RememberSchiff

Just back from a week of camp. I noticed a variety of different departure times such that the Saturday closing ceremony had about a third of troops that started the week. So when should a week of camp officially end, i.e., all troop pack up,campsite inspected, and troop leaves? I will assume most camps run Sunday through Saturday.

I am becoming skeptical that the public will learn the truth of this matter. I wonder if the Freedom of Information Act can be used to release the Customs videos? Maybe Congress will drop the photo restrictions, which started this incident, as they are silly (Customs posts port of entry videos on Youtube), unnecessary, and unenforceable (smart phones, Google glasses, etc.) My $0.02

Some scouts don't even wear pants. Not to worry, a scout is a scout whether he is wearing the uniform or not, which is optional

According to link below "The agents, Hopper said, had spoken with another one of the four adults chaperoning the Scout trip." Hopper added, "The investigators have been very clear they are only looking at whether Border Patrol drew a gun on the Scouts. They're not going after the Scouts or their leaders." What about the alleged: prison term/$10K fine threat, 4 hour detention (or was that to change a flat tire?), and questioning scouts about packing knives and matches? The issue of SM Fox not giving permission to interview scouts may be that he is just not naming who they are and so the investigators do not know exactly who to interview unless scouts step forward on their own? This is getting more and more odd. http://www.desmoinesregister.com/sto...rded/13450109/

Here's another special person, U.S. Army Maj. Glenn Battschinger In 2010, he started Afghan boy scout Troop 1 with 40 scouts. Today, there are dozens of troops in five eastern Afghanistan provinces, funded with a $100,000 grant secured by Battschinger from the Department of Defense and serving more than 10,000 boys and about 1,500 girls. http://www.people.com/article/afghanistan-boy-scouts-army-hero

I'm puzzled that other adult leaders who were on the trip are not speaking and did not view the video yesterday. SM Fox now has legal representation, John Whitehead of the Rutherford Institute (Virginia). SE Hopper had a reassuring observation "I've been impressed with the investigation and how serious and courteous they have been," Hopper said. "One of the investigators is a scoutmaster back in Seattle. They understand how our organization works. And we both want the truth." http://www.desmoinesregister.com/sto...outs/13395149/

7/30/2014, Updated with USA Today Investigators from Homeland Security met this morning with SM Jim Fox and SE Robert Hopper at Mid-Iowa Council http://www.midiowacouncilbsa.org/ "They said four cameras at the border recorded video of the incident. (SM) Fox told KCCI that after reviewing it, he said for him the video is inconclusive. The investigation is ongoing." According to the USA Today article, SE Hopper after viewing video, said "(video) doesn't match the story that's been presented (by scouts).". "At one point, one of the officers shined a flashlight into one of the vans," Hopper said. "It was after 9 at night, so maybe that was when somebody thought they saw a gun. I don't know." "Hopper said federal investigators would be in town through Friday and had requested to meet with the Scouts who witnessed the incident." http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/30/scout-leader-maintains-agent-pointed-gun-at-boys/13393267/ http://www.kcci.com/news/feds-open-i...ident/27184948

I like the video interview with the scout who was in the park to remove bush honeysuckle. Maybe today's scout needs to know leaf identification of this too? http://www.fox28.com/story/26144728/2014/07/29/boy-scout-finds-marijuana-plants-in-city-park

Not the point, my relatives tend to have the opinion that their scouts, among other youth groups, are their best kids and they protect all their kids. But if this is how you treat our best ...and the emotions take off. Sorry that my wording was not clear. Latest news from KCCI http://www.kcci.com/news/feds-open-i...ident/27184948 "The Office of Inspector General (OIG), Department of Homeland Security, has opened in investigation into the allegations made concerning a July 7 incident along the U.S. –Canadian Border involving Customs and Border Protection (CBP) personnel and members of an Iowa-based Boy Scout troop. The OIG is taking the lead in the investigation, which is being conducted in conjunction with the CBP Office of Internal Affairs." Too bad the Alaska State Troopers are not the lead investigators.

T2Eagle that's a good explanation of the border realities. I will take a stab at realities in Iowa. My relatives in Iowa live outside of the supposed "100 mile Constitution free zone" and hence still live in America proper. They don't understand this "zone" that a Federal judge affirmed. They don't understand how the US border suddenly grew 100 miles wide inward. They also don't understand why American citizens would be so treated (detained for 4 hours) at the entry point to their own country (allegedly) because of pocket knives and matches. You are back in the land of the free and home of the brave and should be welcomed home where your constitutional rights not a gun greet you at the door. And yes, they are livid about an American law enforcement officer (allegedly) pulling a firearm on one of their Boy Scouts at that door. Another $0.02,

Tree Climbing was a Cub Scout rank or arrow elective requirement back in 60's. I think it was for Wolf. I remember climbing a neighbor's tree as high as her roof.

Like nature, outdoor education is somewhat cyclic. Some of the events along that timeline: learning nature, agriculture from the American Indian as we "settled" West, colleges offer degrees in Agriculture, Scouting/4H, recycling for war effort, victory gardens, colleges offer degrees in Forestry/Land management, Earth Day Movement (ecology), recycling for the environment, Outward Bound/NOLS, colleges offer degrees in Environmental Science, community gardens...Last Child in the Woods (1998), colleges offer degrees in outdoor recreation. So periodically, some adults wake up and realize what has been forgotten from the past and re-institute it. LNT is but one example. In recent years, I have found that many local middle and high schools have developed successful outdoor programs. To me it seems ironic, that the schools are offering outdoor programs and the BSA is offering STEM programs, each attempting to fill a void created by the other. Go figure. My $0.02

Update: 7/26/2014 http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/ca...tml?akmobile=o San Diego,CA police are unable to determine if gunshot(s) was intentional or accidental, but believe scout got the unregistered gun in Las Vegas and brought it to San Diego summer camp. Scout was then shot inside his tent while camping on Fiesta Island Monday, June 30. "San Diego police say another boy was in the tent and a third boy was outside when the shooting happened. The investigation has now been handed over to the Las Vegas Police Department." Clark County, Nevada which includes Las Vegas requires handgun registration.

No. I have family in Nebraska and Iowa and we stay in touch.

Over the years, I have had good experiences and bad experiences with law officers. I think the bad experiences are in part due to their forgetting that they are also here to serve the community and yes that also means being a role model 24x7 - a hard job. Allow me to introduce Grand Island, Nebraska police officer Butch Hurst, known as the police officer who never says no to scouts. http://www.theindependent.com/news/l...a4bcf887a.html

"U.S. Customs and Border Protection staff will fly to Iowa to visit with Boy Scout leaders about an incident on the Alaskan border that’s gaining national attention." Lawyer up. Tell the CBP to bring the film and we will supply the popcorn. Also inform them to leave their guns in Alaska and we will leave our pocket knives and matches home. Oh and lawyer up. Even though CBP knows the names of all scouts and adults at the port of entry incident, I'm not sure scouts should attend this meeting. Seek counsel about that. I'm sure their parents will want to attend. http://thegazette.com/subject/news/i...ction-20140725

Who to believe? Which side destroyed photo(s) perhaps relevant to the allegations? What if a scout states the photo he took and that was deleted by CBP was of a gun drawn at the port of entry? May need an independent investigator to sort this out. Who are you going to believe a Boy Scout or the Government? This is getting interesting. http://www.kcci.com/news/sen-grassley-reacts-to-border-incident-with-iowa-boy-scout/27125374#!bk4Cgy I think Mr. Fox needs to defer questions/interviews to a skilled attorney and certainly not speak with CBP unless the interview takes place in his attorney's office. Maybe the same advice for the parents of the 15 year old scout.

Why didn't the Customs border officers have control of the border inspection from the start, e.g., "All those in the vans exit and stand over there with Officer Smith while we check your vehicles." I don't buy the excuse that those with the guns were afraid. BTW, good to see all those videos of Alaska Customs posted by CBP on Youtube.

A little more precise in this followup report - Customs officer at a port of entry, gun drawn and pointed at scout, the $10K fine was nonsense. http://www.kcci.com/news/boy-scout-f...102496#!bkm97i I think the "civics lesson" for scouts is to take legal and legislative action so this does not happen again to any American. I think the ACLU has a related suit about photo taking. Get the Alaskan and Iowan congressional delegations involved.

[quote=Rick_in_CA;n414296 As for taking a picture being illegal, here is what the ACLU says: (would not paste quote -sorry) I don't think it's unreasonable to consider taking a photo falling under the definition of "videotaping or recording anything". That's a good point. Was the official a Border Patrol officer (legal to photo) or Customs officer (port of entry which may be illegal?). Anyway, if either pointed a handgun at a scout, I'm waiting to hear what the infraction or threat to national security warranted that action. So far, neither side is talking (after the initial report) which usually does nothing to correct an errant procedure or educate both sides.

Good lesson about the lost of our freedom in America. I bet Eric Holder thinks the scouts were 100% in the wrong. http://www.kcci.com/news/officer-poi...078396#!bjJ1Xs Hope our Bob Gates wakes up and takes issue.

NJ, I think that is what skeptic is saying and since those days are gone, move on with the now? If I could time transport my sons back to the mediocre scout troop that I was in in 60's, I would do it in a New York minute. We did not camp as much, we hiked more, but both were local. Our gear was army surplus, what we could borrow and occasionally what we could make. We never backpacked as our gear was too heavy, and we had no dutch ovens or iron skillets. Aluminum foil was KING! So why was the program so much better - we scouts lead the troop and that began the ADVENTURE to follow. We trained, planned, and prepared our own outings. I can only remember ONE hike where an adult accompanied us (he wanted to break in his boots). Philmont only required ONE adult accompany us in '69 and that was a disappointment. He was not needed. At 15 or so, our scouts should be ready for solo outdoor experiences as was done then. Philmont went the wrong direction regarding age requirements and adult supervision. The BSA compounded the problem with alternate advancement requirements. Personal Fitness was a tough merit badge for some of us, but everyone who passed met the same minimum requirements (pull-ups, push-ups, running,...) Eagles were physically strong and there was little question of their physical ability for outdoor activities. The Program had CHALLENGE with higher standards. Skill comparisons are skewed by differences in gear and outdoor policies. We made plenty of cathole latrines and dug drainage trenches around tents (no floors). Traditional scout skills like rope/knots, compass/map, knife/ax/WHITTLING, fire-building were stronger. We cooked over wood fire (coated the pan outside with Comet) - no charcoal, no stoves. We did have a Coleman lantern but that was the SM's gizmo. No idiotic adult patrols, one or two adults on campouts and they were our guests. More later... The gear has improved in some ways but now often requires adults to manage. Break a wooden tent pole, make a new one. No stoves to maintain or explosive fuel to store. We could repair our old Baker tents. We made our own waterproof matches. Camporees were about inter-troop patrol competitions, long gone now. but heh look at this new cool gear we got - a generator and a... keeping up with the Jones' oh and the occasional uniform police. Activities were more about teaching and letting scouts test themselves. Today it about entertaining scouts - fireworks, rock concerts, internet,... Scouts were moved along in the program. No one wanted to do the same thing each year. If scouts went to summer camp, they were 11-13, older scouts were either CIT's or counselor. Your participation in the program changed as you got older. Also the program was but a part of a boy's life, a boy learned to prioritize and balance family, school, work, community, scouts. I remember my SM checking report cards at the end of each period. If he was not happy with your grades, he assigned an older scout to tutor at that troop meeting. Troop POR's were not required for advancement. If a scout showed leadership in school, sports, community, or church that was accepted as leadership. In other words, leadership and scout advancement were separate. Did we think we were "roughing it"? Not so much. We were getting away from family (some sad stories there) and learning to live on our own and work together with our peers (patrol method). Mistakes and all, we were growing into men, thanks to being scouts. Yeah Youth Protection, but IMHO we have lost more than we have gained and I would point to the youth membership drop as proof. My $0.02

Some side notes: ' Though Vermont was the first state to pass a bottle law (1953) where a deposit was added for each beverage bottle as an inducement to recycle, the law covered beer, soda, but not water bottles. An expanded water bottle bill is under discussion as well as a repeal of the existing law. Concord, MA bans the sale of plastic water bottles. Like Vermont, Massachusetts bottle law does not cover water botttles either. NH has no bottle law. Yeah, I never understood why people buy $$$ water bottles. When I was a kid, the "water bottle" was a 1-2 quart refillable glass bottle in the fridge. Dad drank straight from the bottle while us kids had to use cups.

Somehow a year ago, I missed reading this article in Scouting magazine http://scoutingmagazine.org/2013/04/pro-fisherman-tom-redington-shares-how-to-hook-scouts-on-fishing/ Here's the boat. Similar to the standard issue boat we receive as SM/ASM's.