RememberSchiff

Well good thing the Eagle service project is a scout activity, otherwise YP, a BSA policy, would not apply.

Not my rules, I cited examples of councils that require local tour permits for Eagle Scout service projects. No one was talking about other scout activities you mentioned - OA or Jamboree. Sounds like you are advising Eagle candidates in those councils to ignore their council rules as they work on their Eagle projects.

As eagle90 mentioned, some councils do require local tour permit for parts of an Eagle service project. Some reasons include documenting that youth protection guidelines are being followed or as a service tracking log as councils did before the National Good Turn website started. Here's one: http://wm.ppbsa.org/Advancement/Eagle_Scout_Elements.pdf " Funding b. Fund raising projects require a tour permit, detailed plan and an approved BSA fund raising permit." " ADULT INVOVEMENT: a. BSA policy requires 2 adults (Youth Protection Trained) to be present at any BSA activity." Here's another http://www.monvalleyboyscouts.org/upldDocuments/ Unit461/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20Eagle%20Scout%20 Project%20Guidelines%20for%20Scouts.pdf "If you are transporting Scouts make file a Local Tour Permit." Here's another http://www.frenchcreek-bsa.org/wtd/advancement/ life_to_eagle/project_safety.pdf Reminds Eagle candidates that the Sweet 16 Safety points including #12 Permits applies to all activities. http://www.pioneeringprojects.org/resources/ebooks/ LeaderTrainingConference.pdf Eagle Project Q & A "IS A TOUR PERMIT REQUIRED? Yes. A tour permit is required any time a Scout activity takes place outside the normal meeting location" Local scout council set local tour permit policies.

NO BSA documents explicitly state that a scout cannot wear his uniform during his Eagle Scout project. There is also no rule explicitly stating that a scout can only wear his uniform at a scout activity. And there is no official policy explicitly stating that an Eagle Scout service project is not a scout activity. If those did exist, then the sources would have been produced by now. These unique interpretations of policy for Eagle service project remains an opinion and is not a fact supported by official documents or policy practices. Eagle candidates may wear their uniform during their Eagle Scout project as they have done in the past. We cannot add our own advancement requirements. My advice, if a purported policy, rule, guideline seems not quite right, ask that person, "Show me where it is written." If they cannot, then it is only their opinion.

Amazing how complicated Cub Scout camping is. We used to camp in our backyards by ourselves as our first Cub Scout campout - no can do today. There are "temporary guardians" which can be established by the biological parents, or child custodian, or legal guardian, or court to "temporarily" assume the duties same for specific purposes and/or time period. A common example in medical forms, scout leaders are assigned temporary guardianship for the purpose of seeking and receiving emergency medical care for a scout. A babysitter would be another example. We had one Cub share a tent with his grandfather, another with his uncle, both had written consent of the respective Cub's mother (single mom) - temporary guardianship for camping trip. Worked well, all had fun though grandpa shook the trees at night with his snoring. Now to add to the silliness, both Wolf scouts had attended resident camp the summer before with the Pack but without parent or guardian (perfectly BSA legal). The rule says "When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian." It does not explicitly say legal guardian. I am a stickler for safety, but these rules and guidelines (often thought to be all rules) produce an atmosphere where some third party always comes up with a "reason" why we cannot enjoy an activity in scouting - why a scout should not go out. Might skip Cub Scouting for my youngest and just take him camping with old dad, I think we both will have more fun. 'I can bring my squirt gun dad?' No problem.

Ironically at these courses, you should be taught that before an activity, an outdoor activity leader should ask or have a copy of your medical form and provide to you an equipment list or reference an existing one, say 'Use equipment list on page 224 of Scout handbook' as you might want to bring a water bottle and sleeping bag. Before departure, the outdoor leader reviews medical form (would be nice to know of any food allergies before ordering food) and often checks a new person's equipment. My unit only takes Class A uniforms if the campout is a district camporee or scout summer camp, as there is other clothing more functional for outdoor activity.

I offer this conspiracy theory The policy originally said something to the effect. 'While a Life Scout plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to a religious organization, school, or your community. < The project should benefit an organization other than the BSA >.' But that was too clear so it was changed to allow for misinterpretation. "The Eagle Scout service project provides the opportunity for the Eagle Scout Candidate to demonstrate his leadership skills that he has learned in Scouting. < He does the project outside the sphere of Scouting. >" So "does the project outside the sphere of Scouting" just means a Scout can't build a brick outhouse at Scout camp but he can build one at town hall. No more no less.

Teach scouts to swim. Too many Cub Scout waterfronts have become Camp Splash - alot of fun but scouts end the week no better swimmers or should I say nonswimmers than when they arrived. One camp that I attend had two dozen kickboards (used to teach leg strokes) and never used them. No swim instruction was attempted.

OGE, Yes in my troop, scouts are recruited to help with Eagle projects, in fact, I have yet to see any non-scouts at any of our project. Attendance is taken at activity; hours recorded in Troopmaster towards their Star or Life service requirements, troop hours credited on national Good Turn website. Publicity photos taken and submitted to local paper. The other intended benefit for these younger scouts is to learn how-to plan and organize an Eagle project. No small coincidence, that those scouts volunteering are likely future Eagles. Sure seems like a scout activity to me. Eagle candidate wears Class A except during the physical labor when all, depending on weather, wear Class B. This however, is not required; Scouts have found this works the best and is practical. No complaints from scouts, CO, Council. My $0.02 - I teach my scouts to follow the Scout Oath and Law everyday, to act as scouts always whether they are wearing the uniform or not. This concept of "outside the sphere of scouting" drives me nuts. If you want the BSA, Council, and the insurance carrier to not be liable then so state - require an insurance waiver for participants and tell them 'as always if any of your scouts are hurt or killed the BSA will disavow any knowledge...Good luck Jim'. But don't try to sell this nonsense that an Eagle Scout service project approved by SM, Troop Committee, District Eagle Board with scout manpower is "outside the sphere of scouting". Now suppose an Eagle candidate came up for his EBOR and it was public knowledge that he had committed some foolish act - involved in a cheating scandal at school, set a brush fire with fireworks,...and this is questioned by reviewers. His response, "Sir, that occurred outside the sphere of scouting." Oh right, okay next question ...I don't think so.

reducing National executive and legal staff or compensation, cutback paper and paperwork (imagine if we adult leaders filled out that multi-sheet adult leader application ONCE to National instead of filling out a new application whenever we change or add a leadership position or change units or councils),... I will pay a premium to buy an American made product. I will not buy an American flag or a "Boy Scouts Of America" shirt or handbook not manufactured by Americans. According to my local Scout Shop, scout office and rank patches are no longer American made - great.

"Shouldn't we be building a culture in our Troops that community service is something the Scouts ought to do rather than something they have to do for rank " It used to be this way - "Do a good turn daily" was expected and there were no service project requirements or hours minimums for ranks (except Eagle), let alone a web site to tally hours and brag about it. Scouts were expected to show Scout Spirit by serving others either by themselves or participating in patrol and troop service projects. I am trying to correct this mentality at the patrol level by having patrols work on the National Honor Patrol Award. Hopefully scouts will start thinking about this - seeing needs themselves and stepping in to help without a thought given to award or recognition like that unknown British scout who helped that American businessman in the London fog? You're right.

Okay thanks Kudu and GW for your responses. I will give this shirt a try for summer camp.

A question about the Action Shirt or new Official Shirt... I would not sew any patches on a breathable shirt as it would block the "breathing". Will the Uniform guidelines reflect this? Good to hear, that neckerchiefs will be worn correctly over the collar.

Our unit's committee meeting is open to all. Scouts will sometimes attend to present service project proposals, lobby for an activity, or seek troop sponsorship for Philmont or Jamboree. Our SPL has not attended nor is he required; he is busy enough with troop meetings and PLC. A planned agenda is sent out a week in advance of troop committee meeting. Anyone can add a topic by contacting CC or attempt to address that topic at the end of meeting before time expires. We all want to get through the agenda in the alloted meeting time. And to no surprise, agenda topics mostly align with program activities and needs. Like a town meeting, our committee meeting is sometimes poorly attended, political, long, imperfect, but always open. Meeting minutes are e-mailed the following week. My unit is lucky to have experienced adults with open minds who want to deliver a great scouting program. If someone became a problem at this meeting or any other troop activity, then it would become a personnel issue. Personnel issues are handled separately by COR, CC, SM, and those involved. Call this the executive board if you like. Common personnel issues include discipline problems and lack of participation in fundraising. Keep it simple.

This note should be on the form * Examinations conducted by licensed health-care practitioners other than physicians will be recognized for BSA purposes in those states where such practitioners may perform physical examinations within their legally prescribed scope of practice. My state also allows NP (Nurse Practitioners) and PA (Physician Assitants) to do physical exams, but not RN's. Your state may be different.

Here's what I remember from Scouting in the 60's. Adult Training: Here's the handbook, read it. Few courses if any, I know neither my SM or mother (a den mother) took any courses nor did they request any. Adults were WW2 veterans and lived through the Depression so tended to be resourceful and creative with few dollars. They had experience and willingness - no need for today's MBA conceptualizing, acronym, org chart nonsense. Make or make do, no online shopping at Campmor or Capelas. Good stuff cheap at Army-Navy stores, e.g., I.Goldbergs in Philly. Troop budgets were small, no need for BIG fundraisers. Paperwork: SM had a one page record for each scout. Mrs. SM went to council with a shopping list and bought the awards. Council kept it's own records with a part time staff of 3 and the scout had to keep his merit badge cards for potential Eagle application. Today what a database hassle! Do any scouts keep their mb award cards? Adult leader footprint: SMALL. For a troop of 25, we had a SM, ASM, and 3 or 4 adults on Troop Committee. On campouts, we had at most 2 adults. No adult patrol. Adults ate what we cooked, but like now adults did not trust scouts to make coffee. Today, my unit could have 8 to 12 adults along plus siblings - that's not scouting to me. But today get with the program, scouting is a "family experience". I stay home more now. Year program: Wasn't planned in advance by Troop Committee and scouts made it up as the year went along. District planned camporees and Klondike Derby, Troop Committee planned scout week dinner; ASM would plan summer camp. Scouts were expected to plan hikes, campouts, museum trips, etc. Philmont was The Scout Ranch - the only high adventure camp available, unlike today with Northern Tier, Maine, Sea Base,... Activities: Planned and lead by scouts ASPL and APL usually planned activities and then the SPL and PL's lead the activities. Adults just handled the driving. No adult activity coordinator. Klondike: stations were run by senior scouts, today stations and their challenges are handled by adults. Philmont: In '69, my patrol had 8 scouts and 1 adult leader. That was the ratio 1 adult to patrol. If something happened to that adult, a Philmont ranger would replace him. I'm amazed that crews have 3 or 4 adults. If something happened back then, I would send two scouts to bring help, because that's what a PL does. That was then. Today, adults have taken over the program both in sheer number and control. I agree it is contributing to the decline that started in the 70's. The data is there - membership, activity attendance, and length of time as scout are declining. Either something is wrong with the program or fewer families want this program. We really need a Bill Hillcourt now. The common response I get is "Bill who?"

packsaddle's comment has me wondering when do questions become too personal, that they cannot be asked at BOR or a scout can decline to answer? For example, when I was a DL, I found the Cub Scouts "family achievements" - family tree, go on a family outing, family finances, family responsibilities caused stress for two of my scouts. I learned later those families were separating/divorcing. Wish I had that to do over, I would have skipped those achievements, saved those two families the stress. I think physical disabilities, religion, moral beliefs are other areas that one might consider too personal. At a EBOR, if a question was asked that a scout felt was "personal" would he be within his BSA rights(?) to respond, "Under Youth Protection guidelines, I feel that question is too personal to discuss with a stranger (a scout may not know anyone on Board), and I respectfully decline to answer."?

What I have seen over many years is that boys want to be with their friends and if they cannot be with their friends then they either do not join scouting or do not stay in scouting beyond the first year. Someday, I hope Scouting will stand behind its own diversity position and make it a charter requirement so that any boy will be permitted to join any troop. And I hope it will be done for the right reasons and not as a reaction to declining membership. "In Support of Diversity We hope that our supporters will continue to value the Boy Scouts of America's respect for diversity and the positive impact Scouting has on young people's lives."

GW Yes, I remember my SM calling my church priest to check on my Catechism class attendance, usher service, etc. and similarly my school principal too. It came under the "Scout Spirit" section of rank requirements. Included in that section, a scout had to "satisfy" his Scout Leaders that he did his best in everyday life including "do your share in helping in your home, your school, your church or synagogue, and your community". Had better advancement quality control in the 60's. Scout leaders focused more on the intent of the rank requirements than the legal interpretation of the requirement. So for the requirement "take a hike',YOU planned the hike, YOU prepared for the hike, YOU got the map...there was no just show up at an adult planned 5 mile hike in troop program according to FCFY. Tenderfoot Charlie Brown had to learn to plan his own hike. Today, there would be screams "That is in violation, you cannot add requirements." Just seems logical that if you are going to "take a hike", then you first have to plan and prepare, even if that is not explicitly stated in the requirement. A lost Scout value - scouts planning their own hikes and campouts. Back then, We busied ourselves on "Scoutcraft" with the goal of mastering the skill or accomplishing the task not meeting a deadline. You only worked on one rank at a time, so the analogy of being on a trail was accurate - you did steps in sequence towards a goal. Membership numbers were much higher too in the 60's! So giving away badges is not reversing the membership decline.

Lisabob??? Kudu's comment, made me recall an incident where a new WBer was upset that I was showing scouts how to mark a trail for others to follow - an old Second Class skill... much older than that actually. I thought it was funny and as I recall he was the one being nasty. Sometimes a humorous observation is just a humorous observation.

"There is nothing that enrages Wood Badgers more than traditional outdoor skills like semaphore!" Add to that "trail marking" where we placed stones or sticks in certain patterns to give trail directions. 'My Gawd. Leave No Trace put those rocks back.' Too funny, but true. "Stalking" is another one, but I'm too PC aware to even mention it, dang I guess I shouldn't have said that.

Maybe this, "Spring" craft project. I went to a local greenhouse and bought a flat of flower plants (I forgot the variety, but I told the owner that I wanted a Cub Scout tolerant plant, so I guess it wasn't an Inpatient). Had my Wolves pot the plants. You could add a sign "Easter Bunny leave basket here." Playing with dirt, what fun. And if they transplant the plant outside have them add an earthworm with the plant. They love to see the worm burrow into the soil. You can dig for worms (also fun) or buy (trout) bait worms. A worm race might be warranted, as a slow worm will just end up being breakfast for the early bird. Hope this helps, have fun.

"In Support of Diversity We hope that our supporters will continue to value the Boy Scouts of America's respect for diversity and the positive impact Scouting has on young people's lives." http://www.scouting.org/Media/Positions.aspx

DYB-Mike I was referring to the Old Wood Badge. Most WBer's were "lifers" in the scouting program. And that was the point, this acknowledged this group of knowledgeable, experienced Scoutmasters who made a long commitment to working with scouts as the best of the best. So yes prestige, sort of Eagle Scout for Scoutmasters, very different from the Wood Badge today, which I think should use a different name to prevent confusion. Anyway, more was expected from WBers but they were already known for giving beyond those expectations both at the troop and district levels and that was the original concern expressed in this thread - a lack of commitment. But you had to be voted in to be considered and some (my scoutmaster included) complained that perpetuated a "Good Ole Boys" Club". Probably true, but those selected certainly were committed to helping scouts. My scoutmaster served for over twenty years and was never voted in. Maybe because he was too good at poker at Camporee Crackerbarrels or because he did not take the troop to summer camp...He was very disappointed, but admitted not everyone makes Eagle. So from your perspective, you think 10 years is a "considerable length of time"? Hah, for a Scouter no, now if we were talking about water heaters. Anyway a little bit of scout history. Thanks for your service to scouting but remember your family comes first, meaning preserve and cherish your separate family life. At your stage, I fell into the trap of only seeing and working with my sons at a scout activity where I was already busy with other scouts. Learn from my mistake. An Old WBer told me that and I didn't learn.

LisaBob, thanks to your BOR for maintaining the integrity of the program, hopefully that scout will learn from your feedback and become the scout he should be. I am sorry the situation was not handled earlier by Scoutmaster conferences as it should have been. Whether you call it "Scout Spirit" or behavior or attitude problems, I have seen a variety of such "problems" stopping Scoutmaster Conference signoff for rank advancement. With my scoutmaster conferences for rank, there is no automatic pass. Some colleagues argue that I should advance them anyway "to keep them in the program". Sorry no social promotions. Here are some scouts that I have held back: 1. Mr. Smoozer - tries to charm his way through the program, very animated, very UNprepared, good buck passer, talks the talk but can't walk the walk. 2. Mr. Cool - has the shades, the look, and catchy repartee which rhymes with partee, knows jack. Only troop office he is interested in is being "The Man" and everything else sounds like school - uncool. Uniform is optional. Trustworthy? 3. The Dude - his Scout Law is simply "Whatever", really misunderstands the Patrol Method as just hanging. Inarticulate, bored, whatever. 4. Mr. Resume - selfish, if it is not related to advancement why do it and does the minimum at that. He's on the Eagle Track lookout, gone after ECOH. Annoys me the most - all legal. I'm sure there are many other unscoutlike attitudes. We are here to guide them on the scout trail and sometimes we have to pull them aside and check the trail map. Sounds like your scout was off-trail for quite a spell. Again thanks for caring about the Scout program.