stuff couple pages of newpaper under can on the air hole end. Fill the top of the can with charcoal. Light the paper. The paper lights the charcoal. Heat rises and gets the coals ready quickly. Use coals for box oven or dutch oven. - Box oven making: Get boxes, foil, coat hangers, 8x8 foil pans, charcoal, stapler, pliers. Line box with foil. Line box lid with foil. Use stapler to attach foil to box and lid. Cut coat hanger to make lengths of wire. Poke 3-4 wires thorough box about 2/3 way up. This becomes shelf. Make 4 wads of foil and place in botton of box. Put coals in 8x8 foil pans and rest on foil wads. Wads keep charcoal off bottom of box and keep it from burning. Pan allows you to move charcoal in and out of oven. Have scouts cook something. We have baked the fridge cookie dough, Martha White muffins (add 1/2 cup milk, stir, bake 12-14 minutes, makes 6 muffins), and pizza (tortillas, 2 spoons pizza sause, handfull of grated cheese, topping) Once they learn they can bake, they will want to make more things. Brownies make a great snack to pass around the campfire at night. - Knot tying: Lengths of rope were cut and whiped ahead of time. One end of each rope was dyed a color. Boys were taught how to tie the 6 knots in the handbook. Having one end dyed a color make directions easier to give. Use colored electricans tape instead of dye -Tree/Leaf Idenficiation: Scouts were lead around campsite and given basic information about trees. Type of bark, shape of leafs, common uses of tree, etc. Sample leaves were collected and boys make tracings of leaves by placing paper over leaf and rubbing with crayon. - Leatherwork: 8 pack of leather neckercheif slides were purchased from scout store. Roughly $1 per leather slide. 1/4" letter set was purchased from scout store, about $25-$30. Rank logo stamps were purchased at about $3 per rank. Scouts were allowed to stamp the leather. Recommended they put Den #, rank logo, name, and date. They were able to wear the slides within 10 minutes. Makes a great keepsake. Scouts were still wearing years later. - Park Ranger Presentation: We usually camp at state parks. Contact park ranger well in advance. They often offer a 45-60 minute presentation. Great for scouts and parents. As for timing. Wake everyone at 7am. Breakfast until 9am. Raise flag, begin activitieis around 9:30. 45 minutes for each prentation: Two or three activites/presentations in morning. Break for 2-3 hours for lunch and free time. 1:30 start two or three more presentations/activities. Break for evening meal around 4:30. Campfire starts at dusk. Skits, songs, stories during campfire. Pack provides a dutch oven dessert. Dens are encouraged to cook a dutch oven dessert and share with Pack. Lights out and in tents by 10pm at latest. We had 45-55 scouts along with families. The Pack cooked the meal Sat night for everyone. We planned on feeding 125 people. We normally rented a portable grill about 2.5' x 6' and cooked chicken. Once chicken was grilled, it was wiped with BBQ sause. We cooked about 60-70 breasts and 30-40 leg quarters. We would use a turkey fryer and boil about 100 hot dogs. We would use 2 other turkey fryers and boil 100 half ears of frozen corn. We would heat two #10 cans of baked beans on camp stove. Open two #10 of fruit cocktail or sliced peaches. Each person was allowed two meats until all was fed. Then as much as you could eat until all gone.

The Pack we used to belong to charged $45 a year at recharter. About half went to BSA and Boys Life. The remainder went into the general fund. The Pack had a single fund raiser, popcorn. The Pack set goals for all boys to sell $350 which netted the Pack about $110-115 per boy. The Pack built its budget to spend $110-$115 per boy if he participated in all events. Like most, we had some really gung-ho salesman and some really lackluster salesman. The years I was in, we always had several boys sell $1000+. Last year the three top salesmen sold $3000, $1700, and $1500. As a Pack we sold $33,000 netting the Pack about $11,000. That was with 45 boys. Of course not every boy attends all events or earns all the possible badges but that is offset by those who undersell and earn every possible award. The Pack had a surplus of about $5000 which it used to invest in the Pack. It bought a new metal derby track with laser timer and software.

High Adventure is a big Wow factor when seletcing troops. Remember that most HA require the boy to be 13.5 or 14 years old. That means your son will be in the troop for a couple of years before he even thinks about attending a HA. Not every troop can send an entire crew each year to HA. Many troops just send a few boys with the council trip, assuming your council sponsors a HA trip. On the other hand, my troop rotates over a 3 year period. Each year they try to send a crew to Philmont, Northern Tier, or Sea Base. The younger scouts expect to attend one or more of the HA bases during their scout career. I am not dismissing HA, but look at the regular program because that is where the scout spends most of his time. Are the events planned so that the scouts have the opportunity to earn advancement? Not every scout will attend every event and therefore will miss the presentation of certain skills. Are the boys actively leading the troop or are they merely carrying out adult orders? How much did they talk about summer camp? Our troop dicusses with visitors that it is vitally important that crossover scouts attend summer camp the first year. It is the first time for many of the boys to ever be away from their parents for an entire week. Our troop generally goes out of council for summer camp. We have only repeated summer camps 1 in 7 years. How does the troop prepare the new scouts to be ready for summer camp? Our troop camps once every month. Outdoor skills and T-1st class skills are presented at patrol meetings and campouts. We hope to get the boys by Feb/March so they can have a couple of campouts under their belt before they leave home for a week. Even so, Wednesday at summer camp is a tough one for many of the first years. Summer camp is about being away from home/parents but it is also about forming a bond with the other scouts in the patrol and troop. Without the parents to fall back on, they have to rely on each other. They have common experiences, spend nights talking in their tents, meeting challenges and having fun as a group. During summer camp, they truely become a patrol. Sure the advancement is good but for the first timers, it is alot about becoming a "Scout". Is the schedule setup in advance? We have the calendar set, meaning we choose the speicfic dates events will ocurr and publish that. Patrols are assigned their 2 or 3 weekends they are responsible for planning. 3-4 months before the weekend the patrol begins choosing an activity/location and follows up until it is ready to go. Updates are announced at monthly PLC meetings and reviewed during patrol meetings. So the troop knows When we are going but not Where we are going until sometimes a month before hand. Scouts are shown the way to plan, but sometimes don't follow thru. A less than stellar weekend reflects on the patrol and the rest of the troop knows who didn't do their jobs. Planing gets better after the less succesful trips. Look around for trained stripes on the adult uniforms. For SM and ASM that means they have attended Youth Protection, Essentials, IOLS, and Scoutmaster specific. If you are not seeing the trained stripes, then either they don't wear them or they are not trained. At our new parent orientation, it was announced that a troop our size (40-50) should have at least 3 Woodbadge trained leaders. If the troop leadership feels adults should attend Woodbadge, then that shows a commitment to ongoing training. Yes, our troop pays for all adult training. This most recent Woodbadge, the course director was from our troop committee. If the leaders are not attending training, then the program may may not be following the correct path. Uniforming. Lot of discussion about uniforming of which most is about size, fit, finish, quality, suitability, etc. The general consenus is that a troop that is fully uniformed, is usually more likely to be following the program. Those troops that are partial uniform, tend to be partially doing everything else as well.

We live and scout in a neighborhood where most parents are college graduates and most boys are expected to attend at a minimun 4 years of college. We have boys who try to get away with not doing homework or just being lazy but typically the parents I deal with do not allow that for long. The leaders in my troop regularly hold skills checks and we expect the scouts to actually perform the skill. If not, they get tested again. I think part of the teenage shock is that up until that time, Mom & Dad provided everything. Starting around the teenage years, parents tend to encourage/force teens to pay for their own entertainment, fuel & insurance for the car, the brand name vs. generic clothes, etc. Teenagers often are under the wrong impression that the world owes them all the niceities and perks. It can be a rude awakening when they find out they actually have to work and think and do on their own. We live in Raleigh North Carolina, home of Research Triangle Park. Most of the jobs in this area are technology (IT) or medical research related. Most of those jobs require degrees and advanced degrees. People who have multiple degrees understand the cost and the benefit. Thier offspring are expected to be intelligent and motivated. If the offspring are not, then they get speicalized training and attention to make sure they become the best they can be. GED's are unacceptable.

Somehow I managed to live on my own for several years after college but before getting married. Paid the bills, wore clean clothes, fed myself, and picked up around the house. After being married 20 years, we have a division of labor. I don't do it and she complains. ;^) There are a variety of tasks that she takes care of that I just don't see the sense in doing at all, by anyone. She is happier doing them and I am happier ignoring them. And the reverse is true of tasks I accomplish and she blithey igores. Both of us have had to travel as part of our jobs. The kids have become conditioned to live with a single parent for a about a week. They understand priorities change and different rules are overlooked or enforced. With a tween and a teen, they are old enough that they can actually do a number of tasks, albiet usually with frequent reminders. Were either my wife or myself to be out of the picture, the family would be able to muddle along.

We built a false floor in the troop trailer. The gap between the trailer floor and the false floor is the same diminsion at the tarp poles. The space is divided into 4 sections. The poles have been color coded with pieces of tape. All the poles of a certain length and color go into one section. You can pull out the poles for tarp A or tarp B. That way all the tarp poles are accessbile without unloading the entire trailer.