RememberSchiff

When I read Judge Pregerson quote, I began to recall some 60's campfire discussions about Vietnam and the draft we would be facing in a few years. The minimum voting age was not yet 18. There are many, more current examples of protest in America. IMO some discussion of peaceful and respectful protest should be part of Citizenship in Nation. Scouts have seen that writing to their representative often results in a canned response. Two of our scouts had the same written response to two different concerns. Our scouts have discussed NFL players taking a knee during National Anthem and whether it is respectful, focused, and the proper venue. Those who play high school football know they will be removed from the team. Some interesting discussions. We also had a discussion of President Trump's visit to Summit. If you attended a that speech and disagreed, do you boo (as scouts at previous Jambo), quietly remain out of respect for the President, quietly leave, or something else. My $0.02,

I was not aware of that. Why not in Citizenship in Nation?

Civil disobedience is not covered, but IMHO it should be.

My point was the crack naturally opens wider because there is a crack. Time is relative.

Agree. I was taken aback by the answer to the last question, "22. The change is happening. How can we encourage other Scouters to embrace it?" If I can paraphrase the answer 'Talk about it and you will come around.' I was expecting an answer such as, Good scouts and scouters may disagree on this issue as they may on any other issue but all of us will follow the Scout Oath and Law.

We know, or think we know, the first Eagle Scout, the 2 millionth Eagle Scout, the 100 millionth Boy Scout but the first Boy Scout First Class scout Sea Scout Scoutmaster Den Mother Robotics Merit Badge counselor Troop ( quite a few arguments) Pack ??

That 1988 decision made me first aware of some of National's oddities and I would be reminded of them several times over the years. 1. National believes they can have it both ways in all things. The nod and wink. They will open the door a crack and say that's okay, that's an exception. Sure enough, a few years later that exception is argued away because the door was opened in the first place. Female scoutmasters is okay so why not female scouts. This can be seen in membership, advancement, safety, and disability issues. Is this good, bad, contradictory, wasteful, odd, foolish, all, or something else? 2. National or Council will fight a protracted and expensive legal battle, win in the court, and then cave on their winning decision in the light of bad publicity. 3. National has no clue about publicity, advertising, scouting opinion, public opinion. I will stop there. Speaking of female membership in the BSA when did National first open the door a crack? IMHO, it was when Den Chiefs were replaced by Den Mothers in Cub Scouts. In 1930 when Cubbing began, the original concept was to have a Boy Scout in charge of the Den. His title was Den Chief. By 1932, it was recognized that the Den Chief needed the assistance of an adult and the Den Mother became an official part of the program as a co-leader with the Den Chief. By the mid-1930's, it was evident that dens with a Den Mother functioned much better than those with only a Den Chief. In 1936, BSA approved the optional registration of Den Mothers. https://www.sageventure.com/history/cub/DM.html My $0.01

A few years ago, I wore the North Star (Minnesota) Council patch as they stood up to National over membership issues. That said, I would rather go back to Community Strips - Town and State.

“My conscience is a product of the Ten Commandments, the Bill of Rights, the Boy Scout Oath and the Marine Corps Hymn,†the (President) Carter appointee said during his Senate confirmation hearing. “If I had to follow my conscience or the law, I would follow my conscience.†Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Harry Pregerson who passed last week at age 94. http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-harry-pregerson-snap-story.html Profile: Choosing between the Law and His Conscience http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-03/local/me-1882_1_harry-pregerson

Our PLC limits "cleanup" projects to just one - spring town cleanup with a focus on winter storm debris. Picking up after Mother Nature is ok, other people not so much. This corn stalk snow fence service project in Iowa, particularly the video, reminded me about that. http://www.kcrg.com/video/?vid=460185143&vid=460185143

I suspect George Lucas gets even more.

My understanding... At Council level, the Council President appoints, with the approval of the Executive Board, active members to serve as the Nominating Committee. The Council Scout Executive (CSE) serves on said Executive Board but has no vote. The CSE serves at the pleasure of the Executive Board. Another interesting aspect about unanimous votes is the quorums can be just a third, 10%, or even 5% depending on the Council bylaws and state law. Confusing yes and not to say the Council political reality may differ from its bylaws, just like units.

Ugh. I remember being blindsided by that 1988 decision. The BSA had won in the courts (1986, 1987) and it seemed the BSA was going to continue as a male-only program. But fewer men, particularly former scouts, were stepping up and instead of determining the problem(s) and fixing them, the BSA sought female adult leaders.

Was this business as usual for the BSA or was this an exception? Were you previously given prior notice of other membership changes?

Yes, that brings it back on topic. My understanding, the Executive Board "approved" the decision. I do not know if Council reps at the National meeting or CO's locally had any voice or were even notified.

Getting off topic... I am not sure what matters our council CO's may decide, nor do I know their procedural rules.

All FOS donations may go to Council but how it is spent from there can be a point of contention. Don't want yet another "study" commissioned and funded regarding merging with another council? Might as well whistle in the wind. How Council represents us and our scouts with National is definitely another point of contention. Mine has been close-mouthed about National meetings. We had no "town meeting" regarding membership change or any subsequent local announcement . What little I know about the upcoming membership change, I learned here (scouter.com ). I wonder how much value National sees in Councils. My impression is that National wants fewer. My scouting is local. My $0.02,

I no longer donate money without maintaining some control. Humbug. Your money, you select (no first come) who you think would most benefit from training and help your troop. If there are none, be thrifty and save your money. I would also keep your generosity on the down low. Only you, recipient, and maybe IRS need know. Another $0.02

Reasonable or passive? No one stood up to A when A was CC and running the troop. The SM/ASM handle scouts and the program, not the CC. No one stood up to A when A retired to Treasurer and continued to run troop. I wonder if A is following the BSA financial policies and procedures? and using past to predict the future... No one will stand up to A if A remains in troop. No amount of training will change that unless adults demand change. I sense no fire in the belllies. If A leaves everything will change? Probably not. The troop culture, in this case a CC lead troop, will likely continue and a new A will appear. And when the future retiree speaks as if he's the expert on everything forever, some people find it hard to resist. No fire in the bellies. I could ask where is your Commissioner in this drama, but unless more involved adults step up to deliver a scout-run troop, the troop culture will remain unchanged. My $0.02

As I recall, Stosh was among the first on this forum advising fellow scouters carry their own $1M personal liability insurance. Very good advice.

So at recharter next month, will packs be designated "Boys", "Family", or "Girls" ahead of January recruitment?

I think these links were posted before Oct 11, The BSA Expands Programs to Welcome Girls from Cub Scouts to Highest Rank of Eagle Scout Starting in 2018, families can choose to sign up their sons and daughters for Cub Scouts. Existing packs may choose to establish a new girl pack, establish a pack that consists of girl dens and boy dens or remain an all-boy pack. Cub Scout dens will be single-gender — all boys or all girls. Using the same curriculum as the Boy Scouts program, the organization will also deliver a program for older girls, which will be announced in 2018 and projected to be available in 2019, that will enable them to earn the Eagle Scout rank. This unique approach allows the organization to maintain the integrity of the single gender model while also meeting the needs of today’s families. http://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/press-releases/bsa-expands-programs-welcome-girls-cub-scouts-highest-rank-eagle-scout/ Family Scouting http://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/family-scouting/ updated FAQ (including OA ,Arrow of LIfe) https://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Updated-Family-Program-FAQ-10-26-17-547pm.pdf

What if the YMCA, who spun off the BSA in 1910, hosts a "coed" or "family" scouting group? I believe Sweden's YMCA does this and yes I am available for a non-virtual, fact-finding mission.

Time to lock topic NJ?