RememberSchiff

shortridge, I think we set ourselves up for failure by asking outsiders for help, they willingly arrive, and then we start auditing - 'er wait we have some forms, need personal information, oh you need to go online and take a test, you will need to set up an online account, you need to take a district training course oh that's offered in the spring, no it doesn't matter if you were a scout...' See ya later. By 3. "MB counselor need NOT be an adult scout leader" - I meant they would not need to fill out the insecure adult application as code 42 with the SS#, DOB, DRP. Anyway, National would not go along with this. By 4. Currently there is NO requirement for two adults at a mb meeting. The thought is 'two deep' protection occurs by the scout buddy system. I don't agree with that thought. It is common in my unit for one or more adults to hang around a mb meeting as they would have to drive back anyway. Two-deep adults is better protection than one MBC taking YP. I believe the examples that John cited all had taken YP, one a former National Program Director had helped develop YP. Prospective volunteer MBC's have asked for an adult leader(s) to be present as they just want to teach and leave the discipline to us. Again, this will not happen either. How do we prevent a bad guy from becoming a MBC, a teacher, a priest, an elected leader? Unless he/she has a criminal record or someone steps forward with damaging credible information, we can't as we have seen. How do you prevent a MBC/SM/.. or unregistered adult from committing a bad act - two or more deep adult presence with eyes and ears open. For the 100th, I would like a 100 'new' MBC's in each council. And I mean 'new' as not otherwise currently connected with scouting. And I want cool people, no turnips. I want people willing to advertise they are MBC's. I want pics, badge info, bios on council website and no more of this secret squirrel nonsense with counselor lists. But to make this happen, the process of becoming a MBC needs to be easier while maintaining youth safety. Another $0.02

Merit badge universities are the perceived solution to the problem of fewer merit badge counselors (MBC). The real solution is get more and better MBC's particularly from outside of scouting. In my experience, it is easy to get outside experts to help with merit badges but difficult to impossible to get them to register. Oh they are interested until they see the paperwork and hassle now required. Many are very concerned about identity theft (good luck getting all that info from a licensed physician). They are also amazed at the absence of professional courtesy - 'I am a licensed plumber/EMT/policeman/teacher why can't I automatically counsel Plumbing/First Aid/Fire Safety/Scholarship'?'Heh I'm willing to teach some metalworking for da boys but I'm not jumping through hoops.' So National could go back to an old simple system. 1. Just a one sheet, double spaced MB application form, signed by a sponsoring adult scout leader. A SM could 'knight' a new MBC on the spot! A council employee is assigned to maintain lists. 2. Registered until they withdraw. (No yearly renewal, which councils seem unable to process anyway) 3. MB counselor need NOT be an adult scout leader, just an upstanding community member will do. (I doubt National will agree to this) 4. YP not required AND an adult scout leader is present for all merit badge meetings. Just like any other outing activity, we don't require outfitters, museum guides, etc. that we work with to take YP. Or here's an approach that I use - an adult scout leader registers as a MBC but acts as a merit badge facilitator of sorts. Scout(s) are interested in say Railroading where there are no MBC, so I register as a Railroading MBC whether I know or care if trains run on tracks. Council is just glad to have a warm body. Next I outsource - get help from local Casey Jones's. I show Casey the requirements and merit badge book and we talk it over. I am there for all meetings, somewhere in the back. When the requirements are complete, I sign the card (Casey can sign too, after all no one at council looks at the signatures anyway ). This is just an approach that I adapted from my earlier Den Leader experiences: find a expert, shield him/her from BSA BS, let expert do his/her thing, scouts learn something/have fun/earned badge. Maybe at Round Table, ASM's can be asked to try this approach for merit badges which have few or no MBC's. I have not participated in a Merit Badge University nor would I. My merit badge courses require more than 2 meetings and I do not want that expectation misunderstood. I also want scout's undivided attention. I think the merit badge system needs some serious repair, the only bright spot for me is that the merit badge pamphlets are FINALLY in color. My $0.02

BSA is the largest youth/youth-serving organization in the US. false, it is one of the largest.

Sea Scouting in Nebraska? How does that work haha? Prairie schooners.

Just use the "contact" webpage to notify the webmaster or whoever at Irving. ...oh, right the National website doesn't have one of those "contact" webpages despite the numerous requests over the years by us, the users, to have that useful and common feature. Here's how the WOSM does it http://www.scout.org/en/about

I found this http://www.scouting.org/faq/volunteer.aspx Must I be a U.S. citizen to join scouting? Citizenship is not required of youth or adult members. That said, I have seen a few CO and units impose some additional membership requirements such as US citizenship.

Yes and No. Yes, if the MB counselor wants to be formally listed as counselor in another council. This way both scouts and their Scoutmasters will readily see that counselor's availability. Some counselors may have a vacation residence or frequent travel in another council. That counselor would have to remember to re-register each year in those neighboring councils too. But there is no need. A scout can go to ANY merit badge counselor who is registered with ANY Council and APPROVED by his SM. Common examples where this occurs is out-of-council summer camps, museums, merit badge colleges, and Jamboree. My $0.02

No, but Without a uniform or what someone declares to be the "proper" uniform, a scout might be turned away from the following: Most troop state their own uniform policies National Jamboree (some councils explicitly require the new Centennial uniform - two sets!) BSA High Adventure Camps Most scout summer camps OA Board of Reviews Another $0.02, (This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

Your Hawk Mountain Council http://www.hmc-bsa.org/training/index.htm appears lacking in training courses. Try Pennsylvania Dutch Council in Lancaster. They offer an Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills course this fall: http://www.padutchbsa.org/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?orgkey=1952&id=58279 There are also online outdoor safety courses such as Hazardous Weather at the National BSA website scouting.org. Taking WFA is an excellent idea. Here are some other outdoor resources in your area. Princeton University Outdoor Action is a great source of "online" outdoor skills information. I say "online" because 1. there is a wealth of free online information and 2. I don't know how much they open their hands-on training to the outside community. http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/training/index.shtml http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/programs/index.shtml Appalachian Mountain Club - Delaware Valley Chapter http://www.amcdv.org/ My $0.02

You might want to attend the New England Scout Memorabila Show at Camp Carpenter in Manchester,NH Oct 23,24 Here's a link to flyer http://nhscouting.org/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?orgkey=1801&id=48047 Enjoy. BTW I have been looking for a red 50th Anniversary of Scouting strip that was sewn above the "Boy Scouts of America" strip above right pocket. I had such a strip when I first joined back then and lost it along the way.

Here's a earlier thread http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=243866&p=1 Not many American Heritage Girl units around here. According to their website, there are just 2 in all of the New England states so we have not seen or heard of any AHG units, so this is a non-issue for us. My $0.02

The new Annual Health and Medical Record Part A form has been changed. Back in July, the Medications section had 6 blocks with each block asking: Medication: Strength: Frequency: Reason for Medication Approximate date Started: Temporary [ ] Permanent [ ] Now the form http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34605_Letter.pdf requires parent and/or doctor approval for each medication????? Medication: Strength: Frequency: Approximate date Started: Reason for Medication Distribution approved by ___________________/_______________________ Parent signature.........MD/DO,NP,or PA signature Temporary [ ] Permanent [ ] Can't remember any notice of this change. I wish they had a mind to make up. My $0.02

Back on topic. I think in Bob Mazzuca's overall performance as our Scout Executive, that he does a adequate job impersonating Babe Ruth. This may be a core skill that he is trying to maintain. My #0.02,

??? I guess I am old school where a term paper or project for one course could not be used for another course. Try it and you failed and likely face academic suspension. You should only get credit once for the work you did so you learn something new in the next course or next year! Not today, where the attitude is how much credit can I get for whatever little I did. Can the neckerchief slide I whittled as a Bear count toward Woodcarving merit badge? Let's see if I take a single ten mile hike - how many places can I get credit for it. Yes, let's teach our scouts to work the system and acheive Eagle with minimum work. Lazy. My $0.02,

shortridge According to the GSS Guidelines, kayaking in flatwater is ok for Webelos but not Cub Scouts so you would be hard pressed to find any Cub Scout camp with kayaks. I don't believe in holding back children who are ready to advance in either academics or sports, doing so creates a bored kid and in this case one who decides not to join or quits Scouting. I agree with hot foot eagle that we are being out-scouted (outdoor adventures) by other groups further the membership of those groups are growing at our expense.

After visiting both camps, my younger son chose 4-H day camp over Cub Scout day camp, because at 4-H he could flatwater kayak as he does with us. He did not have to be a member of 4-H to attend their camp. He also did a low-rope course while there, he fell and cut his leg, bandaged it, and he was back at it. Both my sons do laser and nerf tag as well as go-cart racing, though outside of scouting. They also shoot at a local sportsmen club under a JOAD (archery) and NRA (rifle) programs, again outside of scouting. They also sail (underage for scout sailing). Yes, there are girls participating in these activities, no problem. Unfortunately it seems in the BSA these days, the "adventure" has to wait until they are 14. My older boy waited as he did these adventures outside of scouting - one was a teen trek with AMC. My younger boy wants to keep doing his adventures and so no Cub Scouts for him, maybe 4-H. I tell my disappointed wife that a young Davy Crockett would have been bored in Scouting too. My $0.02 (This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

There have been changes in who was eligible to earn Eagle. For a time, adults could earn Eagle rank and that was changed. Also the rules changed allowing handicapped scouts to earn Eagle. I'd like to see girls earn Eagle, hell I'd like to see some of the Eagles in my District earn Eagle. My $0.02

Selecting a small wish like the neckers is a good, practical thought. I have even smaller wish - register just ONCE as an adult scout leader and not every time you change positions, unit, every year for mb counselor, etc. One year, I filled out that idiotic form 5x! I imagine that complicates the adult leader head count. My $0.02,(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

Horseshoe for Horsemanship, even better. Thanks for the correction. Tooth for Dentistry, I like it. Maybe attach a sound chip on the back of the merit badge with the sound of a dentist drill Brrrrph, brrripp. Hmmm, maybe BSA should add some mini LED's to some mb's. Electronics comes to mind. Traffic Safety too. I too earned the old Marksmanship merit badge - a very cool looking badge. Maybe bring that back for Rifle Shooting and have an exploded clay for Shotgun? I like the hammer and anvil idea for Metalwork. A Shop Manual for Auto Mechanics - yawn. How about a two-tone '57 Chevy with hood open? Doesn't the BSA have connections with NASCAR now, maybe they can suggest a cooler design? Engine sound chip would be cool here. Another $0.01,

Opposite climate and location extreme, solo Eagle Scout hiker in the heat of summer in Grand Canyon, tragic results http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072703242.html Backpacker From Va. Dies in Grand Canyon Washington Post Tuesday, July 28, 2009 Bryce Gillies, a seasoned hiker and McLean High School graduate, had just returned from an overseas development project when he set out by himself this month on a backpacking trip into the Grand Canyon. Gillies, who attended college in Arizona, was drawn to the canyon there because he "loved its magnificence," his father, Randy Gillies, said Monday night. After a month spent building a clinic in Africa, Gillies began the backpacking trip July 18, his 20th birthday. Three days later, he was reported overdue, the National Park Service said. Searchers, led by Park Ranger Anne Petersen, found his body Saturday. Officials had not released a cause of death, but his father said it appeared to be dehydration. Apparently, his father said, a small navigational error was compounded by extreme temperatures. The Park Service said Gillies's car was found at the Bill Hall trail head, half way between the canyon's Tuweep section and a developed area on the park's north rim. After a wide-ranging search turned up personal items, rescuers focused on the Bonita Creek area. Gillies was found about one-half mile from where the creek joins the Colorado River, the Park Service said. Bryce Gillies had carried enough water for the route he planned, his father said. But he said the apparent navigational error kept his son from reaching Thunder River, where he intended to replenish his supply. Randy Gillies said he was told that Bryce tried to save himself by descending toward the floor of the canyon, to reach the water flowing there. As he headed down, the father said, his son descended 20- to 35-foot rock faces without a rope. At that point he found himself at the top of a 100-foot drop that he couldn't negotiate unaided. "Bryce made a heroic effort to rescue himself," the father said. But the predicament might have been insurmountable. At the high temperatures that had set in, the father said, dehydration can occur in as "little as a couple of hours." Randy Gillies thanked searchers for their efforts, and he emphasized the importance of filing a backcountry permit, which he called imperative for any wilderness venture. The father lives in McLean with Gillies's mother, Warna. A brother, Neal, also survives. According to the father, Gillies graduated in 2007 from McLean High and then entered Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff, near the canyon. Gillies, an Eagle Scout, had taken college calculus at George Mason University in high school and was a physics major in college. He had a four-year president's scholarship at the university, which he chose in part for the area's beauty. At Northern Arizona, Gillies, an outdoor enthusiast who had hiked the Appalachian Trail, learned to kayak and to rock climb. He had spent June in Ghana as a project leader with Engineers Without Borders to build a medical clinic, and his father said he looked on such work as a possible career.

Justmescout, I think that troop policy is to prevent the male adult leaders from bringing their mothers or their mothers from bringing them. My advice, think about your outdoors skills and interests and what benefit those could bring to the troop, if you want to be a helicopter parent on trips then end of story. Don't underestimate the value of your enthusiasm to a scouting program. Take some of the basic online training courses. Maybe you'll consider becoming an assistant scoutmaster, merit badge counselor, wilderness first aid expert, or trek coordinator for the troop - somebody that should/needs to go camping with troop. Then talk to the District scouters first and maybe together approach your troop's Charter Organization Rep. Work the problem from the outside and then top down as you will get nowhere in the existing 'This is the way we've always done it' Good Ole Boys Club. Plan B, find another troop. Last I checked there was no glass ceiling outdoors - ceiling unlimited, welcome to Scouting. My $0.02,

Those are good questions. As a parent, I would just observe at the first meeting or two, let my son ask his own questions but mostly I want him to mingle. If my son was still interested in the troop, then I would ask questions drawn from my observations. I would also attend a troop committee meeting. Remember scout programs will differ from troop to troop, none may be 100% what you are looking for AND their program could change with a turnover/aging-out of membership. Not every troop will make a good first impression - attendance may be poor because you visited during flu season! Observe if scouts are excited to be there or eager to leave. Observe who is in charge? Who is giving the orders? Who is leading the meeting and how? Who is giving the announcements? Scouts, Scoutmaster, Troop Committee, or Helicopter Parents. This is important because every troop will say it is boy run but few are. Observe if all scouts are engaged and having fun. Are the scouts friendly and inviting my scout to participate? Observe if the adult leaders are observing or not. You will be entrusting your son in their care. At the Troop Committee meeting, I would ask about troop finances particularly fund-raising. Some troops require all scouts to participate in fund-raising, others allow an opt-out with cash contribution. What are the yearly costs for a family? Ask about attendance requirements and see if that will work with your son's schedule. Ask who plans the program year and ask for a copy of the program calendar. Talk to parents and scouts. Then talk to Scoutmaster. Ask about his/her background and interest in Scouting, what does he consider to be important in scouting, how are emergencies handled, how bullying is handled, ... Avoid troops that boast about the number of Eagles they have, about being a (whatever) Quality unit (meaningless), or say they never cancel an event due to weather. My $0.02

http://www.wmur.com/news/20120862/detail.html Eagle Scout Fights Fine After Rescue 18-Year-Old May Lose Driver's License POSTED: 5:30 pm EDT July 20, 2009 BOSTON -- An Eagle Scout fined by New Hampshire Fish and Game after he was rescued from the White Mountains is fighting back after he was billed for the search. "I don't have the option to pay, and I don't feel like I was negligent," Scott Mason said. Mason, of Halifax, said that he was shocked when he got the letter. He was rescued in April from Mount Washington and is still recovering from nerve damage he suffered to his feet. "Fish and Game sent me a bill for $25,000. That's been very stressful. I have no way to pay. I'm only 18," Mason said. The letter said Mason, an Eagle Scout, was negligent by setting out on an aggressive hike and that he must pay in 30 days or lose his Massachusetts driver's license. He said that he would have been made it out fine if the weather hadn't turned. "I can't control flash flooding," he said. "And if there wasn't flash flooding I would have made it out of there safely." Mason said the findings are based on an incident report complied from one interview he did moments after he was rescued. "It's based on one debriefing that was less than an hour when I was tired and injured," he said. After sending $1,000 to rescuers in appreciation, Mason said he is disappointed New Hampshire Fish and Game did not look at his story closer before sending the bill. "I just wished they had come to me and talked to me so we could work together," he said. He said that he plans to fight the charge. New Hampshire state law allows the Fish and Game Department to charge hikers for a search. The agency said Mason acted negligently and that he was unprepared for the winter hiking conditions. The case was reviewed by the New Hampshire attorney general's office before the bill was sent.

http://www.wickedlocal.com/plympton/news/x631635939/Eagle-Scout-fined-for-Mount-Washington-rescue Eagle Scout fined for Mount Washington rescue Mon Jul 20, 2009 HALIFAX - New Hampshire Fish and Game is fining Scott Mason for the expense of a four-day and three-night search and rescue operation that ended with his rescue off the side of Mount Washington in April. Mason, 18, an Eagle Scout, was hiking the tallest mountain in New England in early April when he injured himself and tried to find a shorter route down the mountain. It took volunteers, professionals and a helicopter from the Maine Department of Conservation four days to find him. According to family and Scout leaders, Mason is an experienced hiker. Joe LaGambina, treasurer of Halifax Scout Troop 39, said he is a skilled outdoorsman, saying in April, This is not something thats foreign to him. Mason was a troop leader and has merit badges for hiking, camping, wilderness survival and first aid, according to Halifax Scout master Tom Goldrick. The amount of the fine is $25,238. Mason had no comment when contacted last Friday regarding the fine. The decision to issue the fine was based on evidence collected by the New Hampshire Fish and Game law enforcement division. They found Mason was negligent in his actions following his injury, and before the injury by planning a 17-mile hike across four peaks in New Hampshires Presidential Range during the spring thaw. The department looked at everything associated with Scott Mason and what happened during the totality of the incident, Maj. Timothy Acerno, assistant chief of law enforcement for New Hampshire Fish and Game, said. The first question that comes to mind for many people is, how can an Eagle Scout be negligent if he survived four days and has experience hiking? Acerno said that question is answered by the departments findings. In our opinion he had an aggressive hiking itinerary, Acerno said. Mason was hiking the Presidential Travers, over mounts Washington, Jefferson, Madison and Adams, a 19-mile group of trails that can take hikers up to four days to complete during the winter. It can be completed in one day by expert hikers. He wasnt hiking in summer conditions or winter conditions, these spring-like conditions are very different. Theres snow, but you cant walk on top of it like you can in the winter. Even though our rescuers were wearing snowshoes, they were up to armpits sometimes. They found tracks in the snow then lost them on bare ground. The conditions were very difficult, Acerno said. Mason had crampons, snow shoes and an ice pick with him, but did not bring overnight gear since he was planning a day hike. He discussed his itinerary with a supervisor at the Pinkham Notch Lodge before setting out. His mother, Jory Mason, called the lodge when she did not hear from her son that night. Acerno said Scott Masons negligence began with his itinerary. After he injured himself, Acerno said Mason made the decision to get off the trail to find a faster way back to the lodge. He was not staying on the trail, Acerno said. Our volunteers ran the trails of his itinerary but he began bushwhacking and navigating through places he should not have during the spring. He took an undesirable route, crossed streams that are swollen in the spring, and tried to make his way out rather than turning around on the trail and hiking out that way. We looked at everything and in the departments opinion he was negligent in totality. The cost of the rescue operation included the cost to the Fish and Game in coordinating the rescue among a variety of organizations, including Mountain Rescue Service, Androscoggin Valley Search and Rescue, Pemigewasset Valley Search and Rescue and the Appalachian Mountain Club. A Maine Forest Service and Vermont National Guard helicopter conducted aerial searches. The department asked the state to institute the fines last year as a way to help fund such searches. Searches were funded solely by a fee added to recreational vehicle and boat registrations. The cost of searches has increased over the years and the department needed a way to continue paying for searches. Last June, the state legislature passed a law to allow the department to fine negligent hikers the cost of their rescue. The state conducts approximately 140 searches annually. Fines could be issued in approximately 40 of those operations. Acerno said fines are normally due within 30 days of notice, or a payment schedule can be negotiated. If the person fails or refuses to pay, the department may pursue payment by legal action, or a compromise could be reached. If they refuse we could take them to court. Mason could appeal the fine in the New Hampshire courts, Acerno said.

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=237308#id_237314 Above thread "Teen Hiker Missing on Mount Washington" referenced the following from Manchester Union Leader, Tue April 28,2009 PINKHAM'S GRANT The search has resumed this morning for the Halifax, Mass., teen who has not been seen since he set out on a 17-mile day hike Saturday over the Presidential Range. Sunny skies and mild temperatures are on tap, which, officials say are beneficial for Scott Mason's ability to survive, but makes for rough going by search teams, which now have to use rope traverses to get across streams swollen and raging by the snow melt. (Some of these rescuers were injured. Who paid their medical expenses?) Fish and Game Lt. Bob Bryant said this morning that a lone set of prints, which could belong to Mason, have been found and followed and the search this morning is concentrating in the Great Gulf Wilderness, a vast 5,552-acre area on the east slopes of Mount Washington. Along with the melting snow, some areas in which search teams are looking have deep soft snow and depending if those spots were wind-loaded over the winter, the snow depths are in excess of 20 feet. A Vermont National Guard helicopter is expected to join the search this morning. (Ran into high winds, it gets windy there. The highest surface wind speed recorded on Earth was 231 mph at Mt. Washington) Mild temperatures on the high slopes of Mount Washington worked against searchers yesterday. More than two dozen searchers spread out across the highest peaks of the Presidential Range yesterday, sweeping ravines and ridge lines for Mason. "Our biggest concern now is that with the snow melting, the streams are just raging," Gralenski said last evening. "The temperatures are a double-edged sword -- the warm weather is causing the snow to melt, making the brook crossings impassable." Several teams were waiting other searchers with ropes to set up a technical traverse of the water as the sun was going down. The search teams, which include Mountain Rescue, Androscoggin Valley Search and Rescue, the Appalachian Mountain Club and the U.S. Forest Service, have to also contend with waist-deep snow in some places. Mason's father, Mike, said his son attained his Eagle Scout badge about six months ago, undertaking a project that secured 3,000 pounds of food for the Massachusetts food bank. He said that his wife, Jory, had been recovering from recent surgery and that he "took the eye off the ball" as his son was preparing for the hike. Scott Mason, a junior at Sacred Heart High School in Kingston, Mass., had visited Colby-Sawyer College and stopped to make the Mount Washington hike following that visit. Scott Mason's planned route would have taken him from Pinkham Notch to the 6,288-foot summit of Mount Washington and north over the peaks of Mounts Jefferson, Adams and Madison, before returning to the AMC base camp via the Madison Gulf trail the same day. "That's a very ambitious hike," Gralenski said. "Regardless of his age, it was a lot to bite to bite off. A 17-year-old can only have so much hiking experience." By early afternoon, teams made up of four searchers each were out on headwall of Tuckerman Ravine, the upper and lower points of the Great Gulf Wilderness and Caps Ridge off Mount Jefferson. Searchers followed any solo foot prints they came across throughout the afternoon, but the weekend saw some 2,500 people climbing up to Tuckerman Ravine, a popular skiing destination in the spring. Gralenski said it appeared that Mason was equipped with snowshoes and an ice ax, but that he left his sleeping bag at the base camp. Mike Mason said he found packaging from a blanket sold at the AMC store, which was encouraging. "He's been in the woods a fair amount," he said. "I just hope he walks out of the woods. I think he can do it. He knows how to survive, and it appears he has a blanket." There was no initial air search of the area, Gralenski said. The New Hampshire Army National Guard, which usually assists with search and rescue missions, was out training in Michigan, he said. The New Hampshire State Police helicopter was grounded for service. Jory Mason made calls to the office of Massachusetts Gov. Duval Patrick to plead for that state to dispatch a helicopter in the search for her son. Just before 6 p.m., a helicopter from the Maine Forestry Service flew in for the first look of the area from the air. ( He was found by ground rescuers and taken to Mount Washington Observatory, Home of the World's Worst Weather, where he transported down New England' tallest mountain by snow cat. More than two dozen highly trained mountain rescuers searching three days some of whom sustained injuries in rope traverses, two out of state helicopters participated in the search, note the Governor of his home state Massachusetts denied his family's request for a Mass State Police copter to join the search. ) shortridge asked "Are you really saying that anything that's not car camping is high adventure?" No I was predicting outsourcing to outfitters for high adventure for reasons of safety, liability coverage, etc., and that scout leaders would continue with car camping. Maybe the distinction will be determined by the new Health Form - if Part B is required along with weight chart compliance for the activity then the activity is high adventure. But this is just my prediction of the future whether I like it or not.(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)