RememberSchiff

Today, I attended Scout Sunday at our CO, a Protestant Church, with two dozen scouts from my unit. Some of our scouts who attended are not Christian and coincidentally none of our scouts are members of that Church. But there we were, all willingly participating in the Sunday program though some were non-believers in Jesus. One Muslim scout read part of the service and a Jewish scout another. The Church welcomed all of us to participate in their program today as we felt comfortable. No one said to a scout well you are "this" so you can't do "that" or be a part of our program. There was no religious auditing. This seemed to me, the is the way it should be. I think we should remove the religion standard from scouts but keep it for the adult scout leaders. Specifically on the the Boy Scout Application, the DRP should be removed and there would be an asterisk next to "duty to God*" and "be reverent*". There would no religion standard applied to youngsters, as they are still forming their religious beliefs or may be simply following family direction. What would the asterisk footnote say? Well, we could follow document tradition and forget to place the explanatory footnote (that's a joke). Maybe the footnote *according to family direction? The Adult Application would remain unchanged. I think this change would welcome some boys who want to join but who have been prohibited. I do not see the BSA program being negatively impacted. Adult leader requirements remain the same.

I remember similar arguments against allowing women to be scoutmasters. I stand for the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution and pledged allegiance long before I said the Scout Oath and Law. Let's discuss John's proposal. This topic will be heavy on my mind at Scout Sunday tomorrow. A point about Marines...I was not a Marine nor do I know any personally, but whenever I have asked for their help with scouts, I always get a "will do". No can't do, won't try. "Will do". I would like to see Scouting adopt that attitude.

Well the family decided to be atheists and the BSA decided to ban atheists from membership and then there was the troop policy of Scout Sunday attendance. I wasn't part of any of those decisions. Look at the Boy Scout Application that I handed them, page 1 "As a Boy Scout, I will meet the obligations of living the Scout Oath or Promise"... in the right margin is the Scout Oath and Promise. sign __________________ From their perspective, they walked away. From my perspective, I followed the BSA and troop policy and turned them away. Yeah, I thought then and still do that their son would have been a great scout and natural leader.(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

"Who gave you the impression that being in one organization would automatically qualify someone to be in the other?" His father. It was his impression that a young man who joined the Marines should have been allowed to join scouts. So you don't agree. Thank his son for the privilege.

Sorry I was unclear. They did not believe in God. I mentioned other units but he wanted to join his buddies in my unit. His buddies were a bunch of devils, Christian though. Another aspect, for me anyway, I think 11-18 year old is too young to apply a religion standard. The boy likely follows his parents.

They were honest, hard-working people. For that family, belief in God was not a part of their life nor would they "bluff" it for the sake of appearances as some do. They had no problem with others believing or not. Their son would not attend Scout Sunday or be reverent,...I said that was contrary to the Scout Oath and Law and troop policy (Scout Sunday) so I had to turn them away. I remember the dad lecturing me on freedom of religion. Well that's the USA not the BSA. Good people. His son would have been a great SPL.

Agree with GW. I also tell my scouts "that your word is your honor", consider your words carefully and be true to them.

No hops_scout. Today, we are reaching fewer families with the Boy Scout program. Less than half as many as when I was as a scout. And ironically, I am turning away great families because they have no religious affiliation or interest. What can you say to a dad who years later says "My son served two tours as a Marine in Iraq but he wasn't good enough for the Boy Scouts?". Something is wrong, his son would have been great scout. What do you think the chances are that this Marine's newborn son will be a scout? 0.

We are bringing the BSA program to fewer families. Now we can ignore that fact and make up excuses, say what a shame we sold off another camp, lost another troop, consolidated another council... that's the way it is, its sports, its video games, its the internet...there is no problem where I'm at. Or we can can try to turn it around. Look at what others have done successfully and unsuccessfully. Why did Canada have a membership downturn but the United Kingdom an upturn? What are our competitors doing right (hint: after school program at the school - parents really like that plus ease and flexibility in participating)? Consider ideas that are new and old. Stay the course? I worry that my grandchildren will only be able to participate in Scouting as an online course from their MyScouting account, as camps will be gone, liability insurance too high, volunteers too few.

Good observations. Contact other councils, see if they still have it in their library. They may be willing to sell it to you. Google AV-02V013 and track down the hits.

Call your council office and ask. I needed to create a unit history for a pack website but past members had scattered. Called council and they pulled out a folder for my unit with first charter, list of past cubmasters, date first chartered, etc. I was lucky that my unit was in the same council from day one, if your council has merged it might be harder obtaining info. Hope this helps.

BW: Thanks I stand corrected, for 2006, 2.8 million members (down 2.4% from 2005) with 1.19 million adults (down 1.5% from 2005) BSA membership 1960: 5,160,958 1967: 6,058,508 1968: 6,247,160 (late sixties) 1969: 6,183,086 Pappy: Thanks for link. I read it and found myself wanting more info. For example, in my limited experience with the mentioned groups, I have found a frequent misconception that a boy could not join scouting if he did not have health insurance. (This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

Regarding communications and the people who are "in charge of changes", whom should we write at Irving to express what changes, if any, we believe will strengthen the program for the next 100 years. Maybe we can get the membership back over 6 million again, like it was in the late 60's when I was a scout and US population was a less crowded 203 million. and look at our competition... 2007 - Boy's & Girls Club 4.6 million youth, secular, coed, no discrimination, even have their annual Tax Return Form 990 on line and a readable financial statement! 2007 - 4H, 6.5 million members, coed, secular, value-based Yeah 2.5 million BSA members (counting adults), stay the course?

Both the proposed Balkan Scouts of America and the current BSA still have the same flaw - any family cannot join any unit, not even become a Lone Scout. I believe that any family should be allowed to join any unit and participate in the scout program - no discrimination. I don't equate "values" with religion, though it can be a source. I agree that the BSA should spin off the religion unit as it is not a core competency and it would enable the BSA to reach more families.

So "us" and "them"... I guess I'm with "them" and "them" gets Philmont. "Us" can have Irving and all the contents. Some units are "blue" and other units "red" as the program and CO dictates vary so much. I have turned away great families from my "red" unit and directed them to "blue" units. Sent about a dozen secular families over the past five years to a Reform Jewish synagogue unit but only a few joined. I am haunted by the boys who ask "Why can't I be with my friends?" I wince whenever someone says "Scouting is for the boys". Whose boys? The BSA has turned away or turned-off some great people, and the BSA is less for it. We need leaders that unite us in the common values we share, not divide us. Or was Lincoln wrong?

National offers guidelines but Council sets the policies, sometimes with an overly strict interpretation of those guidelines. Here's the updated link, look it over. http://www.scouting.org/webmasters/faq/guidelines/index.html 1. On your district website, just mention usscouts.org but do not provide a hyperlink http://usscouts.org/ See if that technicality passes. 2. You want a link on your Council website to your District website, less Council starts getting ideas. Be grateful that your Council have not taken over your District website yet. My council did this last year as is alluded in the guidelines "For marketing purposes, a council may wish to set up separate Web sites for its districts, camp facilities, OA lodge, or specific divisions/committees/etc". In five years, I predict all district websites will be hosted and controlled by their respective council, for better or for worse. Information control ... Also note these link restriction guideline trickles to unit websites: "Councils that wish to provide links to unit Web sites have an opportunity to require units to comply with this advice by granting a link only to units that meet these conditions (and any other the council wishes to apply) ... however, even in those cases, the council cannot compel a unit to comply by any means other than withholding such a link."

There once was a boy who was a vegetarian and a girl who was vegan. They were drawn to the fellowship of the famous feast, but were turned away. "You must eat the beast to join our feast." "But sir, we must be true to our beliefs and ourselves, can we not contribute our food and join in your feast? We have more in common than you know and much to give." "You must eat the beast to join our feast. That is the our way, the all-knowing way, now be on your way." The boy and girl wandered away from the table of good people and became lost and confused. The years passed and the feast filled fewer chairs at the table. So off the good people went to invite their new neighbors. "Won't you join our feast?" The vegan and vegetarian stood smiling with their son and daughter, "Must we still eat the beast?" "Of course, all must eat the beast to join our feast." "No thank you, but you are welcome at our feast whether you eat veggies or not." "At a feast, everyone must eat the beast." "Not at our feast, everyone may join who seeks fellowship, no matter what they eat or even if they eat at all. Won't you visit our table at least." "Outrageous, that is no feast, everyone must eat the beast!" And the good people walked away and the new neighbors closed their door. Both groups had much to give, but neither sat at the other's table. One group grew, the other whithered.

Scouter Firekat, on behalf of scouts and scouters who follow the Scout Oath and Law, I want to apologize for the poor judgment and un-scoutlike behavior that you recently experienced. As you have reminded us, hurtful language is not part of the scout program and I wish I could tell that the need for such apologies are rare or becoming more rare. They are not. Thank you for standing up and upholding the higher scout standard. (This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

Good topic. I only get TWO wishes, I will consider my choices further. But John's choices are certainly worthy and I offer this feedback. Cooking Merit Badge - FIGHT OBESITY and consider special diets (something along these lines). Make it 22nd mb or drop Communications as previously mentioned. Expand requirement 2 to cover OBESITY and the need for special diets. Plan a month's "special diet" for either of the following: 1. Weight management a. Visit your doctor or a nutrition specialist. Determine what your ideal weight should be and design a diet to reach your ideal weight. Talk about effects of junk food and lack of exercise b. Prepare a menu plan for a month (or longer?) to reach your weight goals. c. Prepare an exercise plan. d. Keep a weight and BMI chart for that month OR 2. Special Diet - same idea as above but the focus is on special diet restrictions/needs Also add info on using a meat thermometer. Adult School of Outdoors? That's a broad topic area. Do you want adults to hunt and skin rabbits as my uncles did? Catch, clean, and fry fish (watch the mercury)? Paddle a canoe , row a boat? Know wilderness first aid? Basic hiking? Outdoor Leadership school? Campfire grill? Or just SC and FC skills (OLS?) Anyway, I think you need further specification.

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Thanks for the feedback, especially those notes from raisinemright and local1400.

Can't make everyone happy? No easy solution? I don't want to give you an answer. This is a good leadership exercise for you and your scouts; it is excellent that you are sharing the exercise with them. A leader uses good judgment to make good decisions to achieve group success. What is success for your troop and how do you get there? Asking advice is good whether you are a new leader or an experienced one, but you make the decision. You'll do fine.

http://www.stadriemblems.com/scoutstock.html Look on the left margin menu and select Cub Scouts, Webelo, whatever. I have used them for patches. Sorry that I got side-tracked with legal and levity.

"We have a Ford in the White House and no gas" - Bob Hope "It is easy to find President Ford on a golf course, just follow the wounded" - Bob Hope "the man who made golf a contact sport." "You all know Jerry Ford -- the most dangerous driver since Ben Hur. Ford is easy to spot on the course. He drives the cart with the red cross painted on top. Whenever I play with him, I usually try to make it a foursome -- the President, myself, a paramedic and a faith healer. One of my most prized possession is the Purple Heart I received for all the golf I've played with him. "Whenever I play with Ford these days I carry 13 clubs and a white flag. I try to win only enough from him to pay my extra insurance premiums." - Bob Hope President Gerald Ford was the only President to have earned Eagle Scout. Bob Hope was awarded the Silver Buffalo Award. Both enjoyed each other's company, jokes included, particularly on the golf course.

"This is a Catholic Cub Scout pack/den, so something religion-based would be fine." You mean like exorcism? Unfortunately Sister Anita wielding a ruler would not be allowed ... but I seem to remember it working on me. Yes, we expect good scout behavior from all scouts, without exception. The "reward" is the privilege of being a scout. The traffic light is too lenient for this group, I would make it harder. First infraction, timeout on bench. Next call parents for pickup. You need some reinforcements - no nonsense non-den adults. Before your next meeting, have meeting with Cubmaster and Pack Committee. Invite, no subpoena, your Cubmaster, Committee members and maybe your former den chief's (your older son's) Scoutmaster to attend your next den meeting to talk about the Scout Oath and following the rules. That Scoutmaster should be interested as to why your son dropped a leadership position. With that help. Develop a new strategy to get your scouts back in the program. That new strategy might include - more adult leaders present. - remove ringleaders - restrictions to Pack activities, e.g. cannot attend picnic unless they "green lighted" at past 4 den meetings. - splitting den - shorter meetings - adding more den chiefs - require uniform inspections as a discipline tool - more sports, they are a high activity bunch - develop a Pack Code of Conduct. Punching another scout means the scout leaves activity. He and his parents has a talk with Cubmaster and CC before he is allowed, if at all, back in the den. (This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)