beaverlbc

ScoutNut, I was afraid I had not made my comments clear. Let me try again. My original statement was "The Wolf Elective saying to earn one of the shooting BL has never been an issue because we have rarely had a Tiger attend DC. They mostly join in the fall so attend their first DC as a Wolf." "I am not sure I understand. A Tiger can not earn a Wolf Elective. It does not matter if he attends Day Camp or not. A boy must be a registered Wolf Cub Scout to earn a Wolf Elective. A Tiger who joins in May/June after graduating from kindergarten, can attend Day Camp that first summer as a Tiger. He can NOT get credit for any Wolf Electives during camp however. Tiger Electives - Yes, Wolf Electives - No." I was saying that my Pack rarely has any Tigers in June, so we don't send any Tigers to DC. Therefore there has never been an issue about Wolves 'having to receive a 2nd BL" because the Elective said he earned it. The only time I have known of flack about not receiving duplicate BLs is after parents find out that Webelos do receive a 2nd BL (our Pack policy because it was part of a requirement). I was not saying that Tigers could earn Wolf Electives. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

"Why is a Pack giving the Boy Scout Handbook and red epilets. These should be coming from the troop." "Why? Where is this written?" You are right. It is not written anywhere. I appologize. That is just what most of the units in my area(s) over the years has done. I had never heard of a Pack giving those items. "Also, any boy that has earned their AOL, part of the requirements for earning it is transfering to a troop." "No, it is not. The requirement states to visit a Troop you might like to join and to have a conference with the Scoutmaster. That's it. Nothing about actually joining a Troop." You are right again. I guess I need to "eat my beaver tail." I am thinking of old requirements that said you had to fill out the application and show it to your DL. Even that requirement didn'say you had to join, but it did give a stronger implication that the boy would transfer to a troop.

I have been looking for Belt Loops and Pins as Clip Art. The only thing I have been able to find is an old list--before the Academic program began. when there were only a limited number of sports. Does a site exist where I can find all (or even almost all of the BL/Pins as clip art? Can anyone direct me to such a site?

Each Pack is allowed to set their own guidelines on many aspects of the program, including the BL/Pin program. I believe that is so each unit can do what works for their area and situation. Many low income areas can not afford to buy the same belt loops over and over. However, I don't think you are allowed to prevent a boy from earning a BL only once. You can set guidelines on how often a BL will be awarded. In our pack, this is part of the information given to parents when their son joins. We do have to frequently remind them of this, because they forget. But it is in writing, so they can't say they weren't given the information. We award a BL once unless he is earning it again as a Webelos. Because I feel that if something was repeated because it was required for the Activity Pin, the boy should get the recognition. This is my personal opinion and no Committee Member has objected to the policy. We do not let them wear extra BLs that don't fit on his belt around his waist. He has to decide which he will wear and which he will keep at home. The Wolf Elective saying to earn one of the shooting BL has never been an issue because we have rarely had a Tiger attend DC. They mostly join in the fall so attend their first DC as a Wolf. SSScout said that their boys go to DC early each day to earn the Archery Pin. That surprised me. I am courious as to why since at our DC we have(not every year, but some) had the boys earn the Archery Pin during regular DC hours. They get to shoot every day--both Archery and BB Guns. Maybe at SSScout's DC there are too many kids to shoot daily. I know my son never got to do that at DC.

SctDad said "Don't forget, there are other award that one can work for other than just the BL's. Outdoor activity, crime prevention, and things like that. Something that I have been working on with the summer months coming up soon, the LNT program. I am try ing to get the boys (Mostly Tigers and 1 Wolf) to understand the LNT and how we should treat the outdoors." Yes, we need to remember all the additional extras that all ages of CS can earn. Too many get ignored.

LisaBob said "In our pack the tradition was to acknowledge that the boy had re-earned a beltloop as part of earning his webelos pins, but we did not pay for the duplicate beltloop. Instead we used the small (and much cheaper) "rocker" segments that they could put on the red vests. This seemed to work well for all involved." This is a super idea--if you are in a Council that uses rockers for activities and if they make them available for the Sports and Academic program. Unfortunately, not all councils use this program. My courrent council does not. My previous council did but not for the Academic/Sports program which was a lot younger at that time.

Goldwinger, You learn lots from the BL. Because of growth and maturity each year, even in the sports, a boy will improve his game. Don't forget the Academic BLs. There is going to be a lot more learning going on as a Webelos then the boy got from doing a BL as a Wolf.

I think the point that was made about a CM/CC being a husband/wife team is valid. Often, BUT NOT ALWAYS, having a husband/wife team in these positions can cause problems. I believe the story given by Ekmiranda as he has shared it. It is simply good practice to avoid the husband/wife team if possible. It can start too many tongues to wagging. My husband and I have been such a team in a Pack and it was fine. However, when we became involved with our current Pack and Troop, the husband/wife team was a major problem and prevented the units from growing. Finally, the Charter Rep had to remove the husband from the SM position for allowing inappropriate behavior and they both left.

The only thing I have combined with another pack on has been PWD because we have a track and they did not. It is easier when both packs are small, to have them come race with you then set up the track twice. I think doing things with another small pack would be a good idea and build relationships. This could benefit small packs, especially those that do not have a troop affiliated with it. And it would help your affiliated troops growth. However, I have invited other Webelos Dens (from other packs) to join my Webelos for activities. I like to do this with packs that have only a few Webelos because it is sometimes harder for them to complete certain requirements. But I also doso because it is more FUN to do activities with a group. I have had boys join my den to do Scientist (I do it all in a 1 day workshop) and Aquanuat (it's more fun with a group). I have never had any takers on the Webelos Only Campouts yet and had not considered the insurance issue. From now on, I will make sure the invited pack has insurance and will include them on the trip permit. See, even us experienced Scouters can learn from this forum.

This is absolutely wrong. While there are allowances made for disabled boys, even they are not allowed to just be given an award. Even they must do their best. When my disabled son was in Scouting, I spent a lot of time understanding the BSA Policies and recommendations for disabled Scouts. I also took the Disabilities Seminar at Philmont Training Center and served on a council level "disabilities committee." Where is the CC in this. Maybe that person can talk to the CM. If the CM won't listen to someone in the Pack. Get your Unit Commissioner involved. This is a District position so if you don't have one, talk to your DE. That person is trained to help units that are having problems. Talk to your District Training Chair. They may have ideas on how to convince the CM to get trained.

I agree with msnowman. The most important patch is the one that says a person is trained for his position and he wants to be the best he can be as a CM. The "knots" will come with time. The Lodge Patch shows the indeividual is in OA. There are requirements to join OA. These include a certain number of nights camping as a Scout/er; it also includes at least 1 week of summer camp with a troop. Like I said, knots and awards will be earned as he is doing his job as a CM and provideing a quality program for his Scouts.

Charging an annual fee would not work in our area. We have a lot of single parent families and low income families. So if you are going to try doing this type thing, make sure the area you draw your boys from is not low income. We have trouble just getting everyone to pay monthly dues. I sure wish we could collect all our money from popcorn. This year we did really well on popcorn and then have over $800 still owed the pack. And popcorn sales ended in Nov! We also have a number of families that just will not participate in sales.

I saw several very interesting ideas that I have noted. My husband is a flintknapper so he makes his own arrows (placed on a plaque with name & date AOL earned)to give to those earning that award. Each plaque also has a larger point (more like spear size). The boys love them and yes the real thing is much nicer than plastic arrow points--for those who have access. As I was reading through these ideas, I realized there is really two points being discussed here. What to give to those earning their AOL and what to give those boys crossing over. You can earn your AOL before the crossover month. I did see a few things that concerned me as I read these messages. Why is a Pack giving the Boy Scout Handbook and red epilets. These should be coming from the troop. Boys can not "crossover" unless they are going into a troop. Also, any boy that has earned their AOL, part of the requirements for earning it is transfering to a troop. So I did not understand a comment made by one SM that said his troop quit giving handbooks to those crossing over because so many never showed up. He said they waited until the boys registered in the fall. This is a concern because why are there not activities for the new Boy Scouts to participate over the summer? Why are they waiting to register in the fall? One leader shared how his Webelos built their own Arrow and plaque. What about the boy that doesn't complete his AOL? What does he do with his? He made it but didn't earn it.

Lisabob, I asked the same question when I read Scottteng's comments. You are a Webelos or a Boy Scout. You can not visit an event as a Webelos and earn Merit Badges. You can't attend an event as a Boy Scout and earn Arrow of Light requirements. You are one or the other. Another suggestion I have concerning "winter camping" in the deep south. Another hint for combating the cold is unknown to many Southerners. Put some of those extra blankets "under" the sleeping bag and body. Or do what those in the cold country do (even during the summer)--use a sleeping pad. THis can be bought at any Walmart or other sporting goods store--even in FL. I am a transplant from the north.

pack212scouter, I agree with you 100 percent and I tried to state that. When a child has completed a grade he is now in the next grade up. However, there are some packs that will argue that because they do not crossover boys at end of school year, the boy is not the next CS rank until the fall when their unit crosses them over. The thing to do is get Disrict help in getting the leadership of said unit to change their thinking. I also agree that boys that cross over to a troop as a group do much better then those that crossover on their own. It is not just when the troop want the boy to cross over. If that boy wants to do the work to earn his AOL, he needs the opportunity to do so. So, even if a troop wants boys to cross in March and you have 5th graders that start in the fall, he may need until the end of school. He deserves that chance.

Is Scouting grade-based or age-based? I know I am coming into this discussion late but felt I needed to comment because like tralblazermom said, this issue is very confusing. Part of the confusion comes from the fact that CS is grade-based and BS is age-based. It is almost impossible to blend these to systems together. I went around and around on this with my district recently because (as someone has already mentioned) they are in a hurry to move Webelos to BS-actually they needed more BS numbers. I believe I finally got several district people to understand where I was coming from. At least they stopped hassling me about moving my boys earlier than they were ready. When a boy does not fit the usual CS mold, the decision of placement is up to the parents and Scout. This is discribed when discussing special needs boys joining Scouts. The rule was made for disabled boys that might have special needs circumstances. And technically, those boys will eventually need a letter from his doctor to stay in CS. However, many states now have educational standards that must be passed in order to advance in school. In my state (FL) we now frequently find boys 1-2 years below their age. For example a 4th grader may be 11 and in extreme cases even a 9-10 yr old 2nd grader. Because CS is grade-based, it must be up to the parent (and boy) to determine if he will join the den of his grade or his age (or somewhere in between). The CM or other leaders can advise but the final decision must be the parents. I have never heard of a boy being kicked out of CS because of his age if he had not completed 5th grade. Some people may want to (usually because they want to list him as a BS). I almost always have boys joining at the beginning of 5th grade. If they are 11 (or almost), I explain the choices to the parent and the boy--go to BS or be in Webelos for 9 months. This includes an explaination of the importance of the Arrow of Light. And then they decide, not me and not council. Trailblazermom, I would suggest talking to your district exc. and coucil registration office and find out what your council prefers, but I do not think they will object to a boy staying in CS until the end of 5th grade. It truely is your decision and you must look at what is best for your son. Does he want to be with his 4th grade classmates? Leave him there if he doesn't object. Let him enjoy Webelos. Then, during the year ask these questions. Is he getting bored? Is he having fun and enjoying himself? Let that be the deciding factor of whether he "does the program" in 1 school year or not. I have a comment on another part of the ealier discussion also. Several people pointed out to trailblazermom that her son had the summer to work on badges. If that pack doesn't cross the boys over until fall, he is not a Webelos until fall. So the first thing you need to do trailblazermom is to get the pack to start doing the crossover at the end of school instead. For help in doing this I suggest getting your Unit Commissioner, District Commisssioner, and people from the District Training Team to talk to your Committee and find out why they feel they need to wait to advance their Scouts. A boy is considered to be in the next grade as soon as he passes a grade. So convince the unit to change their Crossover Date. Start it this year and your son will be able to work on advancement over the summer. Many packs have a May or June Crossover and then allow a boy to complete his rank from the previous year over the summer. He can't use something for his old rank advancement towards his current rank advancement. And we usually do not allow boys to focus on earning arrowpoints. If they have just a few activities to complete the 10 required for an arrowpoint, that is allowed. This entire concept is decided by each pack. It is a committee decision. One last comment. Several people stated that summer was the most important time for campouts, etc for Webelos. That is true only in some parts of the country. Down here in FL, much of the summer is too hot to do things like camping. Day Camps occur in June and a few in early July. August has almost no day-long outdoor activities for most Packs. It's just too hot.

There are some great ideas here. I especially like the idea from fgoodwin where the Scouts give out the neckerchiefs etc to the advancing rank. I plan to evaluate some of these ideas to use with my pack. To answer the original question. Yes you need to do something for those moving from Webelos I to Webelos II. I like the idea of special symbolism and have been bothered by the fact that I have nothing to give these young men since they already have their neckerchief and book. This thread is going to push me to find some special way to recognize them at crossover. We always do a crossover using a bridge of some sort (can be improvised). And always give the boy his Neckerchief and Handbook for his new rank. Something we do (to make sure everyone has a neckerchief and handbook to be given) is to purchase them and have the parent pay us for them. Those not bought (usually because someone did not attend the crossover) can be returned for credit at the Scout Shop. The Pack can't afford to buy them for everyone but that way we make sure everyone has them. And I have even had parents that could not pay right away and they use them and then return them. One year one Scout threw his hat off while crossing the bridge. Since most of the boys had a Scout hat, everyone else followed suit. Those few that did not have the hat, borrowed someones before they crossed over. For several years, we continued that tradition. We cross most of our Webelos IIs over at that end of the year crossover (mostly because we have so many Scouts start at the beginning of 5th grade). A couple of years ago we began having a Pack/Troop Campout, held close enough to our home area that no one has to travel long distances if they don't want to (or can't) camp. That way everyone in the pack can participate on that Sat evening in the crossover.

I agree with Lisabob. "A boy does NOT HAVE TO CAMP in order to earn AOL. He does, however, need to visit a boy scout oriented outdoor event. "Boy scout oriented outdoor event" is not defined in the webelos book so there is considerable latitude in terms of what a den leader may accept." Any outdoor event is acceptable as long as it is done with a bonafied troop. My Webelos have several times participated in an annual outdoor service project in our community where we work to clean up a local river (and its tributaries). We go with the Troop and help clean up a local park that is next to the river. I think someone mentioned a troop setting up an outdoor activity during a troop meeting. This could easily be done and most troops want to recruit Webelos and should be willing to set something up. This would not, however be able to do double duty and count as both a troop meeting visit and an outdoor activity with a troop.

It sounds like your Tiger Leader needs training. You don't award anything without the Scout "doing his best" to complete a requirement. Also, there is no Tiger position of Ast DL. Each Tiger Partner is supposed to take turns being the Asst to the DL. This way they all are introduced to the idea of helping and being a DL. So the wife being Ast DL doesn't exist. Sounds like she is really the DL and the husband is not. The other reason the Tiger DL and his wife need training is to know what they can and can not dictate. They are not in charge. All they can do is be in charge of the Tiger Den. The CC & CM and CR are in charge of the Pack. The current family need of the your CM is the very reason a Pack needs an Asst CM. But if you have no Asst the CC is qualified and supposed to take over as CM as a temporary measure. This is also the type of situation where you want to get your Unit Commissioner involved. They are the District person who is supposed to help resolve problems. The Pack should not be trying to resolve these issues on their own. The CC should ask the District to step in. I strongly encourage your pack to do this.

It sounds like your Tiger Leader needs training. You don't award anything without the Scout "doing his best" to complete a requirement. Also, there is no Tiger position of Ast DL. Each Tiger Partner is supposed to take turns being the Asst to the DL. This way they all are introduced to the idea of helping and being a DL. So the wife being Ast DL doesn't exist. Sounds like she is really the DL and the husband is not. The other reason the Tiger DL and his wife need training is to know what they can and can not dictate. They are not in charge. All they can do is be in charge of the Tiger Den. The CC & CM and CR are in charge of the Pack. The current family need of the your CM is the very reason a Pack needs an Asst CM. But if you have no Asst the CC is qualified and supposed to take over as CM as a temporary measure. This is also the type of situation where you want to get your Unit Commissioner involved. They are the District person who is supposed to help resolve problems. The Pack should not be trying to resolve these issues on their own. The CC should ask the District to step in. I strongly encourage your pack to do this.