rdclements

Yes

Looks like they flipped Silver and Gold again. It would be nice if they had someone proof read these things before publishing them.

OK, first of all you don't hold the youth responsible for adult errors (or disagreements). If the Charter Org wants to define a minimum standard for SM/ASM training, that's OK. But that's a separate issue from whether a scout is "credited" with participation. If Tommy Tenderfoot wants to include the campout in question on his list of x activities, that's the Scoutmaster's decision. If he wants to use the campout on his list of trips for the camping MB, that's up to the MB counselor. In the end, any committee that would act this way has other problems that will surface in time...

Something tells me that that is a good problem to have; at least better than the other way around - we hear enough about that on this board. When I did Wolf, Bear, Webelos as a den leader, we maximized having the scouts plan and lead their own activities. We used the Denner and Assistant Denner positions and did planning meetings that worked (sort of) like a PLC. We had 12 at the end of Webelos; all crossed over and most made it to First Class. Half are still in: 4 at Life, 2 at Star. Keep the faith.

It all depends on your point of view. You may think that you're being helpful, the family in question might feel that you are harassing them. Neither of those is a "moral obligation".

Yeah Beavah, I'm right there with you. There are too many people throwing around terminology that in a legal sense may be very precise, but that gets used too loosely in practice. A scout with an axe left in the bed of his pickup truck after a campout is arrested from bringing weapons to school. Before 2001, I carried a Gerber multiplier on hundreds of flights each year. Today I would be called a terrorist. An ASM yells at a youth. Not good behavior, but then an overzealous parent complains to the charter org leadership, the story catches fire, and the guy has to find a new church because he is not safe around children. A child puts a message on facebook that he wants to shoot his teacher because he feels like he was graded too harshly. Parents jump all over the principal for not going into a lockdown because of the "terroristic threats". A teacher intervenes to stop 2 kids in a shoving match. One falls down and the teacher is fired for child abuse. If you watch enough cable news, you'll be convinced that millions of illegal aliens are coming to kidnap your children and force them to work for the taliban. They get paid to keep you watching, not keep you accurately informed. There's no end in sight.

Not all band programs are alike. Some students do not get academic credit for marching band. As a high school and college band member, I had more leadership opportunities than I had in scouting or other youth programs. The comparison between scouting and band is not correct. If a scout misses an event, that's one scout missing. If a band member misses an event, it has a serious impact on the ensemble. Back in the day, my high school band was into travel and competition - way over the top. The band at my son's high school today is much much worse. They probably average 10+ hours of practice each week, football on Friday, practice and competitions on weekends. They learn and perform only one show in a season. My college band practiced 3 hours a week and learned a new show for each home game. I encourage my young musician friends to stay with their music in college, but most drop band after high school. So why do they put up with all that just to drop out? College band is the reward for all the pain of high school band. When I've done Eagle BORs, I have rarely met a candidate who is only into scouting. These guys have multiple talents and academic interests. Most are leaders on their sports teams and other groups, like church youth programs. Forcing them to choose between these interests and scouting is just an adult ego trip. I support my scouts/venturers multiple interests and encourage them to try new things.

Hi T&S, welcome to the forums. I've had good results in having Scouts assisting at the BB and archery ranges at CS Day Camp. They're usually the activities that are sought after by the scouts on staff. When I was camp director, I had the RSO interview and select his assistants. Some of the best results cam from a few guys who had been to summer camp a couple of weeks prior and completed some of the shooting merit badges. As a result, our ranges were managed very well by those guys. -R

Fish, I've used the classic iron hook, rebar, sticks, gloves, etc. I also learned that hot iron looks just like cold iron. That's when I got serious about the gloves. The Mair lifter (http://www.mairdutchovenlifter.com) works great and gives you a solid grip on the lid. I don't own one, but I've used a few. I built a wooden box that holds a 12" DO, lifter, GLOVES, broom, and the little stand that lets you use the lid as a griddle. It's really a question of how much stuff you want to carry around. -R

"That's really good of you, RD, to take the time to go by and let these guys know what they're doing wrong. Maybe you could stop by our troop from time to time and let us know how we're coming up short." Yes, well I was one of the church's elders responsible for youth activities, so it was one of my responsibilities to discuss their program direction. If your unit is coming up short, I'm confident that you can find some help if you sincerely ask for it. The best leaders that I have known are continually seeking improvement through honest feedback. Where WB comes in is the attitude it creates in some people. I know plenty of great scouters with beads. I also know plenty who believe that because they have reached the pinnacle of scouter training, they are omnipotent.

Trevorum - sounds like you've got a pretty good start. As suggested by shortridge, the Venturing Leader Manual has it spelled out for you. Venturing magazine has extracts of the manual on-line: http://venturingmag.org/documents/vba/VenturingLeaderManual/VENTURINGLEADERMANUAL.htm It's a convenient reference, but you'd definitely need your own copy to move ahead. A couple of years back, word was that the BSA high adventure bases were giving priority scheduling to Venturing Crews. If true, that may have driven some groups to form a crew for a single trip. Since you've got a group ready to move ahead, your DE should be loving the simplicity. Get your advisors to training as soon as possible. Once you've got a crew going, plan a weekend to run your own VLSC course. It's easy to do and doing it within the unit is a lot better than attending a sponsored course.

Hey Kudu: does this sound familiar? A troop that I know well uses contracts for their leadership positions. I reminded the adult leadership that they each had signed a contract (application) to run the program as provided by BSA, and this isn't it. Of course I also pointed that out to the COR. It turns out that my opinion is not relevant due to the fact that they are WB trained and I am not. That was when I became certain that I would never go to WB. To sign up for an outing, a young man's parent fills out the Microsoft Excel workbook and emails it to a committee member who compiles the list of who is going on what trips. They also have a 2 page behavior contract that they require a scout to sign before going to summer camp. There are some good people in the unit, but I always carry a few airsick bags to their meetings - gotta be prepared.

I don't see a problem with it. Sometimes Venturing Crews form in order to do a single outing. The crew plans to disband when the outing is over. Sometimes they decide to stay together.

Hi Dennism, welcome. My son's den used the Denner position. Among other responsibilities, the Denner would manage discussions related to decisions. The Denner was the keeper of the Talking Stick, a tradition that we picked up from NA folklore. Our talking stick was an 18" piece of bamboo with feathers tied to it by strips of leather. In a conference, the leader (Denner) holds the talking stick and passes it to whomever desires to speak next. Only the person holding the stick may speak. This process helps to focus attention and increase the value of an individual's words; the scouts also felt motivated to be concise and precise. Just google "talking stick" for a better explanation. When it came time to select a Den name and associated patch, the boys wanted to branch out from the standard BSA patrol emblems. They couldn't agree on a custom design, so I showed them the Snowgum web site - Australia Scouting. They chose a great looking spider and we ordered the patches online. I had to order get other items to reach a minimum order, but it was cool stuff.

The slope is pretty slippery. Folks will come up with reasons to use POR contracts, and sometimes some of those reasons might actually seem OK at first. But look at what's behind the argument - the concept that the program, as presented by BSA, is somehow inadequate, so we're going to fix it. This is the same line of reasoning that leads to adding requirements because "he's just not ready" or setting participation standards, or any of the other junk that gets argued on this board daily. Contracts are not part of the program. Just focus on doing a good job as a volunteer and don't fix what's not broken.

Try this: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss04.aspx All scouting activities are tobacco free - not just smoke free. If your CM has to fix, he should go somewhere out of sight and smelling distance.

Port a johns are OK, so are latrines. Most of the camp sites in our council camps have a 2 holer pit vault. They pump out the vault when needed - idk how often. I think some of the state parks are using the vault type also.

Yep, I know some units that use those contracts. They are the best adult-run troops around. The contract is really helpful because then the untrained and inexperienced parents will know exactly how to do the job for their son. It's also a lot easier because the adults take care of all the annoying details like planning outings and leading the meetings. The best part is that no scout ever has to worry about failure. The troops that I know like that are also using the Troop Method so they don't have to deal with all that patrol nonsense. Lots of guys make Eagle - cause that's all that really matters on the college application - parents are happy, the charter org gets to ignore the unit, and FOS donations are nice and high. Everybody wins.

Don't count the Moms out too quickly, they may surprise you. I've also know of units who had some adult participants (usually Moms) who would discretely go use the more complete facilities in the family camp area. Sometimes the distance is too great to make that practical, your actual mileage may vary.

Yes, they are acceptable if they are properly constructed and maintained. Georgia State Park group sites are acceptable, although some are nicer on convinience than others. The BSA form 13-508 "Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form" provides a site survey checklist: 1. The camping site is clean and safe from hazards. 2. The site is not located near any natural or manmade hazards. 3. Facilities are available for the proper and sanitary disposal of garbage, with vermin-proof receptacles.These facilities are serviced regularly by the managing agency. 4. Drinking water from an approved source is provided at convenient locations and is readily accessible. 5. Emergency assistance is available 24 hours a day. 6. A public telephone is available within a reasonable distance. 7. If fires are permitted, adequate and safe equipment is provided for cooking and recreational fires. 8. Each family site is within 300 feet of a sanitary toilet facility. 9. Any individual site hook-ups provided for electricity, water, or sewer meet all appropriate local and state health codes. 10. If swimming is available, it is limited to facilities that meet state health standards. BSA safety guidelines for aquatics are followed. 11. Adequate shelter is available for program activities during inclement weather. Here's the link to the form: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/13-508.pdf

BSA published new "Wilderness First Aid Curriculum and Doctrine Guidelines" back in March. Those guidelines are also tied to the new American Red Cross course: Wilderness and Remote First Aid, which is now a standard across various ARC chapters. I'm teaching my first course using the new ARC materials in a couple of weeks. The new BSA guidelines suggest the following items in a Group Kit: Curlex/Kling (or equivalent), 3-inch rolls (2) Coban self-adhesive bandage, 2-inch roll (1) Adhesive tape, 1-inch rolls (2) Alcohol pads (12) Betadine pads (12) Assorted adhesive bandages (1 box) Elastic bandages, 3-inch-wide (2) Sterile gauze pads 4-by-4-inch (12) Moleskin, 3-by-6-inch (4) Gel pads for blister and burns (2 packets) Bacitracin ointment (1 tube) Hydrocortisone cream 1% (1 tube) Triangular bandages (4) Soap (1 small bar) or alcohol-based hand sanitizing gel (1 travel-sized bottle) Scissors (1 pair) Tweezers (1 pair) Safety pins (12) Nonlatex disposable gloves (6 pairs) Protective goggles/safety glasses (1 pair) CPR breathing barrier (1) Pencil and paper Optional items: - Instant cold compress - Space blanket - Original size SAM Splint Suggested for an Individual Kit: Adhesive bandages (6) Sterile gauze pads, 3-by-3-inch (2) Adhesive tape (1 small roll) Moleskin, 3-by-6-inch (1) Soap (1 small bar) or alcohol-based hand sanitizing gel (1 travel-sized bottle) Bacitracin ointment (1 small tube) Scissors (1 pair) Nonlatex disposable gloves (1 pair) CPR breathing barrier (1) Tweezers (1) Pencil and incident report forms More importantly than the inventory is knowing how to best use what you have, and knowing what you need based on where you're going. The new ARC WRFA course is well structured - find one near you. I like to separate my kit into small packets for particular functions. My ouch pouch is a small zipper bag with basic scrape stuff (band aids and cleaning pads), as well as insect bites and foot care. It's quicker to get those more frequently needed items. Mark your pack with where the first aid kit is so others can find it when you can't. Like Gunny, I carry a Sam Splint - just too useful for a lot of things to not have it. I also carry a tiny magnifying glass and a little duct tape.

Buff - if you're doing uploads from TM into SN, then you've got the answer. If you want something done right... At the top of the application form, there's a space for entering a current member number as a transfer. Once you've got a complete and signed form, the scout is in your unit. Put his stuff into TM and when you do the upload at recharter time, scoutnet will pick him up as yours.

OK, lots of good input in this thread. Fixing the unit is unlikely and you can expect that journey to be uphill all the way. Your son needs to consider the stay/go question seriously. However, if you choose to stay, you also are choosing to follow and support the leadership of the unit. Don't be that guy who sits in the back and complains about every little thing. You're either all in or all out.

"The Scoutmaster believed that only 3 of those 5 campouts could count as troop activities..." That's ridiculous. I'm going to surf over to failblog.org so this won't remain as the dumbest thing I've heard today.

Nice closure story. I am running my first course using the new ARC wilderness and remote first aid curriculum in a few weeks. It's always positive when you here about training saving someone.